Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 00nunya00

Its was a response to spy66, as the first part states. The second part is directed at him and not you. My apologies on the name mixup. - Fixed

Yeah, mixups happen when you just judge and type in haste. Anyone else want to dogpile on that mistake and "reinforce it" for this poster who loves reinforcing the corrections of mistakes so much?

a reply to: 00nunya00

Not in haste..

Either way pile it on. I enjoy a good argument.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 00nunya00

Not in haste..

Either way pile it on. I enjoy a good argument.

So it was intentional, or you're just slow even when making a mistake?

a reply to: 00nunya00

Not intentional...
not in haste...
not slow...

im not a pro russian rebel or a putinite.
what else ya got?

and please oh please let it be on topic.. That way we get get back to the matter at hand instead of sinking to the level of pro russian rebels or putinites.

I didn't think the rebels were winning the fight lately.. they've been pushed out of cities in the area and stomped on hard by Kiev. I'd say the rebels are only coming out to the wreckage when the media/camera's are there. Yanky banked Ukrainians are least likely to shoot when the camera's are there!

As for looting.. we're talking about wallets and jewellery. Its probably the locals just as much as the militia! a nice watch helps out in far eastern, old soviet Ukraine! Looting is bad but lets not pretend American Marines didn't loot dead bodies back in Japanese territory, too!

Been watching the Media? the local press are just as stupid. There has been plenty of incidents coming out where media are going through things for a 'scoop' or picking up pieces for a hot photo..


Link

its a case of being an idiot.. not being sum ''anti-jew-hating-putin loving-snackbaring anti'' American!

I loved the Murdoch Media spin a tail of complete bull-plop about the evil soviets moving the bodies headlines..
Tripping over themselves to slam the USSR in the font pages only to realize.. the bodies needed to be moved.. because they were rotting.. in the sun, on TV!



I'm not fussed with the way the bodies were packed up, loaded on, shifted and stored. But I bet you are?.. the media says so right?..

None of this matters much, I'm just proving a point of American Ignorance.

Who shot the plane down?

- Did Ukraine disguise the aircraft's beacon, signature, what ever.. so the rebels would fire on it?
- Did the Ukrainians shoot it down with an aircraft, then blamed it on the Soviets?
- Is it MH370 full of bodies being thrown into the dirt, to confuse and blame on the USSR?
- Or did the rebels really just shoot a plane out of the sky, talk about it on radio.. then sh1t them selves when they saw Malaysia Airlines markings


and Putin calling on the telephone?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 00nunya00

Not intentional...
not in haste...
not slow...

im not a pro russian rebel or a putinite.
what else ya got?

I'm not for either side, either. They can both nuke each other into stupid war-mongering, ethnic cleansing annihilation if they want to, I have no connections or interest in countries that just want to solve their problems with guns. But I do have an interest in getting the TRUTH, and from everything I've learned from the well-vetted threads here, and 34 years of watching my country frame people they don't like so that we can just go bomb them for Halliburton, I've learned to be very, very picky when it comes to "evidence". I think maybe you should review a little document called "Operation Northwoods." It will blow your mind.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
I didn't think the rebels were winning the fight lately.. they've been pushed out of cities in the area and stomped on hard by Kiev. I'd say the rebels are only coming out to the wreckage when the media/camera's are there. Yanky banked Ukrainians are least likely to shoot when the camera's are there!

You are giving a mixed signal on this one. According to the rebels and several members the rebels are winning. According to others they control that area. Since Ukraine and rebels are still mashing it out in that area I would say its firmyl in the rebels hands.

If it werent there would be no need for the UN to issue the statement they did nor would the experts have been refused access to the scene.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
As for looting.. we're talking about wallets and jewellery. Its probably the locals just as much as the militia! a nice watch helps out in far eastern, old soviet Ukraine! Looting is bad but lets not pretend American Marines didn't loot dead bodies back in Japanese territory, too!

So the rebels will let anyone in except those who can investigate what brought the plane down?

Or are we ignoring their comment about turning over everything to Russia?

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Been watching the Media? the local press are just as stupid. There has been plenty of incidents coming out where media are going through things for a 'scoop' or picking up pieces for a hot photo..

Link

its a case of being an idiot.. not being sum ''anti-jew-hating-putin loving-snackbaring anti'' American!

