Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: moobie

I really dont think your the one to lecture me on having an agenda. Your posts support the anti west agenda.

Secondly not believing anything Russia says is not an agenda. Its based on years of lies by Putin and his cronies. Blind loyalty is a dangerous thing.

As for the article I saw it. I am wondering if the praise is legitimate or if its something they were forced to agree to before being allowed access to the site. Apparently there were meetings with the DPR leadership before any teams were allowed access to the site and material.

But by all means, continue the hypocritical personal attacks on me because I don't care for Putin or the rebels. That is the way its done in that part of the world right? Attack a person over and over if they don't tow the Putin line?

a reply to: 00nunya00

The TSA does not investigate plane crashes in the US.

The rebels destroyed the crime scene.

The Australian Government has also stated a coverup of massive proportions occurred with the actions of the rebels.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 00nunya00

The TSA does not investigate plane crashes in the US.

Already covered. Do try to keep up.

The rebels destroyed the crime scene.

And yet, you have 100% definite surety it was the rebels, even without even being able to personally access the crime scene, only pics and news reports. But the wreckage being 100% untouched is SUPER important. Huh. Funny how that works.

The Australian Government has also stated a coverup of massive proportions occurred with the actions of the rebels.

Oh, well, the Aussies (known for being bigger drinkers and fighters than the Russians) are the end-all-be-all arbiters of Truth. They said it's true, so case closed, let's go to war-----YOU FIRST. Here's your gun, better hope the flak jackets the US provides you are actually useful this time.

Eye.Roll. The logic, I swear. Thanks for the lulz.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: moobie
As for the article I saw it. I am wondering if the praise is legitimate or if its something they were forced to agree to before being allowed access to the site. Apparently there were meetings with the DPR leadership before any teams were allowed access to the site and material.

Wow, you're really grasping now, aren't you? An independent third party from the home country of most of the victims, an EXPERT, who has BEEN THERE says it was well handled, but because it goes against your narrative, you "WONDER" if they were forced to say "heckuva job, Brownie" just to be able to see wreckage? Wow. Just wow. I think you might want to back away from the keyboard and take a break for a bit.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
Already covered. Do try to keep up.

Just reinforcing the correction.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
And yet, you have 100% definite surety it was the rebels, even without even being able to personally access the crime scene, only pics and news reports. But the wreckage being 100% untouched is SUPER important. Huh. Funny how that works.

Yes the rebels control the area. Yes the rebels control the crime scene. We know this from the rebels themselves who spent 4 days destroying the crime scene and looting the bodies while refusing access to the scene to those who have a right to be there.

For plane crash investigation absolutely the debris is extremely important. I get the impression you dont understand why that is.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
Oh, well, the Aussies (known for being bigger drinkers and fighters than the Russians) are the end-all-be-all arbiters of Truth. They said it's true, so case closed, let's go to war-----YOU FIRST. Here's your gun, better hope the flak jackets the US provides you are actually useful this time.

Eye.Roll. The logic, I swear. Thanks for the lulz.

Typical - attack me while dismissing what the Australians say while at the same time accepting at face value the person who stated the rebels did a good job.

and people accuse me of having an agenda...

We are adults, not 5th graders so the /eye roll is not needed.
Swear all you want but what we have seen from the Russians and Rebels is anything but logical.

as for the lulz you keep posting and we will keep lulz.


MH17 crash: FT photo shows signs of damage from missile strike

Ukraine Rebels Hand Over Black Boxes From Downed Malaysia Passenger Jet

'WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO HIDE?'

U.S. President Barack Obama said it was time for Russian President Vladimir Putin and Russia "to pivot away from the strategy that they've been taking and get serious about trying to resolve hostilities within Ukraine."

He said Putin and Russia had a direct responsibility to compel separatists to cooperate with the investigation, and that the burden was on Moscow to insist that separatists stop tampering with the probe, he said.

"What are they trying to hide?" Obama said at the White House.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry laid out on Sunday what he called overwhelming evidence of Russian complicity in the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines plane, and expressed disgust at how the bodies of the victims had been treated at the crash site.

But Russia's Defence Ministry challenged accusations that pro-Russian separatists were responsible for shooting down the airliner and said Ukrainian warplanes had flown close to it.

