Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: spy66
This basically means she hasnt seen the report. And she never will. Because it dosent exist. Russia have already displaied theirs. So the US have to play a different card.

She saw it since she has access to it.

How do you know? She never said she had seen it.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: spy66
Actually the US could show its evidence but it would reveal its methods if it did. The radar image looked manufactured to me. Also that su=25 cant get to 32,000. the su25 was around if it was at max alt was about 8-9 miles distance out.

su 25s air ro air missile

This missile was way outside range to be used onthe malaysian flight.But what about another one? hold ya horses its coming.

other air to air missile

read the platforms this one is used on. no SU-25

SO how did a su-25...fire a missile that had a 5 mile range over 8 miles away from it hit a airliner above its ceiling? it defys the laws of psychics.

Well its not like its a secrete when the US go Public and say they have radar images of a pro-russian BUK missile.

If they claim to have radar evidence of a pro-sussian BUK missile heading for the MH17. They should back it up With the evidence they claim to have.

If not what ever John Kerry fart out of he's mouth is just a stinking lie.


When it comes to the SU-25 it must be the outhor of the News report who have made a mistake. If any evidence ever get presented all this will be sorted out. But i doubt it. The US are playing the investigation card for all its Worth, because they know its not going to be a objective one.

Looks like the Russians have already got caught lying on there radar data. Turns out on the radar they used to show there was an SU26 in the area thet forgot to get rid of the designation on the radar return. It show it to be the a Singapore flight probably Singapore 351. So um i wouldnt hold to much stock in the Russian release apparently it wasnt planned very well.

originally posted by: roadgravel

The radar image looked manufactured to me.

It looks like Singapore 351 the link

It's gone from the page now.

Yeah i saw that they tore apart the Russian news conference the general misquoted the range of the missile system at altitude there was the identifier on the radar return. And what they didnt tell you in there response is the launchers were at a Ukrainian base so of course they should be there. opps so much for Russian propaganda i guess that stuff works in Russia but apparently in the rest of the world they pick up on things quickly. Cant really blame the Russian people though media is controlled.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: spy66
Actually the US could show its evidence but it would reveal its methods if it did. The radar image looked manufactured to me. Also that su=25 cant get to 32,000. the su25 was around if it was at max alt was about 8-9 miles distance out.

su 25s air ro air missile

This missile was way outside range to be used onthe malaysian flight.But what about another one? hold ya horses its coming.

other air to air missile

read the platforms this one is used on. no SU-25

SO how did a su-25...fire a missile that had a 5 mile range over 8 miles away from it hit a airliner above its ceiling? it defys the laws of psychics.

Well its not like its a secrete when the US go Public and say they have radar images of a pro-russian BUK missile.

If they claim to have radar evidence of a pro-sussian BUK missile heading for the MH17. They should back it up With the evidence they claim to have.

If not what ever John Kerry fart out of he's mouth is just a stinking lie.


When it comes to the SU-25 it must be the outhor of the News report who have made a mistake. If any evidence ever get presented all this will be sorted out. But i doubt it. The US are playing the investigation card for all its Worth, because they know its not going to be a objective one.

Looks like the Russians have already got caught lying on there radar data. Turns out on the radar they used to show there was an SU26 in the area thet forgot to get rid of the designation on the radar return. It show it to be the a Singapore flight probably Singapore 351. So um i wouldnt hold to much stock in the Russian release apparently it wasnt planned very well.

Bawaaaaaaaaaaaa.... @ ruskie incompetence!

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: spy66
This basically means she hasnt seen the report. And she never will. Because it dosent exist. Russia have already displaied theirs. So the US have to play a different card.

She saw it since she has access to it.

How do you know? She never said she had seen it.

She is the ranking chair on the senate intelligence committee. She addressed the media on the issue. She has called for the evidence to be declassified and released. If she had not seen it why would she call for it to be declassified and released?

Had she not seen it she would not have spoken on the issue, let alone the fact the info is classified.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: spy66
Actually the US could show its evidence but it would reveal its methods if it did. The radar image looked manufactured to me. Also that su=25 cant get to 32,000. the su25 was around if it was at max alt was about 8-9 miles distance out.

su 25s air ro air missile

This missile was way outside range to be used onthe malaysian flight.But what about another one? hold ya horses its coming.

other air to air missile

read the platforms this one is used on. no SU-25

SO how did a su-25...fire a missile that had a 5 mile range over 8 miles away from it hit a airliner above its ceiling? it defys the laws of psychics.

Well its not like its a secrete when the US go Public and say they have radar images of a pro-russian BUK missile.

If they claim to have radar evidence of a pro-sussian BUK missile heading for the MH17. They should back it up With the evidence they claim to have.

If not what ever John Kerry fart out of he's mouth is just a stinking lie.