So looting is ok in a crime scene when its locals doing it? And again they can get into the scene and loot while the experts are refused access.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
I loved the Murdoch Media spin a tail of complete bull-plop about the evil soviets moving the bodies headlines..
Tripping over themselves to slam the USSR in the font pages only to realize.. the bodies needed to be moved.. because they were rotting.. in the sun, on TV!

Being left outside for 4 days and then being dragged out and placed into body bags. It contaminates the crime scene. Were forensic photos taken of the bodies prior to removal?

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
I'm not fussed with the way the bodies were packed up, loaded on, shifted and stored. But I bet you are?.. the media says so right?..

I am because its not how a crime scene is processed. Not because the media says so, I am not Russian.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
None of this matters much, I'm just proving a point of American Ignorance.

more of your own than American.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Who shot the plane down?

According to the Russians a few hours after the incident happened Ukraine did. They Russian even said so on wikipedia, after they got done editing the entry to reflect that unproven point. I find it Ironic you and others have issues with a claim that points back at Russia but no issues when it points elsewhere.

Would that be more of your ignorance?

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
- Did Ukraine disguise the aircraft's beacon, signature, what ever.. so the rebels would fire on it?

Your ignorance is showing even more in this statement - both in terms of who and your lack of knowledge on the aircraft.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
- Did the Ukrainians shoot it down with an aircraft, then blamed it on the Soviets?

Actually the Russians said Ukraine shot it down with an aircraft, an aircraft that cannot reach the flight level required to do so. That only came up because their original claim, that Ukraine shot it down with a BUK because rebels dont have them, went out the window when ITAR-TASS stated the rebels in fact had BUK systems.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
- Is it MH370 full of bodies being thrown into the dirt, to confuse and blame on the USSR?

MH370 has never been located so im not sure how its even a part of this conversation.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
- Or did the rebels really just shoot a plane out of the sky, talk about it on radio.. then sh1t them selves when they saw Malaysia Airlines markings

Thats the theory im going with right now based on the rebel claims on social media.

a reply to: 00nunya00

So your position is based on past history and paranoia?

Because Putin has never lied or framed another country or ordered anyone killed right?

Dont look now, but your biased.

Let's be adults here, please.

No one in their right minds will shoot down an civilian airliner, let's take that as a point of departure.

This is a tragic accident as it stands now, civilian planes were flying in an area that was unsafe.
There were three planes in that area close to each other which were AIC113, MH17 and SIA351. (Air India, Malaysia Airlines, Singapore Airlines)
MH17 was hit, but they did no purposely shoot down a civilian airliner, that is clear when one hears the audio recordings.
Also it is clear they expected to have shot down a antonov 26 but it turned out to be civilian.

Let's skip the finger pointing, three planes flew over a warzone which is clearly unsafe and should have been closed down for air traffic.
Of course there will be propaganda from every side, but let's not be polluted by it and think for ourselves.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
As for looting.. we're talking about wallets and jewellery. Its probably the locals just as much as the militia! a nice watch helps out in far eastern, old soviet Ukraine! Looting is bad but lets not pretend American Marines didn't loot dead bodies back in Japanese territory, too!

So the rebels will let anyone in except those who can investigate what brought the plane down?

Or are we ignoring their comment about turning over everything to Russia?

Ummmm......have you not seen the multitudes of reporters, helping document important evidence-proving pieces of fuselage? Have you not seen the pics of soldiers from lots of countries IN THIS THREAD, like from Great Britain? Have you read the thread? Aaaannnd.....last I heard, we were discussing the fact that the Dutch finally showed up and called it a "good job"? Hrmmm.....

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Been watching the Media? the local press are just as stupid. There has been plenty of incidents coming out where media are going through things for a 'scoop' or picking up pieces for a hot photo..

its a case of being an idiot.. not being sum ''anti-jew-hating-putin loving-snackbaring anti'' American!

So looting is ok in a crime scene when its locals doing it? And again they can get into the scene and loot while the experts are refused access.

Again, obfuscation and avoiding the real question. He didn't say it was "okay" he said looting happens, and it's not always because someone is trying to destroy a crime scene or hide evidence. Stay on topic. No straw men here.

a reply to: earthling42

That is the prime issue some seem to have. They are trying to argue their position from the angle that they are being accused of intentionally targeting a civilian airplane. They have to argue from that point in order for their argument to work correctly.

The recent comments to some of my posts in this thread and others make the same argument. They argue from the point of this being intentional and not accidental.

originally posted by: earthling42
Let's be adults here, please.

