Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: thesaneone
Things are starting to get interesting.
www.nytimes.com...


The question is who does it belong to?

Ive seen several pieces that show what looks to be fragmentation damage but no way to tell from a picture. We wont truly know until a forensic team gets there hands on the wreckage. But i will say it aint looking good for Russia because it looks like they broke a major rule. You dont ever supply any rebels anywhere the capability to shoot down an airliner at altitude.

All of you are insane. The passenger plane was shot down using a Russian BUK system supplied to the Donestk militia. It is so obvious. Because they are a group of trained alcoholic rebels, they saw this plane flying over and decided to launch a missile. If you are a trained person to use such a system, it only takes 5 minutes to deploy the missle. And it takes another five minutes to get it ready again for another firing. In theory/retrospect, they could have shot down another passenger airliner after MH17 without any problem. Thanks goodness, it didn't happen again! The potential was there.
They are at fault and so is the Malaysian Airlines for flying over a WARzone!. May the god/universe bless those beings who lost their lives on such an innocent flight. I hope they died instantly, but judging from the pictures they waited a couple minutes.
Almost 300 people gone from this planet. Think about it.

Kratos

a reply to: dragonridr

The other issue is the fact the crime scene has pretty much been destroyed.

a reply to: dragonridr
I agree it's not looking good at all.

Also Tony Abbott said that "they have seen evidence tampering on an industrial scale" about 30 minutes ago.

I wonder what kind of tampering and does it mean that the black boxes were tampered with?

a reply to: thesaneone

MH17: Tony Abbott says MH17 aftermath is evidence tampering on industrial scale as rebels hand over black boxes

RIME Minister Tony Abbott has described the aftermath of the MH17 air disaster as “evidence tampering on an industrial scale”.

The PM said the last few days have been a difficult and trying time for our country and that the MH17 crash site has been “trampled from the beginning”.


“After the crime, comes the cover-up,” Mr Abbott said. “What we have seen is evidence tampering on an industrial scale — and that has to stop.”

The Prime Minister told reporters in Canberra the objectives now are to retrieve the bodies of the victims, to secure the crash site, to conduct the investigation and to bring justice.

An Australian plane will be involved in the transportation of the victims’ bodies from Ukraine to the Netherlands, Mr Abbott said.

The operation to return the bodies of the 37 Australian citizens and residents killed — Operation Bring Them Home — will be headed by retired Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston.

Mr Abbott said “we want to ensure the aftermath of the event of the event is not as tragic as the event itself.”

“To President Putin’s credit, he has thus far been good to his words,” Mr Abbott said.

Earlier, pro-Russian separatists controlling the MH17 crash site handed over the plane’s black boxes to a team of Malaysian investigators.

The breakthrough came after direct negotiations between Malaysia Prime Minister Najib Razak and the self-proclaimed prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Alexander Borodai.

The transfer was completed in the early hours of 1.10am local time on the 11th floor of the self-styled Donetsk People’s Republic’s administration building.

The two black boxes were handed over after hours of talks and one aborted attempt earlier at 10pm. It is not clear why they were not passed at earlier occasion during the night.

“We have decided to hand the black boxes over to Malaysian experts,” Borodai said.

Click link for full article.

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: dragonridr
I agree it's not looking good at all.

Also Tony Abbott said that "they have seen evidence tampering on an industrial scale" about 30 minutes ago.

I wonder what kind of tampering and does it mean that the black boxes were tampered with?

Yeah i read reports of them moving wreckage with heavy equipment which probably means backhoes and bulldozers. Some how i dont see them carefully lifting the stuff on a trailer for relocation so obviously there is going to be evidence lost. But i also dont think they will be able to hide all the damage from a missile either unless they take the stuff to a trash compactor. And they need to keep it somewhat intact because several pictures exist of the wreckage now im not an expert but i know that aircraft reconstruction has been done with less than 30 percent of the plane recovered. Sometimes even one piece can give you alot of information. Than theirs the bodies to destroy that evidence they would need to do autopsies unlikely they did simply no excuse to do so. What they will look for in the bodies is missile shrapnel they wont be able to tell you exactly the way it happened because evidence tampering but they will know its a missile strike.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Thanks for the link just saw the tweet from breaking news.

originally posted by: Kratos40
All of you are insane. The passenger plane was shot down using a Russian BUK system supplied to the Donestk militia. It is so obvious. Because they are a group of trained alcoholic rebels, they saw this plane flying over and decided to launch a missile. If you are a trained person to use such a system, it only takes 5 minutes to deploy the missle. And it takes another five minutes to get it ready again for another firing. In theory/retrospect, they could have shot down another passenger airliner after MH17 without any problem. Thanks goodness, it didn't happen again! The potential was there.
They are at fault and so is the Malaysian Airlines for flying over a WARzone!. May the god/universe bless those beings who lost their lives on such an innocent flight. I hope they died instantly, but judging from the pictures they waited a couple minutes.
Almost 300 people gone from this planet. Think about it.

