Elon Musk Debuts the Tesla Powerwall

Elon Musk unveils the Powerwall battery. Can't help but like this guy and his demeanor, here he presents the Powerwall priced at $3,500 US and is solar power ready. What is really cool is the entire production was powered by these batteries from solar collectors on the roof w/o aid from the power grid.

About time, we desperately need new viable energy sources now.

S+F this is amazing technology. I'm glad somewhere out there has the courage to get this done.

a reply to: ugmold

Cool....This guy never ceases to amaze me with his determination to change things for the better.

Yea, this guy does some cool projects that I would do if I was rich.

Too bad his money came from founding payscam.

Does anyone know what the advantage is to this product vs a bank of batteries?

I don't like him, that guy is the antichrist and want to install a hellish device that will burn my house down...


Someone had to say it no?

Li-ion batteries don't last too long i seriously doubt the 10 years performance they advertise, and...



having a 100kg one on my wall scare me a lill, I'm sure they made everything possible so nothing like that happens, but...

a reply to: Mandroid7

No need to be rich! Though, it certainly helps with publicity..

Either way, I feel these are all transitional technologies that will be outdated shortly. That doesn't make them less important, as they pave the way.

The only part of our future that looks bleak to me is humanity itself. The rest is thrilling and inspiring.

a reply to: Indigent

Lithium ion batteries can get pretty nasty.

This guy had a flashlight in his mouth when its battery exploded...

link

I deal with some wicked batteries with my flashlight obsession, and the trick is to buy the regulated versions with power control boards or regulators inside of the battery. It avoids over drawing, overheating and explosions.

I wonder what the purpose of this new product is. I don't see any advantages to it. It doesn't have any performance advantages to it, as far as I can tell.

Looks kinda like a new Apple product, shiny case with outdate tech in it. You would get much higher amperage from a bank of standard deep cycle golf cart type batteries.

Is there something I'm missing here?

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Mandroid7

No need to be rich! Though, it certainly helps with publicity..

Either way, I feel these are all transitional technologies that will be outdated shortly. That doesn't make them less important, as they pave the way.

The only part of our future that looks bleak to me is humanity itself. The rest is thrilling and inspiring.

I am definitely a garage inventor and tinkerer, but the projects I'm talking about are his spacecraft projects. Bookoo bucks involved there. That is some inspiring work. I would love to work with spacecraft design, new propulsion an exotic composite skins. Build a horizontal takeoff personal spacecraft.

Anyway, it just seems like a low performance battery pack sold at a premium. Like a bunch of drill batteries inside a plastic box with some leds and a regulator.

I agree on the importance of the transitional tech though. Very important. We need to bring out the tech that creates vs just stores the energy to get anywhere.

a reply to: Mandroid7

I'm kind of the same, but one of the facets of my own research is actually space exploration.

I completely agree though, especially when it comes down to acceptance. That concept is simply that new technologies make more headway when introduced by someone who is wealthy, popular, etc.

Even something as simple as the intermittent wiper on cars is devoured by those with more money and resources. I actually feel this conflict of profit versus progress hinders our species greatly.

Can you imagine what would happen if a garage inventor designed some new space craft and tried to go through normal channels?

Well I went and did a little research after I watched the video. I am always a big fan of this type of tech, but seem to continually get disappointed when I dig deeper into most things touted as the next big invention. So here you go, the other side of this presentation which he completely glosses over and uses an almost slide of hand trickery to get people to look the other way and not notice the glaringly obvious fact this isn't cheap at all. In fact it will be way out of reach for 80% of us I'd guess. So here you go the other side of the powerwall.

So how much is that battery power going to cost? Setting aside for a moment the cost of making that electricity in the first place, let’s look at just the cost of using the battery to store it and get it out again. Researcher Winfried Hoffman, the former CTO of Applied Materials AMAT +1.01%, has done some interesting work on the falling costs of battery power. He figures that for a lithium-ion system with an initial installation cost of $400 per kwh capacity, 80% efficiency and ability to run 5,000 cycles, the average cost of stored electricity will be 15 cents per kwh.

This might be conservative. Solar installer Sungevity is working with a German battery company called Sonnenbattery, which claims it can do 10,000 cycles.