No one in their right minds will shoot down an civilian airliner, let's take that as a point of departure.

This is a tragic accident as it stands now, civilian planes were flying in an area that was unsafe.

Don't be so sure.

What we're dealing with here is the phenomenon of popular belief systems. Every society has its own fetishes and taboos, and the USA is no different. Within a given society, a F or T is never defined as such; rather it's a reality which everyone takes for granted. It can be something like "only women wear dresses" [although here in San Francisco don't be too sure]. Indeed some taboos are so essential to the national consciousness that it's heresy to even acknowledge their existence or call them "taboos". The big one here is of course: "The United States never kills or allows to be killed its own people." It's taken for granted that lots of other countries do this, for instance in Latin America, but never here!

Michael Aquino AMA

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 00nunya00

So your position is based on past history and paranoia?

Because Putin has never lied or framed another country or ordered anyone killed right?

Dont look now, but your biased.

You're right, I am biased: I'M BIASED TOWARDS TRUTH, AND NOT WAR-MONGERING PROPAGANDA BY EITHER SIDE. When one side says it "knows" and will not show me concrete evidence, and just says "trust me, we can't show you because it would reveal our awesome NSA toys, but let's just go to war" then yeah, I got a problem.

Putin is a d-bag and needs to go fly off with his beloved geese. I don't want to see another shirtless pic of that dude ever again. He's as bad as his bestie Bush who called him "Pootie" was.

"The best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior." Take that one to heart, I promise you it will serve you well. The US was in the "evidence"-manufacturing business from WW2 at least, probably earlier. Do try to learn from history, or you will help repeat it.

a reply to: Xcathdra

So looting is ok in a crime scene when its locals doing it? And again they can get into the scene and loot while the experts are refused access.

You probably missed the part where I said looting was bad, no biggie I forgive you!
and I agree, the inspectors being hassled in the first day and not being allowed complete access is wrong and needs to be investigated. But they've now got the black boxes, there are still large parts of the fuselage sitting at the disused army base next to the paddock and i just saw a live feed from a reported who panned the camera.. its a ghost town right now with 2 guards on a hill watching over it. If anyone wanted to inspect anything they could!

Were forensic photos taken of the bodies prior to removal?

.. dunno, do you? There sure has been a lot of camera's there..
but, does it matter? so you don't have a high def photo of a smashed body lying in grass. This isnt CSI, they were in a plane that blew up at 30 something thousand feet and they landed in this paddock. I'm on the otherside of the world and I can guess what killed them!

I agree with you that the Rebels most likely shot it down, it was an accident, wtf was Malaysian Airlines doing flying through this area when every other airline was avoiding it. what happened to aircraft defenses? I thought large Boeing had flare installed?

all I'm saying is, don't believe what your hearing about the evil soviets and shameful rebels.. no doubt your government is doing just as bad a moral acts in the area for their own gain - they're just better at keeping it away from the media!

originally posted by: 00nunya00
Ummmm......have you not seen the multitudes of reporters, helping document important evidence-proving pieces of fuselage? Have you not seen the pics of soldiers from lots of countries IN THIS THREAD, like from Great Britain? Have you read the thread?

Aaaannnd.....last I heard, we were discussing the fact that the Dutch finally showed up and called it a "good job"? Hrmmm.....

I was not aware you were an expert in forensic photography. Nor was I aware that members of the media were either. Well then, case closed.. Good thing we have pictures that have no forensic quality to them what so ever.

originally posted by: 00nunya00
Again, obfuscation and avoiding the real question. He didn't say it was "okay" he said looting happens, and it's not always because someone is trying to destroy a crime scene or hide evidence. Stay on topic. No straw men here.

It only happens when the people controlling the scene are morons and have no idea what they are doing. i am going to assume you have no background in investigations and crime scene processing or air crash investigations. If you did we would not be having this conversation right now.

Anytime a person enters a crime scene, it affects the crime scene. Did the rebels or media take photos completely using required standards? How many points of entry and exit were there to each scene? Who was in control of logging who enters the scene and when they leave it? Who logged evidence documentation / collection before removal of those items?

Was every single person on scene documented as being present at the scene?

My guess would a be slurred voice with a strong smell of vodka and a "nyet".

