BIBLE: Unerring Word of God? Or manipulated by satan since Constantine?

Disclaimer: Please, if you are just going to bash the belief in Jesus, or state how ignorant believers of any faith are, move along, nothing to see here.

I have this dilemma as of late.
I was raised in a Baptist church, and was taught the Bible IS the UNERRING Word of God. To question that is evil wrought by satan.

There were always parts of the bible that just didn't make sense to me.
I am not referring to the supernatural parts or even the slaughter of whole tribes. I believe that is related to the fallen ones and is for another thread.

One part, why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? First it doesn't seem like something God would do to 'test' man, and Abraham never questioned the spirit like Jesus tells us to, and an Angel of the Lord stops him at the last second. Why didn't the Angel tell him to do it in the first place. Is it possible he was tempted by satan and God stepped in at the last moment to prevent this evil act?
First John 4:1

1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;…

Please don't focus just on that example. My question is much bigger than that.

All through the early days of the church, there was no 'written' Word. All the inspiration for spreading the Gospel was through the indwelling of Holly Spirit.
In fact. John 1:1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Have I been, as MANY others, wrong in thinking the Bible IS the PERFECT Word of God.

Is studying the Bible NOT what God wants us to do? Is it time misplaced, and encouraged by satan? Time that should be spent seeking His spirit, seeking communion with Him, seekin the indwelling of His Spirit?
There are a couple videos I found VERY thought provoking:

Does God tempt man?
James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Have I been misled?
Is it possible the Bible was assembled as a control tool by Constantine. To appease the growing Christian populace, to divide it. Used as a tool by satan to lead astray?
Look at all the focus on different dogmas, all the time and effort wasted on mans interpretation.
All the different Bible versions.
How many different sects of Christianity fight over different interpretations of the Bible?
Who appointed the Pope as Christ on earth?
The Spirit in me cries out, this isn't what HE wants for us.

Should Christians instead be seeking to nurture a personal relationship with God, through Jesus. Asking for indwelling of the Holy Spirit, to guide us and give us discernment?

This has not been an easy thing for me to consider.

I do not feel EVERY word in the Bible is false. I just feel we need discernment, from the Holy Spirit, to distinguish Truth.

But it FEELS right, like the Holy Spirit has guided me to this revelation.
I have spent a lot of time praying and asking Him to show me the Truth.

He did say in the latter days all would be revealed.

I know there are a few Bible scholars on ATS, and many that are very knowledgeable as to the process that went into assembly of our modern Bible.
I appreciate any and all constructive input on this subject.
If some feel the need to belittle, mock or antagonize due to the subject matter, please try to refrain.

I look forward to learning TRUTH, whatever that truth is.
Thank you for your time,
Steve

ETA: I hope that was coherent and not rambling to much.
It was something I had to get out there and 'style' wasn't my focus.

a reply to: stosh64

Short answere to your title is "Both". Dont have time toel read the entire thread, but will when I have time.

To me it's both. I think there's truth in there as much as there's fiction. No doubt it's been edited and reworked to fit certain agendas. Personally my feeling is the Church (the Vatican) has been infiltrated or was always deliberately pushing people down the wrong path.

But it has to be said, no matter how much truth there is, there will always be people who will rewrite it, misinterpret it or even try to redefine certain parts for whatever reasons.

originally posted by: stosh64
Disclaimer: Please, if you are just going to bash the belief in Jesus, or state how ignorant believers of any faith are, move along, nothing to see here.

Can i at least point out that you have set up a false dichotomy. There are more than just two possibilities when discussing the validity of the bible. I find it extremely unfunny when confronted by the apparent inability of some people to see that the bible is actually just a collection of stories portraying the thoughts of long dead cultures.

Does the possibility exist in your mind that none of these stories are divinely inspired?

If you are really in search of the truth, you should read about the history of the books themselves. I find it fascinating how these stories became the "bible" that people put so much faith in.

a reply to: stosh64

Now.. a couple things here. The Word of God is a living Word that is Jesus Christ. To hear from HIM in whatever manner fits you best one must give up this world and die the spiritual death - rising to new life in Christ Jesus.

