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US Navy removes Captain Brett Crozier who raised alarm
page: 6share:
a reply to: Sookiechacha
And there was no chance, before Trump said anything, that he was keeping his command. I have a better chance at being named a General than he did of keeping his command as soon as that letter hit the public. No matter how you try to spin this, or how many times you say "acting", that isn't going to change. He knew he was going to lose his command, I knew he was going to lose his command, just about everyone that knows anything about the military knew he was going to lose his command. He's lucky he's only being reassigned, and didn't lose his career.
Not everyone agrees with the decision to fire him, but everyone knew it was coming. The Navy didn't have a choice. He gave them a huge black eye over this, and their only option was to fire him. I get that you have to blame Trump for this, but this time it was all about the Navy leadership. It started going around publicly the day before yesterday they were looking at removing him, as one of several options, but everyone knew what was coming.
And there was no chance, before Trump said anything, that he was keeping his command. I have a better chance at being named a General than he did of keeping his command as soon as that letter hit the public. No matter how you try to spin this, or how many times you say "acting", that isn't going to change. He knew he was going to lose his command, I knew he was going to lose his command, just about everyone that knows anything about the military knew he was going to lose his command. He's lucky he's only being reassigned, and didn't lose his career.
Not everyone agrees with the decision to fire him, but everyone knew it was coming. The Navy didn't have a choice. He gave them a huge black eye over this, and their only option was to fire him. I get that you have to blame Trump for this, but this time it was all about the Navy leadership. It started going around publicly the day before yesterday they were looking at removing him, as one of several options, but everyone knew what was coming.
originally posted by: Lumenari
He screwed up.
Correct. Former squid here myself and still follow the USN. Ignore the chain of command at your peril. The Admiral in charge of the Carrier Strike Group was RIGHT THERE. Captain circumvented him and sent several copies of his email out, one of which leaked. That's career suicide. He got a nice send off from his crew, who all now love him dearly, so he has public sentiment behind him. But he still screwed up or "sacrificed himself," if you prefer. And Trump/White House was not consulted on this, btw. Don't try to hang this on Trump. Captain panicked. You don't want that on a CVN.
Meanwhile, Back On The Theodore Roosevelt...
I can't think of a more ironic tribute to Captain Crozier's leadership than for hundreds of crew members to pack themselves together unprotected in a large crowd while a highly contagious viral outbreak sweeps through the ship. If any of them weren't infected before, they probably are now.
I'm sure the inevitable Hollywood docudrama about this imbroglio and the opportunistic political grandstanding accompanying it could well become the feel-good movie of the summer, but as Captain Crozier made his "last walk", he left behind thousands of sailors in dire need of the leadership he did not provide.
What happens to him next is far less important than what happens to them next, and that's what bugs me most about this pointless passion play.
I think the crew deserves more attention than he does, and now in addition to caring for them, the commanders who have to clean up after Captain Crozier have to deal with an antagonistic press drawn to this story like sharks to chum alongside a swelling Greek chorus of sanctimonious finger-wagging from legions of indignant armchair admirals around the world.
Mission Accomplished?
I can't think of a more ironic tribute to Captain Crozier's leadership than for hundreds of crew members to pack themselves together unprotected in a large crowd while a highly contagious viral outbreak sweeps through the ship. If any of them weren't infected before, they probably are now.
I'm sure the inevitable Hollywood docudrama about this imbroglio and the opportunistic political grandstanding accompanying it could well become the feel-good movie of the summer, but as Captain Crozier made his "last walk", he left behind thousands of sailors in dire need of the leadership he did not provide.
What happens to him next is far less important than what happens to them next, and that's what bugs me most about this pointless passion play.
I think the crew deserves more attention than he does, and now in addition to caring for them, the commanders who have to clean up after Captain Crozier have to deal with an antagonistic press drawn to this story like sharks to chum alongside a swelling Greek chorus of sanctimonious finger-wagging from legions of indignant armchair admirals around the world.
Mission Accomplished?
originally posted by: vonclod
originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: carewemust
I think you are misreading that video, they were giving him a hero's send off, chanting his name and rank like they loved the guy.
It's funny, people see what they "want" to see.
Have you ever been to a football or basketball game? That was a rally cry of support.
