Seattle sees fallout from $15 minimum wage, as other cities follow suit

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus


50-60 was a light week for me when I owned my businesses, I worked 10:30 to 9:30 Monday thru Thursday and until 11 on Friday/Saturday and Sunday until 8. I alternated every other Thursday and Sunday off.

Ya, I run a small business. I'm aware, painfully aware that it takes non stop work for quite some time to get things going smoothly.

I'm also aware I pay higher taxes because of the tax dodging super massive corporations and I'm also in competition with these firms who can railroad, undercut and sandbag small businesses. Especially with larger contracts.

I also understand how large firms and extremely wealthy individuals make money out of thin air in very unproductive ways with teams of accountants, financial advisers and tax attorneys.

a reply to: notmyrealname

Facts bother you?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

So I am not allowed to respond to replies intended for others? Or just YOUR replies....?

There is little need for a forum with that logic.

Again, what's your point, please?? * batting lashes *

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JeanPaul
How did you afford college?

I did not complete my freshman year but I was paying my own tuition.

What sort of work did you do to pay for rent, transportation/car insurance, electric/gas, healthcare, food and clothing while also saving? Details?

I had a part time job working for Supermarkets General, who owned Pathmark supermarkets among other holdings, and was offered a full time position at 18. I ended up taking this and by the time I was 23 I was making well over $45,000 per year with full benefits.

Ha! Worked for a supermarket making $45k a year. Ya, the checkout clerks at Safeway make around $20 an hour.

Do you pay your employees $45k a year?

That is sort of a myopic view wouldn't you say? I have no way of knowing however I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the $45,000 that AugustusMasonicus is referring to was not a recent job and most likely the equivalent of much more in buying power than if it were the same 45K today. If you are going to measure two things for comparison, you might want to normalize the scale first.

a reply to: JeanPaul
Not at all, just tired of hearing all the incessant sob stories from the people placing blame for things in all the wrong places. If your company cannot get ahead, then your business plan needs an overhaul. Innovation leads to improvement.

First part was, as I can tell from your posts that you are not a complainer, just a confirmation that your situation is different to the one of the original poster that started my discussion.

The separate part, I was talking about the euphemism of the word 'you' relating my thoughts relating to my previous post response. I was not directing the you part to you at all; do you know what I mean?

a reply to: notmyrealname

It arrived. I get it, too.

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Pinke
a reply to: notmyrealname

It's not part of a single industry vanishing -- it's an entire category of labor vanishing combined with a shrinking pool of talented people actually required to get things done. Knowledge based economy sums it up.

Think one or two people being able to run a farm or mine site from their living room producing enough resources for several hundred or even thousand others. How does your ordinary average person compete with that?

Are you elevating those that are not suffering as much to a better class of people than average? What is it that you think separates the average from the above average?

I'm making no value statement regarding people's worth as a class or person.

In our present system there are many factors which society believes elevates a person's worth. In our future system (which is happening as we speak) more people will need to be left behind by necessity unless we change our culture / system to adapt to it.

Some people are okay with this idea, they believe the human race needs an enema. Others not so much.

originally posted by: notmyrealname
a reply to: JeanPaul
So move to France and love their system.

I simply do not have the time not the patience to rebut you tired old story about why Higher taxes did not stifle the economy after WWII nor as to why the same scenario would NEVER work now and on and on and on….

I will be happy with the fact that people that think in a similar manner as you collect in areas that are all going bankrupt right now. You will continue to shoot holes in your own boat to help some demographic all the while not understanding that those actions cause the problems.

Keep going and I will name a section of the next museum of dead monetary policies after your username.

Ya ya. The USA was left with its industrial base in tact, came out the winner in the Bretton Woods conference and gained a wider consumption base and access to Britians old colonies thus sparking growth and a financial base for higher taxes. Right?

Ya well, record amounts of profits are being made today. In large part from offshoring production and hiding money in offshore accounts/tax havens.

I don't have that luxury, nor do most small business owners. Nor do middle class workers earning a paycheck or salary. We pay taxes whilst large firms dodge them which makes us pay even more taxes.

The point is, we're all being screwed by super massive corporations. There's really no need to defend them.