The ministry also rejected accusations that Russia had supplied the rebels with SA-11 Buk anti-aircraft missile systems - the weapon said by Kiev and the West to have downed the airliner - "or any other weapons".

Putin said in a televised address that the downing of the airliner must not be used for political ends and urged separatists to allow international experts access to the crash site.

Read more: www.businessinsider.com...

AFP -'Industrial scale' tampering of evidence at MH17 site: Australia

Evidence has been tampered with on an "industrial scale" at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said Tuesday, calling it "a cover-up".
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Cover-up underway at MH17 crash site: Australian PM Abbott Reuters
Australian PM hits out at 'shambolic' MH17 crash site AFP
Rebels hand over MH17 black boxes AFP
Bodies, black boxes handed over from Ukraine crash site Reuters
Angry Australia PM says Ukraine crash probe resembles 'garden clean-up' Reuters

Abbott, whose government was behind a UN Security Council resolution that Monday unanimously demanded full access to the site in rebel-held east Ukraine, admitted progress had been made but said more needed to be done.

"There is still a long, long way to go," he told a press conference of the quest to repatriate the bodies of the dead Australians and bring those responsible for the 298 killed to justice.

"After the crime comes the cover-up," he added.

"What we have seen is evidence tampering on an industrial scale. That has to stop."

His comments came as pro-Russian separatists, who are accused of shooting down the plane, finally conceded to a furious international clamour for the bodies and the jet's black boxes to be handed over to international investigators.

It followed days of bitter wrangling in which rebels hampered experts from gaining access to the site and were accused of tampering with evidence.

"This site has been trampled from the beginning and we haven't just seen all sorts of random individuals roaming around the site, picking over the remains, picking over the wreckage. We've seen heavy equipment coming onto the site," Abbott said.

"The more recent footage suggests it's more like a building demolition. And this again is unacceptable."

a reply to: dragonridr

He is from Finland that is why he hates russia, they have a history.

He he playing the same game as the US are. A lot of talk about evidence that is suppoused to exists but that have never been displaied. And he is using evidence that have not been proven to exist as evidence for back up he's arguments.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: 00nunya00
Already covered. Do try to keep up.

Just reinforcing the correction.

Nope, just coat-tailing someone else's snark so you can feel more "right" after being called out. Go ahead, try and defend your knowingly-copying a little more. I got all day.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
And yet, you have 100% definite surety it was the rebels, even without even being able to personally access the crime scene, only pics and news reports. But the wreckage being 100% untouched is SUPER important. Huh. Funny how that works.

Yes the rebels control the area. Yes the rebels control the crime scene. We know this from the rebels themselves who spent 4 days destroying the crime scene and looting the bodies while refusing access to the scene to those who have a right to be there.

For plane crash investigation absolutely the debris is extremely important. I get the impression you dont understand why that is.

I have a feeling you don't understand how hypocritical and ridiculous it is for you to claim that you KNOW who did this, and exactly how they did it, and then claim that the crime scene even matters one iota. Think about it slowly, it might help.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
Oh, well, the Aussies (known for being bigger drinkers and fighters than the Russians) are the end-all-be-all arbiters of Truth. They said it's true, so case closed, let's go to war-----YOU FIRST. Here's your gun, better hope the flak jackets the US provides you are actually useful this time.

Eye.Roll. The logic, I swear. Thanks for the lulz.

Typical - attack me while dismissing what the Australians say while at the same time accepting at face value the person who stated the rebels did a good job.

and people accuse me of having an agenda...

We are adults, not 5th graders so the /eye roll is not needed.
Swear all you want but what we have seen from the Russians and Rebels is anything but logical.

as for the lulz you keep posting and we will keep lulz.

ROTFLMAO, and yet you "just had to back up" another snarky attempt to discredit my entire argument based on one acronym slip-up.

That's rich. Your logic deserves its own page on Encyclopedia Dramatica. Eye rolls are definitely needed when it comes to that. Again, show me proof that doesn't require access to the crime scene while simultaneously requiring the crime scene to be untouched, and we'll talk, sweetie.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
Nope, just coat-tailing someone else's snark so you can feel more "right" after being called out. Go ahead, try and defend your knowingly-copying a little more. I got all day.