Yeah, I guess people DO see what they want to see..
edit on 4/3/2020 by clay2 baraka because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Majic
I honestly missed that, all those sailors packed into a small area, most likely not a single piece of ppe in sight, the irony if this triggers it really racing through the ship.
I hope not, I wish all my squid brothers and sisters an easy time... but man someone dropped the ball with that one.
I honestly missed that, all those sailors packed into a small area, most likely not a single piece of ppe in sight, the irony if this triggers it really racing through the ship.
I hope not, I wish all my squid brothers and sisters an easy time... but man someone dropped the ball with that one.
Friends Like These
One of the ironic punishments for publicly leaking sensitive documents is that doing so invites analysis from a virtually unlimited pool of critics.
I have read Captain Crozier's letter in its entirety, and I deeply resent that not only was I able to read it, but that anyone else in the world, no matter who they are, can do the same.
Aircraft carriers are critical strategic assets of major geopolitical significance, and the details of their operations are highly sensitive information. Their presence or absence can literally mean the difference between war and peace in a wide range of circumstances, both subtle and overt, and can have far-reaching consequences for both allies and adversaries.
China is actively exploiting the COVID-19 pandemic for strategic advantage, particularly in the South China Sea, and I am sure both they and their close neighbors who may be wavering between aligning themselves with the U.S. or China are following this story with great interest.
They also get to bear witness to how a now-former commander of one of the most lethal weapons platforms in the world behaves under pressure, and it's not a flattering vignette.
For anyone who missed it -- which is a group that most certainly does not include anyone in the military leadership of America's antagonists -- the full text of Captain Crozier's letter can be read in the article that led the world to this point and Captain Crozier away from the Theodore Roosevelt:
Exclusive: Captain of aircraft carrier with growing coronavirus outbreak pleads for help from Navy
Loss Of Perspective Casualty
As one of the legions of armchair admirals duly appointed by Captain Crozier's indiscretion, it's hard for me to overlook the obvious in this case, which is that while he did a good job of summarizing many of the problems facing his ship and paid lip service to the alternative of "maximizing warfighting readiness", he seems to have committed himself to pushing a radical strategy so strongly and inappropriately that it ended up costing his command.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks suspiciously like black-and-white thinking to me, and that's a very dangerous state of mind to adopt for a captain responsible for thousands of lives and enough ordnance to obliterate everyone and everything for miles around.
Without getting too systematic about it, there are several problems with Captain Crozier's reasoning, and these are by no means all of them, or even most of them:
- He assumes offloading thousands of sailors from the ship is necessary to achieve a clean ship and crew.
- He assumes keeping his crew aboard ship is an unnecessary risk.
- He assumes it is impossible to effectively isolate crew members aboard ship.
- He assumes transferring thousands of potentially infected sailors to onshore lodging will ensure the health and safety of the crew.
- He assumes approximately 10% of the crew will be capable of securing, operating, disinfecting and responding to emergencies aboard the ship.
- He assumes exposing large numbers of military and civilian personnel on the island of Guam to thousands of potentially infected sailors would not in itself create a new, much greater crisis on top of the existing one.
- He seems to have overlooked the necessity of providing for and prioritizing treatment for sailors in need of critical medical care regardless of where they may be housed.
I could go on, but I hope the point isn't lost. This isn't a problem that's as simple to resolve as Captain Crozier's letter suggests, and not only are his recommendations unlikely to protect either his crew or the surrounding population, they are quite likely to make things much, much worse and cost unnecessary lives.
Target Fixation
There's a lot more going on here than infection rates, isolation, prevention or the Theodore Roosevelt itself. The ship does not exist in a vacuum. It is docked on Guam, which is home to over 160,000 people, many of whom are at much higher risk of serious complications or death from COVID-19 than anyone aboard the ship.
It is also part of a Navy of nearly 300 ships that also need responsible leadership, sensible planning and effective management, and all of them, not just the Theodore Roosevelt, must be allocated resources in a manner that leads to the best results for the Navy as a whole.
The commanders now responsible for the safety and well-being of the Theodore Roosevelt have a moral and ethical duty not only to its crew, but to everyone involved and potentially involved, which includes many, many times more people than the crew itself.
I can only hope that they -- unlike the commander they have been forced to relieve -- keep that in mind, stay focused on the mission and get the job done without losing sight of the big picture.