There is a written word, written by men who experienced God the same way I have, and it is written in their understanding of what they were shown. I will word something different, or use a different example than someone who lived 2400 years ago, but it is the same exact concept.

In this manner the Bible IS actually the written word of God. We are Jews who have circumcised hearts and have traded this world for HIM. The old testament is just as true as the new testament, but this does not mean that it is exact literal, it is both literal in some places and allegorical in other places.

Some things, concepts of time ect we simply don't know, and prophecy never plays out in real life the way it plays out in a vision.. take Nebuchadnezzar 7 cows vision ect. In real life the vision was allegorical the way it played out, so you always have to look at prophecy in the bible as allegorical and representative of something.

But it is how God chose to explain things to us weak, frail, and ignorant humans.

I would find it maddening to live in a world where i believed in gods and demons who are constantly manipulating my thoughts and actions without my being aware.





a reply to: stosh64

a reply to: stosh64

The teachings are inherently contradictory.

If Satan is the ruler of the earth, and Satan is the great deceiver, then if I were Satan I would pretend I was Jesus and get everybody to believe I was their savior.

Corroborating evidence of atrocities committed in the name of Jesus support this theory, right?

lol.. nvm

Does anyone else find it suspect that apparantly the bible is the only way to find out what god is and what it wants from you?


a reply to: stosh64

Welcome to the beginning of the road to Atheism or Agnosticism.

I had the same questions as you, and started out seeking the truth of the Bible. I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught Biblical Inerrancy. In my early 20s I started to actually research the beginnings of the Judaism and Christianity and looking at it from both sides. When I was young we didn't have the internet. All everyone knew was what your preacher taught and your parents/community/friends said and believed. Since the internets arrival, its very easy to get both sides of view.

Once you start looking into it, you realize that the Bible is not perfect. From there you say to yourself, well, if that one thing is not correct then what else in the bible is not correct. Then it proceeds down the different paths of biblical forgeries (apologists call this Psuedographia), non-evidence of major events and characters, copying of past religions, etc. It can be quite exhausting researching everything, trying to make sense of it, and separating the BS from the truth. The last one is especially hard as everyone says they are right.

Ill post some things later that contributed to me not believing in the bible anymore. As a start, look into Bart Ehrmans work.

Good questions OP .S&F for just the first line . Prophecy is in many places in the Bible and a lot of the history of some of the characters seems to point to that fact .The story of Abraham and Isaac is very prophetic and points to The Son that would be sacrificed .Abraham probably didn't know why at the time God would have had him act this out until He was told not to and noticed the Ram that was caught in the bushes . The apostles had the old testament scriptures and when Jesus explained to them from the Torah on the road about the Christ and all that pertained to Him they understood why the Christ ought to have suffered and entered into His Glory .

They didn't need the New Testament per say but thought it right to record for posterity what they as eye witnesses had seen and touched . We learn a important aspect about The Holy Sprite from the New Testament that only seemed to work in a partial way that in the New would take on a full time operation in all believers .His roll is not to testify about Himself but to always point the believer to Jesus . The believers have become a type of Israel in the wilderness wondering to the promise land which is not of this earth .We are His heavenly inheritance while Israel is his earthly inheritance .

We Christians do not get the bible from Constantine and Nicaea .Who ever your source for that info is you should study the matter yourself ,then correct your source . .. Here are a few sources to spend some time with . Chuck Missler www.youtube.com...

Micheal Heiser www.youtube.com...

Firefighters for Christ firefighters.org...

Oh and a lecture on the bible and the differing versions and how the sources came to be . A must watch for any bible believing Christian imo a reply to: stosh64

Well maybe your church said the bible shouldnt be questioned but i dont see the bible saying it shouldnt be questioned. We are called to study the bible, studying means questioning something
We are also shown in the bible to question God directly, if He is God then questioning Him can only be productive, saying He is wrong is another issue though.
As for the old testament, it was around long before it was canonised so I think your supposition is wrong.
The Isaac story has a very important lesson, you also neglect Abraham's faith and personal relationship with God

Challenge God and study the bible for faults.
Also its not Gods perfect word, its mans understanding of God, its historical and opinion.
I suggest you go find a book explaining the bible.

and remember, the bible as scripture is complimentary to the Spirit.
they work together
Test every Spirit

The bible is like the parable of the weeds.