If you dont understand the need to secure a scene and control it then dont try and make an argument revolving around it.

a reply to: 00nunya00

yes yes there is no present or future, only the past repeating itself over and over.


well played.

a reply to: Xcathdra
Editing because you're just going to take it off-topic again.

To your arguments: so again, you want forensic evidence of something you're claiming has no bearing on whether you KNOW who did this and how? Rich. Ridiculous, but rich. Admit you have no evidence, or stop claiming the "forensic evidence" has any bearing on your opinion, or ever will.




Edit: upload a pic of your NTSB badge. (Got the acronym right that time! ) Because if you're not NTSB, don't accuse anyone of being less experienced than you in plane crash investigation. I'm assuming YOU have no background in crime scene investigation either. Upload any single badge in any single crime scene investigation field at all, and I will admit my inferiority.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
You probably missed the part where I said looting was bad, no biggie I forgive you!
and I agree, the inspectors being hassled in the first day and not being allowed complete access is wrong and needs to be investigated. But they've now got the black boxes, there are still large parts of the fuselage sitting at the disused army base next to the paddock and i just saw a live feed from a reported who panned the camera.. its a ghost town right now with 2 guards on a hill watching over it. If anyone wanted to inspect anything they could!

Nothing like a mass murder scene where its left open for 4 days for people to come and do and take whatever they wish, including bodies and evidence.

You and the others just dont get it when it comes to air crash investigations. There is a reason those scenes are secured and experts are called in. The only reason to do what the rebels did was to destroy the rime scene. To remove / destroy evidence.

Where is the debris the rebels removed from the scene? Is it available to the investigators?

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
.. dunno, do you? There sure has been a lot of camera's there..
but, does it matter? so you don't have a high def photo of a smashed body lying in grass. This isnt CSI, they were in a plane that blew up at 30 something thousand feet and they landed in this paddock. I'm on the otherside of the world and I can guess what killed them!

The manner in which media / individuals take photos is nowhere close to crime scene standards. Secondly should we look at chain of evidence for those photos?

also, this is one of those incidents where CSI is needed, not the media.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
I agree with you that the Rebels most likely shot it down, it was an accident, wtf was Malaysian Airlines doing flying through this area when every other airline was avoiding it. what happened to aircraft defenses? I thought large Boeing had flare installed?

thats one of my main issues right now is the manner in which the plane came down. Everything the pro Russian side does is based on the plane being intentionally targeted with knowledge it was a civilian aircraft. To my knowledge, even the US has not taken the stance that they intentionally targeted a civilian airliner.

As for why they were there - The airspace they were in was not closed / restricted. It was only restricted under 32k feet. the fact remains you don't shoot at an unidentified target, especially when its in an international commercial air route.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
all I'm saying is, don't believe what your hearing about the evil soviets and shameful rebels.. no doubt your government is doing just as bad a moral acts in the area for their own gain - they're just better at keeping it away from the media!

And i have no issues taking my government to task for those actions, as I have done in the past. To try and make that argument though in this situation, at least to me, is irrelevant. Its like arguing that since the US messed up and brought down Ian Iranian Commercial airliner that the rebels / russia can do the same and its no big deal.

What does our past history have to do with the here and now and this incident? If we go down that road we can look at KAL 007 that the Soviet Union shot down, and then lied and tried to cover it up. Or when Ukraine accidentally shot down the Russian commercial jet a year or so ago and tried to cover it up.

None of those incidents have anything to do with what occurred now. Trying to constantly drag those in only opens the door for the other side to do the same.

In this instance the Russians have been caught lying about Ukraine since day 1.

a reply to: 00nunya00

You are really going out of your way to drag this off topic arent you.

Was it an air to air missile?
was it a sam?
what direction was the plane hit from?
what was the angle of the missile?
how fast was the plane traveling?
how fast was the missile traveling?
based on direction of both what was the closure speed/angle of impact?
how far away was it when it exploded, impacting the aircraft?
what caused the plane to disintegrate?

i can keep going but i am not going to waste any more of my time trying to explain this to you.

All of the above can be answered with an intact / secure crime scene. Since the rebels opted to move items around and cart items off good luck answering the above. Especially when you dont know where the items were found / how far they penetrated into the ground, the angle they were in the ground etc etc etc.

You guys claim you want the truth...

If that were true then the manner in which the crime scene was destroyed should upset you as much as it does everyone else. With the rebels doing what they did, they just made getting to the truth a whole lot harder.

Why would the truth be scary for rebels who claim their innocent of the charges?