One of the ironic punishments for publicly leaking sensitive documents is that doing so invites analysis from a virtually unlimited pool of critics.
I have read Captain Crozier's letter in its entirety, and I deeply resent that not only was I able to read it, but that anyone else in the world, no matter who they are, can do the same.
Aircraft carriers are critical strategic assets of major geopolitical significance, and the details of their operations are highly sensitive information. Their presence or absence can literally mean the difference between war and peace in a wide range of circumstances, both subtle and overt, and can have far-reaching consequences for both allies and adversaries.
China is actively exploiting the COVID-19 pandemic for strategic advantage, particularly in the South China Sea, and I am sure both they and their close neighbors who may be wavering between aligning themselves with the U.S. or China are following this story with great interest.
They also get to bear witness to how a now-former commander of one of the most lethal weapons platforms in the world behaves under pressure, and it's not a flattering vignette.
For anyone who missed it -- which is a group that most certainly does not include anyone in the military leadership of America's antagonists -- the full text of Captain Crozier's letter can be read in the article that led the world to this point and Captain Crozier away from the Theodore Roosevelt:
Exclusive: Captain of aircraft carrier with growing coronavirus outbreak pleads for help from Navy
Loss Of Perspective Casualty
As one of the legions of armchair admirals duly appointed by Captain Crozier's indiscretion, it's hard for me to overlook the obvious in this case, which is that while he did a good job of summarizing many of the problems facing his ship and paid lip service to the alternative of "maximizing warfighting readiness", he seems to have committed himself to pushing a radical strategy so strongly and inappropriately that it ended up costing his command.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks suspiciously like black-and-white thinking to me, and that's a very dangerous state of mind to adopt for a captain responsible for thousands of lives and enough ordnance to obliterate everyone and everything for miles around.
Without getting too systematic about it, there are several problems with Captain Crozier's reasoning, and these are by no means all of them, or even most of them:
- He assumes offloading thousands of sailors from the ship is necessary to achieve a clean ship and crew.
- He assumes keeping his crew aboard ship is an unnecessary risk.
- He assumes it is impossible to effectively isolate crew members aboard ship.
- He assumes transferring thousands of potentially infected sailors to onshore lodging will ensure the health and safety of the crew.
- He assumes approximately 10% of the crew will be capable of securing, operating, disinfecting and responding to emergencies aboard the ship.
- He assumes exposing large numbers of military and civilian personnel on the island of Guam to thousands of potentially infected sailors would not in itself create a new, much greater crisis on top of the existing one.
- He seems to have overlooked the necessity of providing for and prioritizing treatment for sailors in need of critical medical care regardless of where they may be housed.
I could go on, but I hope the point isn't lost. This isn't a problem that's as simple to resolve as Captain Crozier's letter suggests, and not only are his recommendations unlikely to protect either his crew or the surrounding population, they are quite likely to make things much, much worse and cost unnecessary lives.
Target Fixation
There's a lot more going on here than infection rates, isolation, prevention or the Theodore Roosevelt itself. The ship does not exist in a vacuum. It is docked on Guam, which is home to over 160,000 people, many of whom are at much higher risk of serious complications or death from COVID-19 than anyone aboard the ship.
It is also part of a Navy of nearly 300 ships that also need responsible leadership, sensible planning and effective management, and all of them, not just the Theodore Roosevelt, must be allocated resources in a manner that leads to the best results for the Navy as a whole.
The commanders now responsible for the safety and well-being of the Theodore Roosevelt have a moral and ethical duty not only to its crew, but to everyone involved and potentially involved, which includes many, many times more people than the crew itself.
I can only hope that they -- unlike the commander they have been forced to relieve -- keep that in mind, stay focused on the mission and get the job done without losing sight of the big picture.
edit on 4/3/2020 by Majic because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: schuyler
originally posted by: Lumenari
He screwed up.
Correct. Former squid here myself and still follow the USN. Ignore the chain of command at your peril. The Admiral in charge of the Carrier Strike Group was RIGHT THERE. Captain circumvented him and sent several copies of his email out, one of which leaked. That's career suicide. He got a nice send off from his crew, who all now love him dearly, so he has public sentiment behind him. But he still screwed up or "sacrificed himself," if you prefer. And Trump/White House was not consulted on this, btw. Don't try to hang this on Trump. Captain panicked. You don't want that on a CVN.