Matthew 13
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Enemies have planted weeds among the wheat, the bible is a mix of both truth and lies. Jesus is the wheat and Paul is the enemy who planted weeds among Jesus' truth.

The "time of harvest" is personal revelation, you are beginning to reap the harvest by questioning/testing the spirits within the bible. You have let the weeds grow with the wheat but now you are seeing the weeds for what they are: lies planted by the enemy among the wheat that is Jesus.

Congratulations my friend you have just taken the most important step toward finding the truth. Do not ignore your gut feeling, usually it is right and you are correct that the Spirit has led you to this point.

My heart is overjoyed for you my friend, you've broken the chains they've had around your feet.

Now, separate the wheat from the chaff by testing the spirits in the bible. Your gut will lead you toward the truth.

Good luck brother.

I am a soul that had no belief in religion but lived as well as I could by the golden rule. I went thru a very bad time and wanted to leave this place. At my lowest a "crazy person" came to me telling me he was god asking me if I wanted wealth and I responded "it will not make me happy and change how I feel about this place". He told me I would get manna from heaven.

4 days later I got to the Kundalini Syndrome and awoke to a new reality where energy is pulsating in my body that makes me feel relaxed. From my point of view spirit/light/chi/manna is the same thing. A energy pulsating in your body making you feel loved from unknown source.

No matter what planet you are on, not matter what views you have, the energy flow is real and you will know it for yourself if you follow the golden rule. If a person like me who was not spiritual or religious can get help then whatever "the existing ONE" (the spiritual meaning of Jehovah) is, religion is not part of the reasoning if you will get help or not from ONE.

Now days I see that person as a messenger for the other side of the veil that is very miss understood by people on this side of the veil. I have read some of the bible and think Jesus is a very good teacher. I think of Paul as either a deceiver of a crazy person and have no need for his semi close to Jesus message that logically is not Jesus teachings.

Namaste

a reply to: stosh64
This is a road you are going to have to travel on your own, OP. The Xtians are going to give any reason they can to convince you to think their way. The heathens are going to do the same. You are going to have to ask the questions, and answer them to your satisfaction on your own.

If you are asking the questions. It is time to seek out the answers. This is the point where you must decide if the truth is more important than what you believe. If it is, you may, or may not like what you find. If it is not, you'll find what you want to find.

a reply to: stosh64


Yes…. you and many others have been wrong in your thinking and believing the Bible(there are a multitude of them) is the inerrant /perfect word of the creator God.That construct as an extrapolation using circular logic reasoning….The bible says the bible is inerrant so the bible is inerrant because The bible says the bible is inerrant so the bible is inerrant because The bible says the bible is inerrant…ad infinitum.

The upside is you are verbalizing what you “think” you know.That the bible is not inerrant and what you have believed has been wrong.However your dilemma is still you do not know that the bible is not inerrant you still only believe and will continue to believe until you know you were wrong.

In effect when you know this is truth your house of religious cards will come crashing down because it was built upon the sands of your religion.However just being told it will not do it.I know for a fact you still believe the bible may be inerrant even though it goes against your intuition.Then the bible verses come flooding in your mind about being deceived by satan etc etc….and Satan is warring with God for your soul etc etc…!

This war that is going on is not between the creator God and a being Satan it is going on between your ears in your religious carnal mind where “satan”(the adversary) rules.This satan is not a being it is the foundation of your religious carnal mind that believes your Belief System religion.It is impossible for you to believe anything but what is in your Belief System religion and that is why you cannot believe (at this time) the bible is errant or know that it is errant.It is the warring in your mind.Yahoshua clearly defined what this battle is about when he said to the religious Jews.

“You search the scriptures thinking that in them you have life yet you fail to come to me whom they testify of that I might deliver you.”

This deepens the belief dilemma because it is written in the scriptures which the bible is derived from.To Yahoshua “words” don’t mean language calligraphy writing.Words written on paper or stone are just words and have no power.When Yahoshua means words he means “what is” the truth.