When it comes to the SU-25 it must be the outhor of the News report who have made a mistake. If any evidence ever get presented all this will be sorted out. But i doubt it. The US are playing the investigation card for all its Worth, because they know its not going to be a objective one.

Looks like the Russians have already got caught lying on there radar data. Turns out on the radar they used to show there was an SU26 in the area thet forgot to get rid of the designation on the radar return. It show it to be the a Singapore flight probably Singapore 351. So um i wouldnt hold to much stock in the Russian release apparently it wasnt planned very well.

If you really look at the radar image. And fallow the information signature from 351. You will see that 351 is fallowing a different cource further up on the image.

The information signganture is just on top of the downed signature of the Mh17.

a reply to: dragonridr

Lol...

I think the Russian government has ignored the fact that since the cold war is over with, what they say on tv is reported on in markets that never used to get access to their briefings, let lone report on them.

As I have said time and again.. This is not the cold war...

I wish Putin would understand that. For being a former colonel in the KGB he sure is stupid at times.

Hello everybody..
Well.... today i got a very disturbing email from an coworker.
He told me that one of my old coworkers was on board the plain with her whole family.

Her name was Yvonne Kappen and i knew her for about ten years.
Just lost track of her a few years ago.
I also knew her partner and her two children...

I'm so shocked that i feel sick.

When i heared about the crash, i knew it would be a lifechanging event...but i never knew it would come so close to me.

Rest in Peace Yvonne.. I will allways remember you.

a reply to: Xcathdra

If she had not seen it why would she call for it to be declassified and released?

So that she can take a look at it that is why. Just because she is a ranking Chair does not mean she has seen it, or that the evidence even exist.

a reply to: spy66

How does something unidentified at 36K equal mh-17 after it went down. Not surprised they didn't show both actual planes which would prove it was there with a fighter near by.

Dutch forensic team 'impressed' by work at MH17 crash site

The leader of a Dutch forensics team has said he was impressed with the work done at the site of the MH17 airliner crash in Ukraine.

Forensics expert Peter Van Vliet said: "I think they did a hell of a job in a hell of a place".

Pro-Russian rebels have allowed bodies from the Malaysia Airlines plane crash to be taken to the city of Kharkiv.

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: spy66

How does something unidentified at 36K equal mh-17 after it went down. Not surprised they didn't show both actual planes which would prove it was there with a fighter near by.

If im understanding you correctly are you talking about a fighter? Well the jet maxes out at 16000 ft when armed so obviously wasnt a military aircraft. Thats why they played the game on there video they made to make it seem like the aircraft was much closer on the radar return. See what they did was took an identified craft that poped above 5000 ft but than disappeared again and tried to make it out that it was the Singapore flight through creative editing.

Problem is no jets were in the area im guessing it was a helicopter but theres no wat to know what it was wasnt even long enough for them to get a track. Russian news media has just been throwing stuff out there hoping something will stick in fact here was an interesting news column on what Russian media is thinking and why Russians fall for it. Funniest part is ive seen these things here on ATS as well so i guess it makes it easy to spot a Russian posting.

d you know Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently reinsured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

Well, it’s all true—at least if you live in Russia, because this is the Malaysia Airlines crash story that you’d be seeing.

But in Russia, television—most of it owned or controlled by the Kremlin—is trying to muddy the water with various experts who insist that there is no way that an SA-11 missile system could possibly have downed a plane flying that high. And, mind you, this is not part of a larger debate of could they, or couldn’t they; this is all of Russian television and state-friendly papers pushing one line: The pro-Russian separatists we’ve been supporting all these months couldn’t have done this. Watching some of these Russian newscasts, one comes away with the impression of a desperate defense attorney scrounging for experts and angles, or a bad kid caught red-handed by the principal, trying to twist his way out of a situation in which he has no chance.

And that’s when they’re not simply peddling conspiracy theories, which have become a kind of symbiotic feedback loop between state TV and the most inventive corners of the Internet. The best of the bunch is, of course, an elaborate one: MH17 is actually MH370, that Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared into the Indian Ocean. According to this theory, the plane didn’t disappear at all, “it was taken to an American military base, Diego-Garcia.”

But though it may look unconvincing to us in the West, that is because we have seen and read other things that contradict it. The Russian media space has become so uniform and independent voices so cowed and marginalized that there is no counterweight and, when there’s no counterweight, if you repeat a thing often enough, it becomes the truth.

This isn’t an innocent you-say-tomato moment; this is a very problematic development. The result of all this Russian coverage is that Russians’ understanding of what happened is as follows. At best, the crash is an unfortunate accident on the part of the Ukrainian military that the West is trying to pin on Russia, which had nothing to do with it; at worst, it is all part of a nefarious conspiracy to drag Russia into an apocalyptic war with the West. So whereas the West sees the crash as a game-changer, the Russians do not see why a black swan event has to change anything or they want to resist what they see is a provocation. To them, after a few days of watching Russian television, it’s not at all clear what happened nor that their government is somehow responsible for this tragedy. And the more we insist on it, the less likely the Russians are to agree.