Nope - just reinforcing the correction.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
I have a feeling you don't understand how hypocritical and ridiculous it is for you to claim that you KNOW who did this, and exactly how they did it, and then claim that the crime scene even matters one iota. Think about it slowly, it might help.

Try reading your post and my response again. The rebels control the area. This is not in question. The rebels refused to allow people access to the scene. This is not in question. The rebels compromised the scenes of the crash / debris fields. This is not in question.

The crime seems matters immensely. Its a prime reason you don't go in and start removing items and moving stuff around. You secure the scene until the professionals trained in air crash investigations arrive.

I am not sure why you cannot see that, or at least accept that since its established fact.

When you decide to come back to topic instead of personal attacks let me know. While we wait read up on the scenes of the debris and who is in control of those areas. The Rebels are in control of those areas so I am not sure why you think someone else was.

The rebels removed debris from the crash scenes. They are not investigating the scene, they are destroying it. They left the bodies in the fields for 3-4 days while they looted them.

By all means, continue defending the rebels destruction of the crime scene. If the rebels had nothing to do with the incident there would be no reason to take the actions they have.

You seem to have facts on who did this and why. By all means, share with the rest of us.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Not sure why you're just copying and pasting your last post for the most part, thought maybe you'd have some new argument, but okay.

Let me spell it out for you: HOW are you so sure about who is responsible, and exactly how it happened, WITHOUT having ANY access to the crime scene personally, LET ALONE this "key evidence" you claim the rebels have destroyed, and then claim that that destroyed evidence is going to matter AT ALL to helping us understand the crash further?

It's really simple. An incredibly basic question. You should be able to answer that. Either you are JUST as in-the-dark about who did it and how as the rest of us because the "rebels destroyed the evidence", or you're simply choosing to believe the narrative you've chosen WITHOUT ANY PROOF AT ALL WHATSOEVER. Either the crime scene is important, or it's not. Pick one.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The pro-russians are not trained to treat this type of a crash site. They are just common People With guns.

There is no proof yet that the crash site is byond investigation. If parts of the site has been tampered With. It will only mean that it will take a longer time to sort it out.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xcathdra

The pro-russians are not trained to treat this type of a crash site. They are just common People With guns.

There is no proof yet that the crash site is byond investigation. If parts of the site has been tampered With. It will only mean that it will take a longer time to sort it out.

No it means evidence is destroyed and trying to find definitive answers may no longer be possible. This is not rocket science. There is a reason plane crash investigations are handled in the manner they are. Those methods do not include drunk idiots with guns rooting through the debris fields for 4 days while hauling items away.

Where are the rebels taking the debris they have removed?
Why did they remove it instead of leaving it for the investigators?
Why did it take 4 days to allow the professionals who know what they are doing access to the scene?

a reply to: 00nunya00

............and I have pages ago.

Maybe you should read the thread before jumping in and making claims that have already been answered.

Also, since you didn't bother to do as suggested, the rebels control the scenes of the crash. The rebels removed debris. The rebels looted the bodies.

Maybe you can tell me how the rebels don't have control of the area, which is what I was talking about and you apparently took as something different. How did you go from me stating the rebels had control of the scenes to whatever the hell conclusion you arrived at?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xcathdra

The pro-russians are not trained to treat this type of a crash site. They are just common People With guns.

There is no proof yet that the crash site is byond investigation. If parts of the site has been tampered With. It will only mean that it will take a longer time to sort it out.

No it means evidence is destroyed and trying to find definitive answers may no longer be possible. This is not rocket science. There is a reason plane crash investigations are handled in the manner they are. Those methods do not include drunk idiots with guns rooting through the debris fields for 4 days while hauling items away.

Where are the rebels taking the debris they have removed?
Why did they remove it instead of leaving it for the investigators?
Why did it take 4 days to allow the professionals who know what they are doing access to the scene?

Why did it take 4 days? Because it s a war sone. You dont just bring People in.

There are also good reasons why the pro-russians started to bring evidence out of the scene. In their mind it is not in their favour that the Ukraine government get a hold of it. Not if the Ukraine government are the once who shot Mh17 Down.

originally posted by: spy66
Why did it take 4 days? Because it s a war sone. You dont just bring People in.

