Ray Hagins PhD - The Council That Created Jesus Christ (lecture)

reply to post by windword

Isis the powerful, protectress of her brother, who sought him tirelessly,

who traversed this land in mourning and did not rest until she found him;

who gave him shade with her feathers and air with her wings;

who cried out, the mourning woman of her brother

who summoned dancers for the Weary of Heart;
who took in his seed and created the heir,

who suckled the child in solitude, no one knew where,

who brought him, when his arm was strong,

into the hall of Geb -- the Ennead rejoiced:
"Welcome, Osiris' son, Horus, stout of heart, justified, son of Isis, heir of Osiris."
(The Hymn to Osiris)

Like I said, she reconstructed Osiris' body and had sex with it. Whether Osiris is a god or not isn't really of consequence -- she still had sex with him. Hardly the behaviour of a virgin.

reply to post by adjensen


Osirus was a GOD who impregnated Isis. And, a GOD penetrated and impregnated Mary. SO, same/same.

Both Isis and, supposedly, Mary were penetrated by a GOD. Neither Isis or Mary were impregnated by a human, therefore, they both were virgins of human penetration, who gave birth to saviors.

reply to post by windword

And, a GOD penetrated and impregnated Mary.

That isn't what Scripture says about Mary.

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 1:18 NIV)

The Holy Spirit is never claimed to be a physical person -- Mary was impregnated via supernatural means, not penis in vagina sex, as was the case with Iris and Osiris, regardless of the divinity of Osiris' corpse.

You're inadvertently making a good example of the lengths that these Christ Mythicists go to in order to make their rather weak case look a little more solid.

reply to post by adjensen


First of all, the virgin birth IS a myth. Secondly, Mary had to have been penetrated to have become pregnant. Someone, or something, put a fertilized egg inside her womb. Perhaps she was raped in a drug induced sleep. Whatever, she was no longer a "virgin" after becoming impregnated, albeit, mythology has it that she was penetrated by a GOD not by a man.

It's the mirrored mythology, as above so below, of Osiris, Isis and Horus. Jesus, supposedly, is his own father and his own son, just like Osiris and Horus.

AnAbsoluteCreation
First off I am not a believer of the standard way of thinking about religion.

That said, this guy is dangerous. He first of all is making a huge mistake by pretending that all that has been done has been done to keep the black man down. The concepts he references were meant to keep humanity down. Dangerous mischaracterization.

I could only watch 10 minutes of it because of the heavy amounts of indoctrination he is spraying on his audience. He is galvanizing their brainwashing by undermining their intelligences.

This guy reminds me of the old KKK members rise to power.

"I'm just saying I want you to feel proud when you wake up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror. That's all!"

He uses truth to disguise his hate.

Edit to add: iPad typing sooks.

AAC

edit on 24-2-2014 by AnAbsoluteCreation because: (no reason given)

I watched till the end...and I agree here...there is truth in there, but the presentation is over the top. The guy leaves the impression of a hidden psychopath. Too many racial overtones...you better not let this guy lead a mob.

reply to post by windword


You do understand the whole "omnipotence thing", right?

No, the Christian claim is not that God penetrated Mary and impregnated her, but that she was supernaturally made pregnant by God, and remained a virgin, not because she hadn't had penis in vagina sex with a man, but that she had not had penis in vagina sex at all.

I recognize that you don't believe that, but you don't validate the Christ Mythicists claims by insisting that your opinion is the right one and all Christians need to agree with you in order to make your case.

Jesus was born of a virgin, Horus was not.

reply to post by windword

First of all, the virgin birth IS a myth. Secondly, Mary had to have been penetrated to have become pregnant.

Did god have sex to make Adam? Or did he make him out of dust

You either accept a supernatural being has supernatural powers or you don't I guess. If you accept Moses split an ocean in two, why not god impregnating Mary supernaturally? To me it seems someone should believe the whole of it or dismiss all of it [as it pertains to the miracles].

Personally I think Mary wasn't a virgin and had sex with a man.

reply to post by adjensen

and remained a virgin

Remained a virgin? Did god impregnate the others through holy spirit?

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.

Luke 8:19-21
Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.
Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”
He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”

John 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.

Seems to suggest he had siblings according to scripture. What am I misunderstanding here?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Seems to suggest he had siblings according to scripture. What am I misunderstanding here?

Well, in that context, I meant that she remained a virgin through that pregnancy, but the Catholic and Orthodox views are that she remained a virgin all of her life. I'm not particularly hung up on it, since I'm a Protestant-leaning Catholic, but the argument from their perspective is that "brothers" in those passages refers either to previous sons of Joseph by an earlier wife, or in the context of that culture, "brother" could refer to cousins or even close friends.

The clincher is the scene at the crucifixion, where Jesus gives responsibility for his mother to the Apostle John -- if Joseph or another son of Mary existed, that would be a very inappropriate thing to do.

But, like I said, not really a big deal for me.

reply to post by adjensen

but the Catholic and Orthodox views are that she remained a virgin all of her life. I'm not particularly hung up on it, since I'm a Protestant-leaning Catholic, but the argument from their perspective is that "brothers" in those passages refers either to previous sons of Joseph by an earlier wife, or in the context of that culture, "brother" could refer to cousins or even close friends.

