UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

Thank you to all those who constructively contributed to this thread. It was going well! Not sure there is any point in continuing with it.

As of today the ATS BREXIT vote is 62% in favour of leaving the EU.

My apologies to all but one for the thread going tits up.

It is my belief that we will leave the EU.

Good luck with your BREXIT hopes.

originally posted by: nonspecific
REMOVED BY STAFF

Oops sorry all.

Back on topic....

I will continue following the thread. There has been a great deal of information and many links to read up. I am all for reading links which support remaining in the EU. The last few pages have been difficult as two conversations were taking place. One which would have been more appropriate taking place via U2U.

Someone did point out early on in the thread that the OP started by inviting both view points but that the OP was biased. I do not think he tried to hide this but welcomed arguments from the remain crowd and these were challenged by both the OP and other members. Is this not what a discussion is all about?

Do we need to have a religious versus atheist type of thread were everyone will not even consider the other side's perspective. I was unsure at the beginning of this thread and then joined the out group.

I think if keep we egos out of the thread (agree to disagree if you have to) there is no reason to keep adding opinion and links. I think the OP has a done a good job so far with the links and intermittent stats.

Remember we are British. We are not by nature delicate little snowflakes that take offence to a few words typed on a computer screen.

Moving on ..

I read that ex-MI6 chief Sir Richard Dearlove stated yesterday that Brexit would be low cost to our security and also better due to two things. Control of immigrants from Europe and the repealing of the ECHR law. So no rights to family life means they can be sent back to where they came from after serving their sentences so they can no longer spread hatred..

Interestingly Sky News this evening has former CIA director General Michael Hayden agreeing with Sir Richard Dearlove's comments.

a reply to: Morrad

I don't mean to call religion a mental illness, although I don't agree with religion, but that's another thread.

I just think they have been got to. Look at the teenage girls that went over to IS. They were sucked in. hook, line, sinker. They started going away from their own families moderate views because someone took advantage of their vulnerability and slowly manipulated their minds to believe an extreme version of Islam.

Nobody suddenly wakes up to an extreme religious stand point it is bred. Or you are manipulated and taken advantage of like I a cult.

Look at the Westboro Baptist family that picket funerals, I know they aren't extreme but look at the mental manipulation and psychological tactics their leader uses on them in order for them to see his side and so what he wants them to do.

That's why we need the Muslim community to pull together and weed out the extreme imams and people with extreme views so they can't become powerful and lead people down a path that is destructive.

originally posted by: Morrad
I will continue following the thread. There has been a great deal of information and many links to read up. I am all for reading links which support remaining in the EU. The last few pages have been difficult as two conversations were taking place. One which would have been more appropriate taking place via U2U.

Someone did point out early on in the thread that the OP started by inviting both view points but that the OP was biased. I do not think he tried to hide this but welcomed arguments from the remain crowd and these were challenged by both the OP and other members. Is this not what a discussion is all about?

Do we need to have a religious versus atheist type of thread were everyone will not even consider the other side's perspective. I was unsure at the beginning of this thread and then joined the out group.

I think if keep we egos out of the thread (agree to disagree if you have to) there is no reason to keep adding opinion and links. I think the OP has a done a good job so far with the links and intermittent stats.

Remember we are British. We are not by nature delicate little snowflakes that take offence to a few words typed on a computer screen.

Moving on ..

I read that ex-MI6 chief Sir Richard Dearlove stated yesterday that Brexit would be low cost to our security and also better due to two things. Control of immigrants from Europe and the repealing of the ECHR law. So no rights to family life means they can be sent back to where they came from after serving their sentences so they can no longer spread hatred..

Interestingly Sky News this evening has former CIA director General Michael Hayden agreeing with Sir Richard Dearlove's comments.

Your comments are very much appreciated! In light of your comments, I will continue with the thread and hopefully ignore/avoid any in appropriate posts.

Mods please delete any inappropriate posts should they arise.

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It is very interesting that the former CIA DG agrees with Dearlove. I would think that they are fully aware of the increased risks remaining in the EU.

If we remain in the EU how do we protect the borders from more jihadists (or unknowns) from easily entering the UK? It seems to me that it is easier to monitor our borders if we leave. A large concern I have is that a large number of refugees (terrorists among them - a figure of 400 has been mention) will eventually get their papers in one or another EU member country and when they do they can just enter the UK quite easily if we remain in the EU. This will only add to the threat that now appears to also be from within, thus increasing the risk of a planned attack being successful.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: ForteanOrgDid you really just type that??? I find it disgusting. Are you displaying misguided emotional resonance?

Nope. But you seem to be doing exactly that yourself.

I wonder if your admirable stance would change if someone you love was murdered by these scum.

No, it would not. And it is not even admirable - it's what is at the core of civilisation: that ALL humans have the SAME rights and that taking these rights away can only be done using an open, fair process.

They have infiltrated western civilised society like putrefied septic puss, particularly in our universities.

If they are studying they aren't infringing on any rights, so I fail to see your point.

Law abiding people are losing their lives because of these abominations and you have the cheek to call them human?

Yes. And that's not 'the cheek' - it's a simple observation. If we say that human rights are for all humans, it in effect becomes a hollow, useless statement if we allow definitions of humans to exclude parties we don't favour. The Jews are humans, regardless what fascists say. Negroes are humans, regardless what the KKK says. Criminals are humans. Child molesters are humans. Religious or other fundamentalist are humans. The fact they do things we despise of makes them no less human.