Sure you do. Its the rebels who kept refusing access to the site. The order had been given to Ukraine forces to not engage rebels in that area. An order the pro Russians finally joined in on on day 4 when they allowed a 10km area around the site to be engagement free.

Secondly the rebels removed debris. where did the debris go and why have they not granted access to the investigators for that area?

originally posted by: spy66
There are also good reasons why the pro-russians started to bring evidence out of the scene. In their mind it is not in their favour that the Ukraine government get a hold of it. Not if the Ukraine government are the once who shot Mh17 Down.

They destroyed the crash site. They destroyed evidence. They have not provided the removed debris to the investigative team.

If the rebels had nothing to do with the shoot down there never would have been a need to destroy the crime scene. There never would have been a need to deny access to international investigators.

a reply to: Xcathdra

LOVE how you totally ignore my simple, short, rational question in favor of asking more obfuscating questions of your own. Alphabet soup in your resume?

I'm going to quote your reply post right before you replied to mine:

"No it means evidence is destroyed and trying to find definitive answers may no longer be possible."

SO YOU HAVE NO DEFINITIVE ANSWERS AND NO PROOF. Therefore EVERYTHING you are claiming is "true" or "known" or "sure" is complete and utter BS.

End of your argument. You have NO CLUE who did this or how. Point proven. I expect you to take a much more middle-of-the-road "who knows" approach to this thread now? Didn't think so.

Buh bye. That is all. You made it so easy.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: spy66
Why did it take 4 days? Because it s a war sone. You dont just bring People in.

Sure you do. Its the rebels who kept refusing access to the site. The order had been given to Ukraine forces to not engage rebels in that area. An order the pro Russians finally joined in on on day 4 when they allowed a 10km area around the site to be engagement free.

Secondly the rebels removed debris. where did the debris go and why have they not granted access to the investigators for that area?

originally posted by: 00nunya00
There are also good reasons why the pro-russians started to bring evidence out of the scene. In their mind it is not in their favour that the Ukraine government get a hold of it. Not if the Ukraine government are the once who shot Mh17 Down.

They destroyed the crash site. They destroyed evidence. They have not provided the removed debris to the investigative team.

If the rebels had nothing to do with the shoot down there never would have been a need to destroy the crime scene. There never would have been a need to deny access to international investigators.

Why are you quoting this as if it was me? You're getting your posters and quotes mixed up. Try again. I never said this.

a reply to: 00nunya00

Try again.

I dont have to take any road on this issue. Russia has been caught lying about its actions in Ukraine since day 1 up to the present. If Russia does not like being in that position then maybe they should admit their involvement in Ukraine, since its already known and verified.

Russia provided the BUK systems to the rebels.
The rebels bragged about shooting the plane down on social media.
When they found out they killed 300 civilians the social media boasting went away.
The intercepted phone calls where rebels are talking to their Russian handlers / talking about the shootdown have been verified as authentic.

I have my view point and you have yours. You are doing the very thing you accuse me of and yet you don't even see it.

The Rebels brought the plane down and Russia helped by providing the items / support. If you doint like that, that is your problem and not mine.

a reply to: 00nunya00

Its was a response to spy66, as the first part states. The second part is directed at him and not you. My apologies on the name mixup. - Fixed

a reply to: Xcathdra

Wow. Claiming even more things you've seen ZERO proof of yourself. I get it now, I get your agenda. It's a paycheck for you. Right on, have fun with that. Hope the Ambien works to help you sleep.

Tell me, are you Dianne Feinstein? Cuz even she seems to not have seen this "proof" we have. LOL. Agendas; they're so easily exposed. Still, no answer to my question: how is the crime scene important if we "already know" exactly what happened? (Hint: the answer is: it isn't.)

I love going to bed after having watched Russia lay out the only evidence presented thus far only to wake with fresh accusations and no proof. Shocker. You know, there's a reason why even Bush wasn't stupid enough to actually go through with painting a UN plane to provoke Saddam. It's too damn hard to control, silly rabbit....

George Bush considered provoking a war with Saddam Hussein's regime by flying a United States spyplane over Iraq bearing UN colours, enticing the Iraqis to take a shot at it, according to a leaked memo of a meeting between the US President and Tony Blair.

Source