Germany May Legalize Incest

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Klassified

But it's not an orientation ... unless you are admitting that one's nurture is the primary determinant that decides who and what you will be attracted to later in life. In which case, your sexual orientation IS a choice. It might be a choice that is made for you in part, but it still is a choice and not inborn.

I agree that it's a choice, and not an orientation. Help me understand your point, in making that point.

ETA: Ahh. Never mind. I went back several posts, and saw your response to another poster. I see what you were addressing, now.

Government has no place in the bedroom.

Unless one party is hurting the other, or exploiting them in a damaging way, all forms of sex should be legal, however distasteful they may be to non-practitioners.

Probably some guy on the German council is in love with his sister ( or niece)'and will push to make this legal.... Douche bag.

Incest is often part of a control network run for the benefit of the alpha male in the kin-group. It feeds the power system at the top of the pyramid, and uses the lower-ranking family member as fuel to "feed" the desire of the more powerful participant(s). Apparently, the self-actualization of some folks is more important than for others.

It is common in cults for some reason.

The islamist treatment of women isn't anybody's business, either, right? A woman should be "free" to have her clitoris removed, and to wear stifling black head-to-toe blankets, right? Maybe the women are into being subjugated, just like the younger, female incestors, right? She should be free to not drive, as well.

Just like a pimp is helping a prostitute express her sexuality by slapping her and taking her money, I guess.

So, basically, libertarianism simply re-inforces the sexual politics of whomever already holds the power. That doesn't sound like a very effective tool for .... liberating anybody but the white males who already run everything.

a reply to: jhn7537

originally posted by: jhn7537
Can anyone from Germany please lend some greater clarity to this topic?

I'm from Germany.

This topic is just one (dramatised) aspect of a wider development/debate about state interference into citizens personal lifes.

I would have expected that especially you freedom loving Americans were able to understand the point.

And what's it to you anyways?

To all the people saying they are surprised by Germany discussing this. I am not. A lot of incest porn comes from Germany. And no, I do not know that because I am a creepy perv lol. But due to research for a story about a creepy perv.

originally posted by: Astyanax
Government has no place in the bedroom.

Unless one party is hurting the other, or exploiting them in a damaging way, all forms of sex should be legal, however distasteful they may be to non-practitioners.

Except with minors. PERIOD. And I would add, your own child at any age. Grandchild. Uncle or Aunt.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: James1982

There is one argument you missed - homosexuals claim that they have an orientation and can't help being attracted to members of the same sex the way that heterosexuals can't help being attracted to members of the opposite sex. Are you going to claim that incest is actually an orientation and that people who practice it can't help being attracted to members of their own family and no others in order to form proper relationship bonds the same way homosexuals make that claim about members of the same sex and heterosexuals make that claim about members of the opposite sex?

Really? And then, are there "homo-incestuites" and "hetero-incetuites"? You seriously are going to go there? Because that is the main argument that homosexual advocates make to defend why all the rest of us have to tolerate homosexuality and nothing else.

So, uh, no people who are arguing against incest who might otherwise tolerate homosexuality are not hypocrites.

A clean cut "orientation" doesn't exist, it's a made up concept. People are attracted to who they are attracted to, they don't have a choice in it. We can put labels on people if they are closer to one "group" than another, but that's it.

You say incest can't be an orientation because they find people other than relatives attractive, which doesn't make much sense. Bisexual people find both males and females attractive, is that not an orientation because they didn't decide to stick with one specific group?

Incest has been happening for a long time, whether for political gains, lust, love, playing out past abuses, mental problems, etc you cannot with any honesty say that all people who engage in incest do so because they are victims, just like you cannot say homosexuality is a result of abuse in all case. But, it is a fact that some people's past abuse made them attracted to men, just like someone's past abuse made them attracted to BDSM.

What drives our sexual desires is incredibly complex and I doubt anybody has even gotten close to figuring it all out yet. That being the case it seems pretty hypocritical to say there is nothing wrong with being attracted to the same gender, but there is something wrong with being attracted to family members.

There is a long way between disapproving of something and putting someone in prison for it. I'm glad the Germans are thoughtful enough to realize that.

originally posted by: ColCurious
a reply to: jhn7537

originally posted by: jhn7537
Can anyone from Germany please lend some greater clarity to this topic?

I'm from Germany.

This topic is just one (dramatised) aspect of a wider development/debate about state interference into citizens personal lifes.

I would have expected that especially you freedom loving Americans were able to understand the point.

And what's it to you anyways?

Well I'm sure you've come to realize a long time ago most Americans bleating about freedom think it means everyone is free, as long as they live how that person wants them to live.

A joke, in other words, and a bad one.

Germany is having a discussion on government interference in people's personal lives? THANK YOU for sharing this, I think you might have exposed why this story got traction in the first place.