He proclaimed the truth to the pharisees knowing good and well they would not understand what he was talking about because he was stating the reason they did not “know” the creator God was because they only sought their religion and they found what they were seeking(seek and you will find).That is the dilemma of Yahoshuas words.He is not prescribing a religious method to find truth he is only stating truth yet knowing no one can hear it.

What happened was the same thing the Jews did (but worse) they made a religious method out of what was “written of what Yahoshua and the disciples did or said or wrote and called it Christianity (and it’s 30,000 plus sects)….each believing they “know” the truth.The majority”use” their bible as the “proof text” because they believe it is inerrant which to the reasonable defies all logic because it is circular vicious cycle.

In effect they have deified their bible and believe it is “the WORD of God”.If anything disagrees with their belief of their bible it is wrong.That reasoning is so simple a deception a child could see through it yet billions cannot.They are blinded by their belief and “faith” in their Word of God.

I am positive there will be many more in this thread that will justify the bible BY the bible and deny all sense of reason through circular logic reasoning.That is the war that is going on between the ears of man in their religious carnal mind.There have been many casualties of all the shots fired from someones mind.The final victim will be the person.That is the inevitability of all religion.It is the antithesis of knowing the truth that makes them freed from their bondage of their mind.

None can free themselves from their religious carnal mind but the creator God and as long as the believer believes ”their will be done”(because they believe the have a will free of cause) they will be imprisoned in their religious carnal mind.

Is the bible to blame..no…it is the sand the believer builds their house(prison) upon.Brick by brick(doctrine by doctrine) until it can no longer stand and falls in on them.Most only have shanty’s made of cardboard.When it falls... they build another.When they cry out to their God..have I not done many things in your name, cast out demons,prophesy and many good works…….the words they will hear they won't understand.

Playing bible chess(theology) is a dangerous game and always ends in heartache and delusion.The creator God is completely capable of communicating(communing)with whomever they please…even inside that prison.The scriptures purpose is to be a testimony that testifies of Yahoshua(the creator God is deliverance/salvation).When that is known it served it’s sole purpose.

The fact is the creator God will not commune with anyone through a book of writing because it is not the “word of the living creator God”.The creator God is not the God of the dead but of the living.When the house built on sand falls the believer will be picked up and freed from their prison of religion… but not a second sooner.

Well many library's that carried ancient knowledge have been destroyed in the past many times in many different places. To me the Bible is no exception, over time things change. Maybe it's like the game telephone eventually the message is lost in translation on purpose or not.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: stosh64
Disclaimer: Please, if you are just going to bash the belief in Jesus, or state how ignorant believers of any faith are, move along, nothing to see here.

Can i at least point out that you have set up a false dichotomy. There are more than just two possibilities when discussing the validity of the bible. I find it extremely unfunny when confronted by the apparent inability of some people to see that the bible is actually just a collection of stories portraying the thoughts of long dead cultures.

Does the possibility exist in your mind that none of these stories are divinely inspired?

If you are really in search of the truth, you should read about the history of the books themselves. I find it fascinating how these stories became the "bible" that people put so much faith in.

Absolutely you can.
I appreciate any input. This is not meant to be a Christian only thread.
I just didn't want the 'your stupid because' remarks.
I always read all points of view. I have learned a lot hear doing that.
Sorry, I don't have time right now, but I appreciate ALL contributions.
Thank you
I'll be back in a while to read the thread.

There truly exists a conspiracy.
I think you're right in thinking the Bible has been tampered with and I believe Constantine to be a viable contributor to this.
There are tons of unholy things done though out history, in the name of religion.
I think this goes so far back in history and is so carefully orchestrated it would blow everyone's mind.
I am Pagan, but I was raised southern Baptist .
The Bible was taught to me every single day for most of my life.
I look back at Christianity and see a completely misguided religion and the future of it looks bleak.
I'm interested in learning more of this and If I come across things that deal the development of the bible I'll post it.
I'm also interested in learning more about the involvement of politics and Christianity and the history of the "Religious Right".