And if you want to talk about bankrupt monetary policy look no further than the Chicago school/monetarism. The Austrians such as Mises are just as irrelevant. As is Hayek. I'd question the New neoclassical synthesis as well. Pretty much the entire field of economics is snake oil. Half truths, assumptions, distortions, warped statistics, manipulated data etc. 80% bull crap, 10% guesswork and 10% chaos.

Edit typos

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JeanPaul
How did you afford college?

I did not complete my freshman year but I was paying my own tuition.

What sort of work did you do to pay for rent, transportation/car insurance, electric/gas, healthcare, food and clothing while also saving? Details?

I had a part time job working for Supermarkets General, who owned Pathmark supermarkets among other holdings, and was offered a full time position at 18. I ended up taking this and by the time I was 23 I was making well over $45,000 per year with full benefits.

Ha! Worked for a supermarket making $45k a year. Ya, the checkout clerks at Safeway make around $20 an hour.

Do you pay your employees $45k a year?

That is sort of a myopic view wouldn't you say? I have no way of knowing however I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the $45,000 that AugustusMasonicus is referring to was not a recent job and most likely the equivalent of much more in buying power than if it were the same 45K today. If you are going to measure two things for comparison, you might want to normalize the scale first.

He worked for a supermarket at age 23 with no degree and made over $45,000 a year. That's how he started his business. According to him.

In an earlier post he said it's not his concern what his employees make or that its not his responsibility to make sure they have food, clothing and shelter. My point is, it sure as heck sounds like his early employer took good care of him, which is how he was able to survive and also save money to start a business.

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Do you pay your employees $45k a year?

Some of them made much more than that.

a reply to: Ultralight

The point is your reply was out of context and makes no sense. You can contribute as many non sequitur posts as you like, it does not mean they will be relevant to me.

And if you want my point read the other posters comments to whom they were addressed otherwise you are being purposefully obstuse.

Thanks everyone for the interesting read so far. I thought I'd start in quoting this post because I thought it didn't get the attention it deserved:

originally posted by: Vector99

I wouldn't call someone willing to work 40 hours a week or more the "palm up crowd"

If there were no unskilled workers there would be no minimum wage. 7 billion people can't be millionaires though, so I ask you what is the solution then?

What is the solution? What is the solution? How do we, as a society, fix this? It's okay to be average. Average people should be able to get by comfortably if they're willing to work for it. I'm not saying that I'm in favor of a minimum wage hike, but I think that life in this society is harder for the average bloke than it needs to be. With the resources we have at our disposal in this country we should have opportunity falling out our ears. Sadly this is not normally the case. Life can be rough and I'm no stranger to hard work; I just think that life should be easier for the average button pusher/burger flipper(and everyone else). While making no other specific argument, survival should not have to be so difficult for the average man.

originally posted by: Ultralight
a reply to: amicktd

I didn't say you said that. I simply asked you a question as your post addressed the $50K. Is this a low wage to you? If so, why? If not, what are your parameters that define middle class wages? Thanks.

Yes, I believe its about the minimum you can make to actually provide properly for the average of 2 kids. I broke it down based on my area, which is one of the cheaper areas in the United States (Midwest) on average yearly cost.

Average Yearly Costs:

Mortgage: $10800 900/month
Car & Insurance: $3600 300/month
Food: $7200 600/month
Utilities: $3600 300/month (This is usually higher, but I'm pretty energy efficient since I work a lot)
Child Care: $7200 600/month (This is what I currently pay, but have seen higher costs in different areas that I've lived)
Healthcare/Dental: $3000 250/month

Total yearly costs: $35200

Here is a list of things I didn't include, but are pretty much required these days:

College funds
Sports/activity costs
Birthdays
Holidays
Car problems
House repairs
Doctor bills
Student Loans
Cell phones $1000/year
Cable and Internet $1500/year

This list also doesn't account for any type of savings or vacations, plus I'm sure I forgot a few things. Basically based on my list you work, go home, never do anything unless its for the kids and it still costs upwards towards 50K/year. Another thing I didn't account for is child support. A lot of father's out there have these same type of costs, yet have to pay another $10000/year in child support. So if 50K/year is a middle class wage I guess it means your broke if your in the middle class.

In today's world, I feel you need to make around 75K minimum to live comfortably and not have to worry about being able to take care of the necessities. That's what I would consider middle class. This all goes back to wages though. The inflation rate in this country is astounding while the wages have barely moved over the past 10-20 years. It's definitely time for change, but us employee's that work our ass off to just make it seem to get shunned when we complain.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I sense mysoginy, short man's syndrome, or just plain need to dominate in your response. In any event, your warts are showing.