Kratos

It looks that way but looking like it and proving it are two different things you could put someone on trial because it looks like they did it. What they would hope to do is prove it because theirs alot of countries that want to string these rebels up or at very least a very long time in jail probably a Malaysian jail last place you want to be.

a reply to: dragonridr

What I find interesting about Russian trying to blame the US is how uninvolved the US is in this. We lost 1 dual citizen where as the Dutch lost almost 200. I am sure the Us will be involved in some manner of intelligence etc, but that is assuming that Europe does not have their own intelligence sources and what not.

Even when European countries talk about this incident, Russia is constantly pointing the finger at the US.

I think Putin is missing something major in this. I seriously think he is misreading Europe.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: dragonridr

What I find interesting about Russian trying to blame the US is how uninvolved the US is in this. We lost 1 dual citizen where as the Dutch lost almost 200. I am sure the Us will be involved in some manner of intelligence etc, but that is assuming that Europe does not have their own intelligence sources and what not.

Even when European countries talk about this incident, Russia is constantly pointing the finger at the US.

I think Putin is missing something major in this. I seriously think he is misreading Europe.

The funniest part is they want to make out Obama as some kind of mastermind who planned Ukraine revolt apparently planned plane disaster all to get into a war with Russia. First this shows just a severe lack of understanding Obama he isnt that deep and really doesnt plan things out well obvious by all his scandals. But more importantly the last thing he wants is to deal with any foreign policy during his administration. Thats why he has none and i mean zero so it always makes me laugh how Russians fall for it.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: dragonridr

What I find interesting about Russian trying to blame the US is how uninvolved the US is in this. We lost 1 dual citizen where as the Dutch lost almost 200. I am sure the Us will be involved in some manner of intelligence etc, but that is assuming that Europe does not have their own intelligence sources and what not.

Even when European countries talk about this incident, Russia is constantly pointing the finger at the US.

I think Putin is missing something major in this. I seriously think he is misreading Europe.

The funniest part is they want to make out Obama as some kind of mastermind who planned Ukraine revolt apparently planned plane disaster all to get into a war with Russia. First this shows just a severe lack of understanding Obama he isnt that deep and really doesnt plan things out well obvious by all his scandals. But more importantly the last thing he wants is to deal with any foreign policy during his administration. Thats why he has none and i mean zero so it always makes me laugh how Russians fall for it.

It dosent make any sense that Russia or the pro-russians would do this.

What do Russia gain from targeting Mh17?

What do the pro-Russians gain from this?

What do Ukraine government gain from this?

The only once who gain from this are the Ukrain US popet government and the US. Probably why they are pushing so har With facts they dont have.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: dragonridr

What I find interesting about Russian trying to blame the US is how uninvolved the US is in this. We lost 1 dual citizen where as the Dutch lost almost 200. I am sure the Us will be involved in some manner of intelligence etc, but that is assuming that Europe does not have their own intelligence sources and what not.

Even when European countries talk about this incident, Russia is constantly pointing the finger at the US.

I think Putin is missing something major in this. I seriously think he is misreading Europe.

The funniest part is they want to make out Obama as some kind of mastermind who planned Ukraine revolt apparently planned plane disaster all to get into a war with Russia. First this shows just a severe lack of understanding Obama he isnt that deep and really doesnt plan things out well obvious by all his scandals. But more importantly the last thing he wants is to deal with any foreign policy during his administration. Thats why he has none and i mean zero so it always makes me laugh how Russians fall for it.

It dosent make any sense that Russia or the pro-russians would do this.

What do Russia gain from targeting Mh17?

What do the pro-Russians gain from this?

What do Ukraine government gain from this?

The only once who gain from this are the Ukrain US popet government and the US. Probably why they are pushing so har With facts they dont have.

Whats there to gain this isnt about gaining anything. This is a group of poorly trained people firing a missile they shouldnt have had. They didnt know it was a passenger jet they saw it pop up on radar thought it was Ukrainian and fired. They didnt sit there and go hey lets shoot down that plane i know its a Malaysian airliner but hey there would be a big advantage. See the only people that play the games with who has something to gain in my experience is someone who cant dispute the facts. Seen it so many times its easier to deflect than to debate.

a reply to: spy66

This is where that argument comes off the rails.

Where did you guys get the assumption that the west thinks the plane was a known civilian aircraft that was intentionally targeted? This is what I am talking about when I mention underestimating Europe on this one.

I dont think Russia / Pro Russian intentionally planned to bring down a civilian airliner. I think this is a case of mistaken identity.

The problem, aside from it being a civilian airliner, is the manner in which the entire incident from the side of the Pro Russians has mishandled this mess.

Its like a person who is driving down the road who notices a cop in the rear view mirror trying to pull him over. The driver assumes the cops know about the 15 kilos of coc aine in the trunk and takes off, resulting in a high speed chase that ends with a crash, killing the family of 6 on vacation while the suspect is not injured.