But this calculation might also not be conservative enough. It’s unclear how many cycles you could expect to get out of Powerwall. Tesla says its 7 kwh Powerwall can cycle daily, while the 10 kwh system would cycle weekly. The cost of the battery is amortized over the total amount of electricity cycled through it over its lifetime. The less you use it, the higher your average unit cost.

Either way, 15 cents per kwh for battery storage seems ball-park reasonable.

To get your real electricity cost, you have to add to that 15 cent battery charge whatever you’re paying for that electricity in the first place. Since the idea is that batteries will work in tandem with solar, we’ll look at what Tesla’s sister company SolarCity SCTY +0.58% charges its customers. According to SolarCity, a customer pays no upfront costs for a system, but then gets dinged for 15 cents per kwh of power generated. In the contract, SolarCity has the ability to increase that rate 2.9% a year, which doesn’t seem like much, but would end up raising your cost per kwh above 20 cents by the end of the 20 year term. So adding together your 15 cents per kwh for solar power plus the 15 cents to cycle a kwh in and out of the battery, and you’re looking at 30 cents per kwh for electricity.

I think 30 cents per kwh is bonkers. At my home in Texas I pay 10 cents per kwh to Reliant Energy for electricity that is mostly generated by natural gas burning power plants.

The idea of course is that the solar panels on a 100% solar home would power the house during the day while simultaneously charging the Powerwall batteries, which would keep the power going at night. In order for that to work, you’d need a much bigger than average solar system. SolarCity says its average system generates 1,400 kwh a year. Given that the average home uses 10,800 kwh per year, your home would need 8 average-sized systems if it were to generate enough power to get you off the grid entirely while also providing enough excess electricity during the day to charge up your Powerwall.

And here’s where the economics of the Powerwall break down. If you do not have a big enough solar system to get your home entirely off the grid, then there is simply no point whatsoever in paying 30 cents per kwh to get electricity via the Powerwall. At night, when you’re not generating solar power, you could simply get your electricity from the grid. For 10 cents a kwh.

Source

a reply to: RickyD

That shouldn't come as too much of a surprise, but I think the issue is systemic more than anything.

Patents, which are a mainstream mainstay (heh) of invention, are kept from being awarded to an item that disrupts economic stability. A free, or low cost, source of energy would most certainly destabilize huge players in the economic field. So, unless it is introduced by them, the Invention Secrecy Act can be used to squash competition until the corporations are able to implement them in a way that won't disrupt the status quo.

a reply to: ugmold

This is great and I am not afraid to be unreserved in my enthusiasm for all facets of this.

Private company releases state of the art pioneering product while maintaining open source patent with the presumption of defending its market position through leadership in quality and cost.

However, the $1.3 billion in incentives for its gigafactory project concerns me.

There is also aluminum ion which promises to be the next big jump. One would presume that these would be upgradable.

Of course, nothing is mentioned of what the cost to build and maintain solar panels actually is but, the concept is sound wherever the intermittent energy can be found.

I personally prefer flywheels or a combination of the two as the most efficient energy storage. Hydrogen/oxygen thermolysis for fuel cells has certain benefits too.

Ultimately, there will always be a need for more power so nuclear needs to get similar entrepreneurial treatment.

a reply to: Mandroid7

The real advantage: purchasing a wall sized UPS for our Avaya phone switch cost us about 30k when we bought it 15 years ago.

He is reduced the price by 90%..

That means you can have a UPS that stores enough power that it is essentially a back up generator for under $4k. Or you can buy a Generac (with its 2 diesel motors) for $80k, and pay $2500/yr for a support agreement to keep it functioning.

Cost efficiency. It is a "breakthrough" too.

Brilliant!

Sign me up for THAT!

His pre-orders will be booming and his investors will be jumping for joy!

The whole world is so exasperated by the lack of technology that supports humanity and our planet. This is what we've been waiting for!

Thanks very much for your post.

a reply to: ugmold

Great presentation and I hope if he pulls this through, he deserves to be our first Tillionaire for this tech and releasing the patent so patent trolls stop holding back humanity from progress .

Although I wish he would have used his Billion dollars for the car analogy

$3500: for the battery.