After Putin’s ascent, media became the flexible element that could be readjusted for any twist or turn of the political rudder. “Today, it’s the opposite,” says Gleb Pavlovsky, a political consultant who helped Putin win his first election and was a Kremlin advisor for years afterwards. “It’s almost impossible to turn the rudder of the picture that’s formed on television because it would mean losing the audience they formed in this year” of sword-brandishing and imperialistic conquest.

This audience is now fired up and brandishing its own swords, and the propaganda apparatus, much like the rebels in eastern Ukraine, has rolled on and on, fed by inertia and paranoia, reproducing and magnifying itself with each newscast. The sensationalized newscasts are now neck-and-neck, ratings-wise, with the sitcoms. “It keeps people in a traumatized state,” Pavlovsky says. “It’s notable in media metrics, and in conversations with people. They lose their sanity, they become paranoid and aggressive.”

This does explain the lack any critical thinking ive seen in some people on the net. Heres the article.

www.newrepublic.com...

Latest developments

A UN resolution has been adopted which means there must be immediate and unrestricted acces to the area of the crash to investigate.
A few hours ago the train, loaded with bodies left Torez and is on it's way to Charkov which is under control of Ukrainian government, so the bodies should be home soon.
Malaysia had a meeting with Boroday during which they would receive the black boxes, but 2,5 hours after the meeting twitter feeds tell they do not think they will receive them tonight.

Russia has been presenting questions and pictures and told that the Malaysian aircraft was followed by two Ukrainian fighter jets, SU-25.
Their altitude was 10000 mter, the same as MH17 according to Russia but when i read about this type of fighter jets, their ceiling is 7000 mtr?

What is clear though is that there is no doubt that MH17 has been shot down with an ground to air missile carrying a fragmentation warhead.
The pictures that were put online during the weekend from the crash area showed that what ever happened must have originated at the front of the plane.
With the latest pictures, this has become a certainty.

This part is the right front side of the fuselage


Same piece of fuselage but from another angle


Garco floor from the back of the aircraft.


The backside of the fuselage


More telling is this piece from the fuselage from port side cockpit section showing heavy shrapnel damage consistent with SA-11 hit

originally posted by: earthling42
Latest developments

A UN resolution has been adopted which means there must be immediate and unrestricted acces to the area of the crash to investigate.
A few hours ago the train, loaded with bodies left Torez and is on it's way to Charkov which is under control of Ukrainian government, so the bodies should be home soon.
Malaysia had a meeting with Boroday during which they would receive the black boxes, but 2,5 hours after the meeting twitter feeds tell they do not think they will receive them tonight.

Russia has been presenting questions and pictures and told that the Malaysian aircraft was followed by two Ukrainian fighter jets, SU-25.
Their altitude was 10000 mter, the same as MH17 according to Russia but when i read about this type of fighter jets, their ceiling is 7000 mtr?

What is clear though is that there is no doubt that MH17 has been shot down with an ground to air missile carrying a fragmentation warhead.
The pictures that were put online during the weekend from the crash area showed that what ever happened must have originated at the front of the plane.
With the latest pictures, this has become a certainty.

This part is the right front side of the fuselage

Same piece of fuselage but from another angle

Garco floor from the back of the aircraft.

The backside of the fuselage

More telling is this piece from the fuselage from port side cockpit section showing heavy shrapnel damage consistent with SA-11 hit

Interesting, the impact was with the nose and not the tail?

I thought SAM's et al went for the tail.

The main crash area with the mid section, wings, landing gears and both engines.







This seems to be the tip of the left wing which also seems to have shrapnel damage.

i was reported by an independent journalist early on that the tail fell a distance away from the plane which gives the impression it was severed from the plane in the air. That would obviously cause the crash.

originally posted by: roadgravel
i was reported by an independent journalist early on that the tail fell a distance away from the plane which gives the impression it was severed from the plane in the air. That would obviously cause the crash.

Exactly, so now we are talking about MULTPLE sources of damage from MULTIPLE weapons.

SAM will go for the tail, slice through it, and a plane without a tail only does one thing, land, BADLY.


So multiple MISSILES, all from Buk or one Buk and one from the SU tailing it?

I would imagine a single missile could do it. I am not a AA missile guy though.

a reply to: moobie

I'm not an expert on weapons, but from what i know, when a target is locked the missile is fired, when the missile sees its target it will follow its target.
The missile is fired towards the aircraft from the front left, so that is consistent with the impact area.
Maybe Zaphod58 might give us more information on this, from what i have seen he has great knowledge about weapons.

originally posted by: roadgravel
I would imagine a single missile could do it. I am not a AA missile guy though.

A single missile can slice through the TAIL, and punch a HOLE in the COCKPIT, AND slice wing sections?

That's some amazing missile tech.