In the end it turns out the reason for the traffic stop was for speeding.

Instead of dealing with an accidental shoot down, Pro Russians / Russians have gone into overdrive to blame someone else. That action only compounds the situation, turning it into something more. The longer this goes on, the more damage the rebels / Russia are doing to themselves.

People are pissed because a civilian plane was shot down, killing innocent civilians.
People moved to outraged when the situation was treated as something to be covered up.

Finally had to log in after more than a year to comment on the "rebels ruining the crime scene" posts:

FIRST, I forget who it was, but I just read *on this forum* that the lead accident investigator who got on the scene today said the rebels had done "an amazing job" with the scene.

SECOND, remember that plane that came down on Rockaway Beach right after 9/11? I met a guy long-known to my brother-in-law who lives there, who actually had to run out of his house to avoid being killed by that plane, because he heard it coming down and pieces of the plane destroyed his house. When he returned to his house wreckage after the TSA investigators had left, he found HUGE CHUNKS of the fuselage still laying in plain sight on his lot that TSA never gave a flying crap about, apparently. He brought one out and showed me, I got to hold it in my hands.

Don't be so overly dramatic about how CSI-perfect the crash site needs to be in order to understand what happened. 98% of the wreckage is still there, as evidenced by the ENORMOUS AMOUNT of pics showing VERY USEFUL pieces of the plane with evidence of the missile that brought this down. On the one hand, you accuse them of being "drunken idiots" without even any knowledge of how to properly target a plane with a Buk, and then on the other hand say they're expert enough in post-crash analysis to seek out and find the key pieces of the plane that will implicate them (as if there's going to be some smoking gun they can take from the site that will keep them from being blamed).

Pick one. And put your anti-Russian BS away. Want a scientific analysis of the plane? Then set an example and stick to science and quit straying into the la-la land of "OMG, they took money and valuables from luggage, that's going to RUIN our ability to tell whether this was mechanical, missile, Russia, Ukraine" etc. Please. Any moron can see through the prejudice and propaganda coming from this site right now. Tone it down.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is the agency in the United States Government responsible for the investigation of transportation accidents. Not sure why the TSA did anything at the crash site??? But i do agree with you to an extent but there is always key pieces of evidence that indeed could go missing. They might be able to prove it was a missile but in an investigation they want to reconstruct everything meaning from start to finish if parts come up missing they cant do that. Thats why the reconstruct the plane in the first place to see what damage was where.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: dragonridr

The other issue is the fact the crime scene has pretty much been destroyed.

Dutch forensic team 'impressed' by work at MH17 crash site

www.bbc.co.uk...


But.. you're the expert.. right. Every time I read your posts, all I see is anti-russian hatred.

You act like you know more than the experts on the ground, the experts from the country with the most people dead, the experts with the years of experience and years of training.

It is VERY VERY CLEAR, you have an agenda, an anti-russian one at that.

YOU don't want to get to the truth, you just want to point fingers. YOU are not helping anybody. In fact people like you HINDER it and get in the way of the people WHO DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT because it is very clear, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

originally posted by: dragonridr
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is the agency in the United States Government responsible for the investigation of transportation accidents. Not sure why the TSA did anything at the crash site???

It's 4AM. My bad, you're right. NTSB. Eye roll. You knew what I meant, but bully for you in getting that jab in.

So tell me, if it was the rebels, they're already being blamed and furthermore, it's already going up the chain to blaming Putin himself. WHY would the rebels let ANYONE come take incriminating pics of the crash like they have (again, as evidenced by the enormous amounts of pics of valuable pieces), wouldn't they either let NO ONE but Russia in or just blow the site up or take EVERYTHING away before they let anyone in? Nope, they're paranoid about spies, but they're cooperating as much as any drunken-idiot-rebels could be expected to. Why? Ostensibly because they want to be cleared.

Mull it over.

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere but the uk are now re opening the investigation into the murder of Alexander litvinenko. It might seem OT but the timing is far from coincidental.

www.bbc.co.uk...

I'm not suggesting any kind of huge conspiracy re this, but an expert on bbc radio this morning suggested that it was easier to challenge Russia over this in light of so much anti-Russian sentiment. It's a shame that it's taken such a tragic event as this for the uk government to think that now is the right time, because previously it wasn't beneficial to their polls, so they allowed this to go unpunished when potentially it goes right to the top.

a reply to: MRM13

The timeline makes it look coincidental. His wife has been in the British legal system for years now trying to force the more in-depth public inquest instead of the judge led one (according to the article). I would normally agree with the timing implication but the timeline provided in the article kind of disputes the insinuation this is politically driven based on current events.

a reply to: Kratos40
Spot on!!
3 culprits for me
1. Putin for irresponsibly arming the rebels with such weaponry knowing full well any plane could be a target
2. The rebels for such A hole mentality with slant regard for human life
3. Malaysian Airlines an International flight management operations.

They should all be brought to book!

If it was my kids, I would want their heads!
If fact take them anyway for me!!!