I fully realize that it is hard for anybody to recognize that humans that murder, rape and steal are humans. The natural response is: "I do not want to be like that, I am human, so they can't be". But they are. And it is exactly that what should make you think - you are human too, and so you might be capable of rape, kililng and torture too. That's painful, but true. Hence, even the worst murderer has the very same rights you have - until society, after careful examination decides to take some away. But even then, all his or her remaining rights should be enforced.

They want to destroy our way of life!

And we want to destroy theirs. We bomb them, we kill them by the thousands. We are not different!

It just amazes me that people like you, and there are plenty of them, just don't have the moral conviction to stand up to these vile individuals who despise our way of life.

Because i am in favour of human rights, I am also against people that violate these rights. If you dress up a guy in an orange coverall, take him to the beach and cut his head off you are breaking a human right that never should be broken: you are taking a life. I'm against that and I will say so, and if possible prevent it. But I will also say that to those in favour of death penalties in the US. We can not tolerate TWO sets of standards, that's uncivil. The mere fact that others wipe off their behinds with human rights exists, but it does not mean I should do likewise.

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
As of today the ATS BREXIT vote is 62% in favour of leaving the EU.

But the Brits themselves seem to be in favour of staying in.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
As of today the ATS BREXIT vote is 62% in favour of leaving the EU.

But the Brits themselves seem to be in favour of staying in.

There are more people in favour of voting to leave in this thread than those voting to stay so the "poll" represents that.

As was said earlier in the thread polls are pretty useless as it all depends on the demographics of the location the poll is taken.

It does look like the "leave" vote is gaining ground though but until the votes have been counted it is all just speculation and picking the poll that best suits your own viewpoint.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
No, it would not. And it is not even admirable - it's what is at the core of civilisation: that ALL humans have the SAME rights and that taking these rights away can only be done using an open, fair process.

Contradictory much?

If ALL humans have the SAME rights .... Why are you disagreeing that terrorists
cannot be treated in much the same way as they have treated others?

*Human Rights* work both ways at the other end of one persons *Human Rights*
is another persons rights being eroded.

I found this interesting in the Guardian today.

But those seizing on the Brussels atrocity as an argument for Britain to leave – largely based on the symbolism of EU institutions being based in the city – have abandoned any moral authority to protest about a campaign of fear.

They are arguing that remaining within the EU means you and your family are at heightened risk of being murdered by terrorists. This is illogical. Four Yorkshiremen were behind the 7/7 attacks; two east Londoners from Christian families murdered Lee Rigby. The atrocities in Paris and Brussels are largely the work of people born and raised in France and Belgium, often from families repulsed by the ideologies of their sons.

The peddlers of fear are playing a dangerous game. If the British people decide to leave the EU, it should be on the basis of an informed debate – one that they are not currently being offered. It is important that they make a decision in the belief that the interests of the country, and their own futures, would be better served outside the EU.

This reflects nonspecific's argument with RP2SticksOfDynamite although approached in a different way.

To leave the EU over Brussels would be a huge victory for terror

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I will agree to disagree so as not to detract from the thread. You really do need to update yourself with what is happening in UK universities before passing comment on it.

a reply to: Morrad

Four Yorkshiremen were behind the 7/7 attacks

Four Pakistanis living in Yorkshire were behind the 7/7 attacks.

two east Londoners from Christian families murdered Lee Rigby.

Two Africans living in London murdered Lee Rigby.

The atrocities in Paris and Brussels are largely the work of people born and raised in France and Belgium, often from families repulsed by the ideologies of their sons.

The atrocities in Paris and Brussels are the work of North Africans living in Europe.

All Muslims.

But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: Morrad

Four Yorkshiremen were behind the 7/7 attacks

Four Pakistanis living in Yorkshire were behind the 7/7 attacks.

two east Londoners from Christian families murdered Lee Rigby.

Two Africans living in London murdered Lee Rigby.

The atrocities in Paris and Brussels are largely the work of people born and raised in France and Belgium, often from families repulsed by the ideologies of their sons.

The atrocities in Paris and Brussels are the work of North Africans living in Europe.

All Muslims.

But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

The 7/7 bombers and Lee Rigby killers were all born in England though.

How will leaving the EU lead to less home grown extremists?

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
As of today the ATS BREXIT vote is 62% in favour of leaving the EU.

But the Brits themselves seem to be in favour of staying in.

Then the STAY mob have nothing to worry about. However, the official polls are strange and could be very misleading. Be interesting to see what they report at the end of April.

originally posted by: eletheia
If ALL humans have the SAME rights .... Why are you disagreeing that terrorists
cannot be treated in much the same way as they have treated others?

Because that would violate human rights. Human rights are quite specifically described in this document.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

'Human rights' are just a human philosophical construct.
Just ask anyone living in Saudi Arabia.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

Because that would violate human rights. Human rights are quite specifically described in this document.

You don't get it do you?? There is nothing in there, that any laws and decent

society doesn't advocate. It idealistic concept at best and it still doesn't answer

my question ....


A murderer, a rapist, a terrorist has taken away the *Human Rights* of another


which means that there can be no such thing as human rights as only one is getting

theirs.

# Everyone has the right to life liberty and security of person

Everyone???? The raped??? The blown up??? The beheaded??? How do you intend

they get their *Human Rights*

No one should be subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment

Tell that to those responsible for enslaving the captured men and women,

raping and beheading .... Oh sorry you cant do that they have *Human Rights*


Your having a laugh!!