$?: for the solar panels to power the whole house and be off the grid like say FL? (not to speed on cost of them)?

$?: yearly maintenance cost for panels and batter?

$?: Replacement and/or life expectancy costs?



But if he fails I hear blacklightpower is just around the corner with turning water to free energy , they just need a few more investors before actually making a product.

a reply to: interupt42

If you read the Forbs article I linked above it will tell the other side of this story. Sure he has made the battery more efficient however they still don't last long enough to be cost effective. Not only that but what is never mentioned is the cost of solar panels and their installation as well as the other components required to operate a solar power system and convert that DC to AC for your consumption. I had a company out of Norfolk Va come to give an estimate for my folks after the last hurricane that passed through Va. My folks wanted to see the cost for a system to run their house or possibly just a backup system. If I remember correctly the estimate for the entire house was about $40,000 and to run just the essentials it was about half of that. So yippee I can buy my batteries for $3,500 and my inverter for around $4,000…but then we have panels, mounting hardware (most systems also include some form of tracking so they move and follow the sun), Wiring (copper ain't cheap), and labor. Then there is maintenance as well as the cost to replace things as they wear out. Also look at this…

the average 6.7 kw system generates 1,400 kWh per kW per year, for total generation from an average system of more like 9,000 kWh per year.

Given that the average home uses 10,800 kwh per year

So to get off the grid you would need a bigger than 6.7Kw system and as I have dug around a bit I saw people discussing that exact system on a tesla forum with quotes from $21,000-$32,000. So if you have a good $40,000-$50,000 to toss at this sure it's an awesome option, but how many of us can swing that…I sure can't, not the way the economy is right now.

ETA: I would like to reflect that the Forbs article has been edited due to the confusing way SolarCity lists their system stats…that has been fixed in the article but the numbers as I show here still don't quite do it. Also take into account not only do you need to provide the average power consumed during day light hours but also at the same time you need enough to charge the batteries so you can have power through the hours of darkness as well…So basically you need double the average use.

a reply to: RickyD

Sure he has made the battery more efficient however they still don't last long enough to be cost effective. Not only that but what is never mentioned is the cost of solar panels and their installation as well as the other components required to operate a solar power system and convert that DC to AC for your consumption.

Yeah that was what I was getting at on my post:

$3500: for the battery.

$?: for the solar panels to power the whole house and be off the grid like say FL? (not to speed on cost of them)?

$?: yearly maintenance cost for panels and batter?

$?: Replacement and/or life expectancy costs?

none the less, I think its not fair to nullify his contributions towards a big component of going of the grid: The battery.

Than you have the release of patent for the company which is unheard off in the greed corporate world we live in.

I was following the concept of Tesla's new battery for quite some time now, and I'm very excited for it's release. I'm in the works of forming an off grid community and batteries charged by solar energy is our main concern. Unfortunately it wont be until another few years before we will be able to set up our personal grid, but the timing of this debut is perfect nonetheless.

If anyone manages to purchase one, please post a video with more information on how well it performs!

a reply to: interupt42

I don't mean to downplay the battery itself as it is a step forward (even if it is kind of outdated tech and can be quite dangerous) I just feel like the angle he presented was a feel good don't think about it type of manner and I think a lot of people who will get excited about this like I almost did would be shocked to find the real cost. Now of course he won't mention that in his promotion because that doesn't bring in investors and customers right? That is truly what he is looking for is investors…if you take a trip to SolarCity that's what a lot of the site is about.

TBH I don't like Elon but I will say he isn't all bad…he just misrepresents what he is most concerned with and it's not green power but money from those who support green power. Also I'm surprised to find out the Gigaplant he is building got 1.2 Billion in public funds. I mean people's tax money paid for that right? Now he will use the money for the plant to build a product that you will pay 3-3.5K for and still be missing about 30K worth of gear for it to actually be as sufficient as advertised.

In short…good idea, glad it's open source, but way misrepresented and just furthers my ill feeling towards someone I think only cares about the bottom line profit he can gain…I mean lets be honest you don't get as rich as him by putting others concerns first...

One day I'll have a nice underground bunker. This will be in it.