Atheists being persecuted in the USA.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Very well said.

As an agnostic, I respect everyone's religious beliefs .....or lack thereof. But, I feel very strongly that we must cleanly separate religion and government. If one belief is held in higher regard (Christianity) than the rest, it can only lead to persecution.

Do you remember the scene from the movie Contact where Jodie Foster loses her seat on the Machine all because she did not believe in god? That scene really highlighted the way people think, how close-minded they can be and how much religion (a personal spiritual journey) has crept into our national being.

I hope that makes sense.....haven't had much sleep.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Atheists being persecuted in the USA.

Pic related.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Before we continue, there are a few things that should be stated:

African Americans, cannot change who they are, cannot hide in plain sight.
Gay people are born the way that they are.

But when it comes to religion, the very ideology, that is a choice. Someone who is say Catholic, can become a Baptist, or a Methodist.
An African American cannot become white or Chinese so easily, nor can a gay person suddenly become straight.

In god we trust has been on the currency for years, since 1864.
And it has been in use in the National Anthem of the country, and in most songs about the United States of America. The most notable song is God Bless America. Even My Country Tis of thee, has reference to God.
Do you propose that the very songs used to sing of pride in the country now be changed?

While I do agree, that we should all be equal, however, there has to be caution in such. Far too often those who were once persecuted and demonized, tend to once they have what turn around and become those who persecute.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: Annee
So tell me where does it end?

I remember a time, while young, where people did not worry too much about this issue, where it was not considered to be pressing or firm. But it seems like any mention of anything religious and someone gets offended.

The thing about memory is it's selective. BTW I'm 67.

If you're speaking about a time when minorities kept their mouths shut because they had no legal recourse, no that is not good.

I had Jewish kids in my public grade school that were forced to participate in the yearly Christmas pageant because of Christian dominance.

That was wrong then and it's still wrong.

a reply to: Auricom

Guess you are one of the Christians persecuting others by that post.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Auricom

Guess you are one of the Christians persecuting others by that post.

It's not persecution if they're "saving our immortal souls".

a reply to: AfterInfinity

lol I forgot that lol.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
If one belief is held in higher regard (Christianity) than the rest, it can only lead to persecution.

Exactly. And one belief has historically been held in higher regard in this country and that's why you have others saying that they are persecuted, like the guy in the OP.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

Dear sheepslayer,

I believe I'd write this regardless of the belief system you maintain. You write something I've heard mentioned well over a hundred times, and has become a "given" in the minds of many Americans. No, I'm not accusing you of a lack of originality, or thought. Anyone who knows you at all, knows that neither of those is true. Here's what I'm thinking about:

As an agnostic, I respect everyone's religious beliefs .....or lack thereof. But, I feel very strongly that we must cleanly separate religion and government. If one belief is held in higher regard (Christianity) than the rest, it can only lead to persecution.

You've put so much into that, that I'm afraid that I'll need a paragraph to ask my question, but here goes.




Why?

It seems to me that from the very beginning of the country, the citizens have held Christianity in higher regard than the the rest of the religions. Granted that a favored religion has led to persecution in Islamic countries, but there the religion is the State.

You seem to be saying that Christianity must be kept completely away from the State, or we will have persecution by Christians. Why is that such a given in the US? Forgive me for taking this to an extreme, but you seem to be saying that by putting a Christmas creche on the Court House lawn, we have started down a path which absolutely must lead to persecution by Christians.

I'm surprised that the President's Thanksgiving message hasn't resulted in a requirement that everyone will be taxed 10% and that will be sent to Rome.

If the State must be kept separate from religion, why can churches be required to submit documentation showing they are still eligible for the great blessing of being untaxed by the government? Why are the churches suing Obama to get him out of their health care agreements? Why are teacher's in government schools fired for simply having a bible on their desk. Not reading it or talking about it, just possessing it where it can be seen. Why do some schools ban the wearing of rosaries, if the state is separate from religion? Why do some public schools take field trips to Mosques to listen to Islamic instructors, but Notre Dame has to cover their Crucifixes before the President will agree to speak there.

It seems to me that this "separation" as being used today, is very close from prohibiting religion from doing anything out side of the walls of their church, and subject to whatever government requirement which occurs to D.C.'s mind.

Please explain why you believe we are facing the danger of the Episcopalians taking over anything, or the Pope jailing Americans who eat meat on Friday.

The threat isn't that Christians will prosecute non-Christians, the threat is that the government will increase it's persecution of Christians.

Maybe, I misread your post.

If one belief is held in higher regard (Christianity) than the rest, it can only lead to persecution.

You are absolutely right. It has led to persecution. Of the Christians. Mild, to be sure, but it's there and increasing.