That's what the Joint Chiefs of Staff said on FoxNews this afternoon. The Captain totally ignored his 20+ years of experience/training regarding "chain of command" protocols. No telling what he might do during an active situation, with thousands of sailors and marines under his direct command.
a reply to: Majic
It sounds to me like the Captain realized that his Commander in Chief, and NavSec et al, were going to let his ship "ride it out, like a cowboy", like a floating experiment. Seems to me they were willing to risk sailors' and their command's lives, rather than have to deal with the issues that you've so meticulously listed above.
Without getting too systematic about it, there are several problems with Captain Crozier's reasoning, and these are by no means all of them, or even most of them:
- He assumes offloading thousands of sailors from the ship is necessary to achieve a clean ship and crew.
- He assumes keeping his crew aboard ship is an unnecessary risk.
- He assumes it is impossible to effectively isolate crew members aboard ship.
- He assumes transferring thousands of potentially infected sailors to onshore lodging will ensure the health and safety of the crew.
- He assumes approximately 10% of the crew will be capable of securing, operating, disinfecting and responding to emergencies aboard the ship.
- He assumes exposing large numbers of military and civilian personnel on the island of Guam to thousands of potentially infected sailors would not in itself create a new, much greater crisis on top of the existing one.
- He seems to have overlooked the necessity of providing for and prioritizing treatment for sailors in need of critical medical care regardless of where they may be housed.
It sounds to me like the Captain realized that his Commander in Chief, and NavSec et al, were going to let his ship "ride it out, like a cowboy", like a floating experiment. Seems to me they were willing to risk sailors' and their command's lives, rather than have to deal with the issues that you've so meticulously listed above.
edit on 3-4-2020 by Sookiechacha because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Sookiechacha
We are, of course, free to speculate all we want, but I think it's fairly clear at this point that Captain Crozier's misdeeds have not made the situation better for anyone.
We are, of course, free to speculate all we want, but I think it's fairly clear at this point that Captain Crozier's misdeeds have not made the situation better for anyone.
originally posted by: clay2 baraka
originally posted by: vonclod
originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: carewemust
I think you are misreading that video, they were giving him a hero's send off, chanting his name and rank like they loved the guy.
It's funny, people see what they "want" to see.
Have you ever been to a football or basketball game? That was a rally cry of support.
Yeah, I guess people DO see what they want to see..
I agree fully, it was support!
a reply to: Sookiechacha
The military isn't going to stand down for the virus. They can't. There are other carriers out there getting the mission done. I applaud the captain for standing up for his crew, and I don't think he leaked the letter, but you can't honestly think they're going to stop all military activity. Smaller ships have arranged quarantine areas, and had plans for dealing with the virus. At worst they could have flown the sick sailors off and medevaced them somewhere if they didn't want to pull into port.
Your mental gymnastics to blame Trump are amazing, but you do realize the President, no matter who it is, doesn't make individual decisions at this level, right? Yes, he's the Commander In Chief, but he's not sitting in the White House telling the JCS that they have to keep the Roosevelt at sea no matter what.
The military isn't going to stand down for the virus. They can't. There are other carriers out there getting the mission done. I applaud the captain for standing up for his crew, and I don't think he leaked the letter, but you can't honestly think they're going to stop all military activity. Smaller ships have arranged quarantine areas, and had plans for dealing with the virus. At worst they could have flown the sick sailors off and medevaced them somewhere if they didn't want to pull into port.
Your mental gymnastics to blame Trump are amazing, but you do realize the President, no matter who it is, doesn't make individual decisions at this level, right? Yes, he's the Commander In Chief, but he's not sitting in the White House telling the JCS that they have to keep the Roosevelt at sea no matter what.
a reply to: Sookiechacha
Or if all this was for nothing. The sailors that got sick may not even have gotten that sick.
Or if all this was for nothing. The sailors that got sick may not even have gotten that sick.
originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Majic
I don't think we'll ever know if, or how many lives he truly saved... in exchange for his command and reputation.
If Captain Crozier's own words are any guide, I'm pretty sure he hasn't saved anyone's life.
That responsibility now rests with others.
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