Your reply to the poster was unclear to me in its relevance, so I asked you what was your point. We're you trying to elevate your status in your reply or simply making a statement without the snark? Hard to tell, so I asked. Snark is what I received in reply and therein got my answer.

Thank you for making it obvious.

originally posted by: Ultralight
I sense mysoginy, short man's syndrome, or just plain need to dominate in your response. In any event, your warts are showing.

Me thinking you are obtuse has nothing to do with whether or not I hate women, my height or a desire to dominate people.

The poster made this absolutist claim:

originally posted by: fshrrex
The secret sauce to being a successful entrepreneur is apparently coming from a family with money.

I replied:

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
I am a first generation citizen and I bought my own businesses with money I saved, not inherited.

Your reply to the poster was unclear to me in its relevance, so I asked you what was your point. We're you trying to elevate your status in your reply or simply making a statement without the snark? Hard to tell, so I asked. Snark is what I received in reply and therein got my answer.

My reply was concise and straight forward, your inability to contextualize what I wrote in relation to his initial comments is not my problem nor your attributing superfluous emotion to it when there was none.

a reply to: amicktd

It looks like childcare and food take a sizable chunk on your budget. Based on this, children would play the highest
factor and not wages? So perhaps people should reassess having children on the wages they can expect to earn in their careers?

I think the gross pay and not money left after your expenses should be the marker for middle class determination simply because everyones lifestyles and life choices are too various.

We should work to not have to classify each other. In the end we all take nothing material with us when we die.

a reply to: Ultralight

Well based on that logic, I guess nobody should have kids in Indiana according to the statistics.

Indiana Household Income
According to the Census ACS 1-year survey, the median household income for Indiana was $47,529 in 2013, the latest figures available. Compared to the median US household income, Indiana median household income is $4,721 lower. 2014 Census ACS data (including 2014 Indiana household income numbers) will be released in September of 2015. Indiana median family income and per capita income for Indiana are shown further down.

Link

I think the gross pay and not money left after your expenses should be the marker for middle class determination simply because everyones lifestyles and life choices are too various.

Sorry but I completely disagree with that logic as well.

a reply to: amicktd
Solution is simple:

1. Stop blaming others for the situation.

2. Change the system that you think is broken or change you.

3. Stop thinking that it is easy for me to say….

Anyone can make noise about what is wrong and I see a lot making statements calling for more government intervention which is what exacerbated this situation in the first place. Your choices led to your situation.

I am not saying that things are not difficult these days for many. I am saying that more government in your life is not the long term solution.

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JeanPaul
How did you afford college?

I did not complete my freshman year but I was paying my own tuition.

What sort of work did you do to pay for rent, transportation/car insurance, electric/gas, healthcare, food and clothing while also saving? Details?

I had a part time job working for Supermarkets General, who owned Pathmark supermarkets among other holdings, and was offered a full time position at 18. I ended up taking this and by the time I was 23 I was making well over $45,000 per year with full benefits.

Ha! Worked for a supermarket making $45k a year. Ya, the checkout clerks at Safeway make around $20 an hour.

Do you pay your employees $45k a year?

That is sort of a myopic view wouldn't you say? I have no way of knowing however I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the $45,000 that AugustusMasonicus is referring to was not a recent job and most likely the equivalent of much more in buying power than if it were the same 45K today. If you are going to measure two things for comparison, you might want to normalize the scale first.

He worked for a supermarket at age 23 with no degree and made over $45,000 a year. That's how he started his business. According to him.

In an earlier post he said it's not his concern what his employees make or that its not his responsibility to make sure they have food, clothing and shelter. My point is, it sure as heck sounds like his early employer took good care of him, which is how he was able to survive and also save money to start a business.

So by that logic, when a person is smart, hard working or industrious and an employer recognizes that, the employer "gave something"? No the person EARNED something; what they did with that something that is completely up to them.

If you feel that you are "giving" your employees something then you business model is skewed. As an employer, your job is to ensure that your company remains competitive in the market to ensure that the business and it's employees survive (hopefully prosper). If you have a mindset that you are "giving" money to your employees then you will be looking for someone in the chain to "give" you something also. I do not have that mentality.