Of course, for many Americans that is the preferred outcome. I hope you're not one of those.

With respect,
Charles1952

In all honesty, anyone with a particular belief, or "non-belief" is going to be persecuted by those of a differing belief system...That's just humanity at its finest.

As far as Christians being those who persecute the atheists...I will humbly speak on their behalf.

If in any manner you(the atheist) feels persecuted, I apologize. The Christian motivation should be to let God shine through them and their actions. We are not called to criticize and condemn nonbelievers...We are called to be salt and light to the world....

James 4:12 makes it clear that judging one another is certainly not our position or duty....
"There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?" (NIV)

Colossions 4:5-6 speaks about conduct towards outsiders...or nonbelievers....

"Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone," (NIV)

And Yeshua himself said
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that"(Matt 5:46-47, NIV)

If at any point in time a "Christian" does something other than show the love and grace of Christ Jesus....These 2-3 verses should be more than enough to convict them of their own vile actions....If not, then they know not the Word...

A2D

a reply to: boymonkey74

LOL

Being Atheist is like putting a giant neon sign above your head that says " I"M GOING TO CHALLENGE YOUR BELIEFS".

Ofcourse the religious are going to persecute you.

No more than they do each other, so I don't see why everybody is shocked.

~Tenth

a reply to: Annee
No I was not speaking about a time when minorities kept their mouths shut, because they had not legal recourse. Though I can safely say that I too understand the nature of that persecution, have felt the pains of being denied a right or a privilege that others may enjoy, while all along having to withhold myself for fear of losing my job, or a place to live. I also can attest to the fact that I have seen what persecution does to a person who lived under those conditions, the mindset they hold fully, and how shocking it is to view first hand.

And while it may seem that it is wrong to force children to participate in a yearly pageant, or anyone, but then again, such is life, there are things well all must participate in, that we do not want to do. And it is due to one group having dominance over another, and that is a part of being an adult. I too have experience that as well, all cause I was not married and had no children, but told I had to work to cover another person’s job, because that person had a family and it would not be right for them to miss out on such. I bit my tongue then, even though it was clearly a case of discrimination, and it happened all of the time to me.

But as my mother would tell me, I was not promised a rose garden that life is hard, and ultimately it is what you make of it. While some people may say we should remove all reference to religion from our lives, it is a mistake and would be one that would do far greater harm than any good.

Consider this, if you do not believe in any religion, they why do you reap the benefits for all of those years from those who celebrate such? After all those quaint religious holidays, the ones where people have to work, while it may stink, most companies who are open, tend to pay a bit more for the inconvenience to their employees to go and work on said holidays.

Should we remove all reference to religion, then ultimately the very thing that is claimed that Atheist’s are being persecuted, would now put them in a position where they themselves are now the oppressors, and those who are religious become the persecuted.

The lessons of the past should be the guidance of the future, yet people do not tend to follow such. Take Thurgood Marshall, as you did bring up the civil rights era. Before he became a Supreme Court Justice, he was a lawyer, and one that worked for civil rights in that time frame before being appointed to the bench.

He fought every day of his life, but the wisdom here was that he picked his battles and chose the court cases, that he took. He knew how to work his way through the courts, instead of taking on major issues, and forcing change, he was taking it one step at a time. Some thought he was fighting a losing battle, but more times than not, he was able to win, but finding points and being very careful in what he argued for and about.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
African Americans, cannot change who they are, cannot hide in plain sight.
Gay people are born the way that they are.

But when it comes to religion, the very ideology, that is a choice. Someone who is say Catholic, can become a Baptist, or a Methodist.
An African American cannot become white or Chinese so easily, nor can a gay person suddenly become straight.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if they can change these things or not. I believe in freedom of religion, and that means the freedom to choose one's religious beliefs. Period. So, the fact that race and sexual orientation cannot be changed, but religion can really doesn't matter to me.

In god we trust has been on the currency for years, since 1864.
And it has been in use in the National Anthem of the country, and in most songs about the United States of America.

People only ever sing the first verse of the Star-Spangled Banner, which doesn't mention God. It is a song written by a guy and adopted as our national anthem. The original lyrics should stand, IMO. We have the choice to sing it or not.

Most songs about the US having God in them is irrelevant. They aren't officially representative of the government.

Do you propose that the very songs used to sing of pride in the country now be changed?

Absolutely not. I have a choice whether or not to sing those songs, and I choose not to.

But "under God" was added to the pledge in 1954 and most kids in school recite that every say. IN SCHOOL. "under God" should be removed, IMO. Or else schools shouldn't sponsor the reciting of it. But I also can choose not to say the pledge, so it's not keeping me up at night, either.