Germans try to get government off their backs, so let's portray them as a bunch of perverts that want to legalize incest! Excellent narrative control, that is. Seems to be working great, too.

Yeah hes only being charged with incest. Give the guy a break. He has to live with peoples knowledge of his relationship with his sister. Isn't that *Punishment* enough.

Granted. Don't allow them to marry lol. But they can live together as *companions* and *relatives*

As gross as it seems. it happens. lol. Better to persecute pedophiles than put *Cletus* in jail for doing that Cletus does best.

a reply to: Unity_99

Your exception was already covered in my post, madam.

'Minors' is a vexed question. I see nothing wrong (except from a disciplinary point of view) in two seventeen-year-olds having sex with each other.

a reply to: smcneil01

I am sure it is meant to legalize it between consenting adults. Rape, statutory rape, molestation and sexual assault of any kind would still be illegal. When it comes to that you have to understand the logic.. it's weird and creepy yes, but if it's between consenting adults they shouldn't be locked up for years and the police really have better things to do.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
my morality should not determine who can have sex

Agreed. It's none of my business and CERTAINLY not the government's business. The bedroom is no place for the government.

there is a huge difference between incest and molestation.a reply to: aboutface

Well if too family members (grown ups) want to have closer relationships between em, its their business, maybe some restriction about procreating should be in order tho?

Lets focus on those paedophiles and other rapist ppl for change.. Laws and punishment are joke pretty much all over the world atm, we need to make changes toward em, some countries do not even lock em up now days, just a warning for next time offend they would be send to jail for 1-3years, this is joke and strike against the victims and society.

There are so much corruption around the issue that it must come from the ppl, we need to demand justice or we will lose it surely.

This is how you can tell that our society is in a state of collapse: we cannot even agree on what is wrong.

Every human culture has had some definition of incest. There may have been exceptions (kissing cousins, pharaoh, etc.), but every culture from the Yamamano to Goldi to the Toltecs had some concept that there exists a category of humans who are simply off limits for you.

But no longer.

Frankly, it is going to mess with your head to screw your brother or sister. You are supposed to grow up with them helping you grow up, distinct from your parents who hold more power than you do. On some sort of Jungian level, your sibling is an alternate version of your own self. Forming a romantic/sexual partnership works when you attach to someone else, not someone who already has a lifelong connection to you.

Originally, heterosex marriage was the norm because it was believed to benefit society.

Yet now we have lost sight of the individual's obligation to benefit the larger culture. I don't "owe" anything to the larger community. We no longer expect that my work and family should contribute to the greater good. Now all that matters is whether I am free; screw what it does to society.

The idea of a republic, Latin "res publica", this public thing we share, is dead. Public life no longer matters. The only thing left is whether you personally are getting your rock off by whatever means necessary. Screw society and all the strangers you pass by on the street every day. Anarchy is next

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: SaturnFX
my morality should not determine who can have sex

Agreed. It's none of my business and CERTAINLY not the government's business. The bedroom is no place for the government.

Our PM said that almost 50 years ago.

www.cbc.ca... bedrooms-of-the-nation.html

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: tridentblue
Mentally/Physically handicapped children are born all the time to people who are completely unrelated. In fact, exponentially more than those born from incest. Maybe we should make it illegal for any couple to have sex until they are genetically tested to see if their children will have birth defects, and sterilize them if that's the case. That will save the taxpayers many billions over the next decade.

Actually, the kind of things that can occur from closed gene pools are far trickier than what happens in non-closed gene pools. Although the Navajo have very strong and complicated taboos on incest, the Navajo people also were faced with the plight of dramatically reduced numbers due to the Long Walk. Therefore as much as they tried to avoid inbreeding, it very likely occurred. The end result was that 1 out of every 30,000 Navajo born has the terrible disease called XP (Xeroderma Pigmentosum). XP is strongly correlated as a result of inbreeding and it's far worse than being born with just a few extra toes. Another group that has the same issue would be Japan, which also, as a small island population, has had issues with inbreeding. Their XP rate is 1 in 22,000. In contrast, the rate of XP children being born in the US is 1 in 1,000,000.

In short, there are reasons other than the norm to actually deter inbreeding from occurring within a given population as once it has occurred, no amount of avoidance of incest can prevent the surfacing of diseases like XP. As in the case of the Navajo which actually has some of the strongest incest taboos in the world. Every Navajo has 2 primary clans and one is never to enter into a relationship with another Navajo who shares one or more of those two primary clans, regardless of whether there is not overt familial connection between the two people. Despite this, there are many Navajo children that are being born with XP because of that period where the gene pool size dropped dramatically.

More on XP:

www.pbs.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus it looks like the Nazi party needs to get back into power again they cleaned up Germany in the early 1930s BOOK burning was all the porn getting it and NOT bibles like we were told , those men died in vain it seems .

Never saw this coming from Germany

a reply to: tovenar

I just want to say, I couldn't have said it better myself. Great post.