"In God We Trust" was adopted as our official motto in 1956. It should be changed to "E pluribus unum", IMO. And I'm not worried over the coins, either, though I would prefer it be replaced with E pluribus unum. I'm not holding my breath.

What I would actually like to see is various beliefs represented equally. I think that's the way it was meant to be, but Christianity seems to have exclusive rights to public and governmental displays and forget about anyone else, as if they're not as acceptable as Christianity.

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

After reading your excellent post, a question came to mind. "What is persecution?" If someone makes a rude remark to you, are you being persecuted? If some one writes they don't like the group you belong to, is that being persecuted? If some one is met by someone who falls short of God's love, is that persecution?

If a jerk of a boss fires you for some irrelevant characteristic, are you being persecuted? If a restaurant in town refuses to serve you, are you being persecuted? If a symbol of a group that you don't like is visible through the town, are you being persecuted?

The answer to all of these is "no." I understand why people want to claim they are being persecuted. think of the moral heights they can claim. They must be compensated because they are the victims of persecution. The groups they don't like are as bad as the Nazis, because the Nazis persecuted their victims.

In short, from the headline on, we're talking about an emotional word used to create guilt when there is no definition. The "victim" can claim anything he wants is "persecution." Clear that up, and we'll have something we can talk about.

originally posted by: charles1952
It has led to persecution. Of the Christians. Mild, to be sure, but it's there and increasing.

Oh, PLEASE! Just because Christians can no longer wear the "We're Number One" foam hand doesn't' mean they're being persecuted! LOL Extricating Christianity out of the government is NOT persecution!

Persecution: the subjecting of a race or group of people to unfair treatment.

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

I absolutely loved your post!

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
Ofcourse the religious are going to persecute you.
No more than they do each other, so I don't see why everybody is shocked.

^^ Seriously truthful statement.

I was stuck living in Alabama for almost a whole decade. The big church going people down there would all come knocking door to door ... different nights of the week. Baptists on Wednesday. Church of Christ on Thursday. Something else Tuesday. etc etc. Week after week .. month after month .. year after year. After hearing a knock and opening the door, whoever was on the other side that day would say 'I am ____ from ____ .. which church do you go to?" I swear .. every time .. always the 'which church do you go to' came out first thing.

We'd say 'why' and they'd go into their speech about how they were the only right church and everyone else was hellbound. They all hated each other.

After a while we went and got some CATHOLIC pamphlets (they all hated Catholics) of our own and started handing them out when we opened the door. We'd do a quick ... 'we don't have time to talk, here's a pamphlet' and close the door. Eventually they left us alone. I'd see them park their cars in the neighborhood and so I'd sneak out and put our pamphlets under their windshield wipers when they weren't around. bwahahahahaaaa

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

This is simple. Do you believe that your response to my post was a fair and accurate representation of the main thrust of my post? I'd like to know where we're starting from.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: Bone75

I've seen this innumerable times on ATS. In fact, I've even seen self proclaimed Christians telling OTHER CHRISTIANS they are going to burn in hell, right here, on this very website.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
Then answer me this, at what point is it enough? How much and how far should this go? How many more points of history and tradition should be removed and no longer seen?

Many of the great speeches given, along with the documents that shaped and molded this country all had reference to God in them.

The Declaration of Independence, should we remove that from the public eye, as there is mention of such, or alter the revered document as to leave that bit out?
How about the Gettysburg Address, should we remove that point from history as it has the mention of religion in it and government blessing of such?
How about the end of World War II, when McArthur accepted the surrender of the Japanese on the USS Missouri?
Or how about the Inaugural addresses of the past presidents?

And would you thus alter the supreme law of the land, all cause it mentions god in it?

Or how about some of the great works of art and music, along with literature, do they get banned cause they mention or allude to God in them?
Or the great monuments of our past, should we thus remove or get rid of them?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: ColeYounger
STFU and get a hobby, you sniveling toadie.

I remember a thread of yours called: "Calling all atheists" or something like that, in which you ranted and raved against atheists, and it was AT LEAST as bad as this guy's rant... So, I'm going to toss the above suggestion back in your face so you can see the hypocrisy of your sentiment.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wow...what a blow to my pride.
To compare me to the idiot in that video is ridiculous. If I was overly sensitive I might be offended.
I simply pointed out in my thread that it's foolish for athesits to think that not believing in a creator or intelligent designer somehow makes them scientific or logical. (When in fact, Einstein, Pascal, Planck, Mendel,Newton...just to name few, believed in a God, a supreme intelligence.)

There is no hypocrisy in my sentiment. Hypocrisy, by definition, means behavior that does not agree with what one claims to believe or feel.