From what I am reading at the moment the word used [contextually] could refer to cousins but could always refer to biological brothers. Anyways I was just curious what you meant by remained a virgin. Thanks for the clarification.

An off topic question if you don't mind. I am working on a thread about 'hell'. Would you place your belief in universal reconciliation, annihilationism, or the more orthodox eternal punishment?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

An off topic question if you don't mind. I am working on a thread about 'hell'. Would you place your belief in universal reconciliation, annihilationism, or the more orthodox eternal punishment?

Hell has never been a big part of my theology, so I don't really hold a strong position on it. Personally (and this is not a Catholic perspective,) I hope for universal salvation, but I don't promote it, because it's a dangerous thing to sell if it's not right. In the end, I think that reconciling with God is more about doing his Will than it is related to a person's beliefs, and I think that everyone -- Christians, Muslims, atheists, everyone -- can do God's Will, whether they know it or not, and I believe that comes into play.

As with many other Christians, I view Hell as being separated from God with the full understanding of what that means. External physical punishment -- demons pushing hot pokers up one's backside eternally and the like -- seems decidedly unChristlike (not to mention somewhat rewarding for the demons.) But it is what it is, so we'll see.

reply to post by adjensen


the only thing about Jesus Christ that been proven to exist for sure is the English name Jesus Christ
i thought everything thing in the bible was supposed to be divinely inspired weird of god
and they mention Jesus Christ all through that bible
so what you are saying is the bible that mentions Jesus Christ isn't divinely inspired
which ...is what i am saying

Danbones
reply to post by adjensen

 

the only thing about Jesus Christ that been proven to exist for sure is the English name Jesus Christ
i though everything thing in the bible was supposed to be divinely inspired wierd of god
and they mention Jesus Christ all through that bible
so what you are saying is the bible that mentions jesus christ isn't divinely inspired
which ...is what i am saying

uhm....what?

reply to post by DeadSeraph


show me the bones

There is a lot of information here about the creation of Christianity, including aspects decided at the First Council of Nicea.

www.columbia.edu...

www.examiner.com...

For example, the Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" (Hwn.t wr.t) three times, at 682c, 728a and 2002a, while in a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: "I am the great virgin."

encyclobooks.com...

Dr. Barlow says:

"The doctrine of the Mother of God was of Egyptian origin. It was brought in along with the worship of the Madonna by Cyril (Bishop of Alexandria, and the Cyril of Hypatia) and the monks of Alexandria, in the fifth century. The earliest representations of the Madonna have quite a Greco-Egyptian character, and there can be little doubt that Isis nursing Horus was the origin of them all."

And Arthur Murphy tells us that:

"The superstition and religious ceremonies of the Egyptians were diffused over Asia, Greece, and the rest of Europe. Brotier says, that inscriptions of Isis and Serapis (Horus?) have been frequently found in Germany. . . . The missionaries who went in the eighth and ninth centuries to propagate the Christian religion in those parts, saw many images and statues of these gods."

These "many images and statues of these gods" were evidently baptized anew, given other names, and allowed to remain where they were.

In many parts of Italy are to be seen pictures of the Virgin with her infant in her arms, inscribed with the words: "Deo Soli." This betrays their Pagan origin.

Danbones
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

show me the bones

If Christians are right, that is sort of hard to do, since He ascended. If Christians are wrong, and he didn't ascend, that is still a pretty poor argument for claiming Jesus never existed. It's like saying Alexander the Great never existed because we haven't been able to locate his remains. There are plenty of figures in history who are acknowledged as having existed despite the lack of their remains (or even a tomb or grave for them), based on nothing more than writings during or even hundreds of years after they lived.

adjensen
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

In the end, I think that reconciling with God is more about doing his Will than it is related to a person's beliefs, and I think that everyone -- Christians, Muslims, atheists, everyone -- can do God's Will, whether they know it or not, and I believe that comes into play.

That sums it up.

It doesn't matter about all the ceremony and magic. Strip that away, and it boils down to doing what is in your heart. Because the knowledge of "good and evil" is ingrained in all of us.

adjensen
reply to post by UnBreakable

 

Both born of a virgin, walked on water, crucified, rose from the dead - to name a few.

Thank you for a shining example of why I drafted that thread on the Christ Mythicists, I guess I really should finish it up.

No, Horus wasn't born of a virgin -- Osiris, the father of Horus, was killed and chopped up into bits by Seth, who scattered the bits around Egypt. Isis, sister/wife of Osiris, gathered the pieces, put him back together, had sex with the remains and conceived Horus, who went on to avenge his father's death. Does that sound like he was born of a virgin?

No, Horus wasn't crucified -- there is only one Egyptian text that says he died, The Legend of the Death of Horus, but in that text, he died from a scorpion bite, not crucifixion.

I've never heard that Horus walked on water, but I'm guessing it's as wrong as the other two.

The injustice in this isn't the attempt to refute Christianity, which can stand up to it, but the intentional perversion of another peoples' stories in making that effort. Horus and his legends meant something to people, people who didn't believe that he was born of a virgin or crucified, because he wasn't.

I'll defer to your vast knowledge since you must've existed thousands of years ago and know such great detail, no doubt as witness to both the Horus and Jesus myths. By "myth", I'm not denying either one existed, but the supernatural, divine attributes of both. Stories of each were written decades to hundreds of years after they died. So tell me, how many children did Jesus have with Mary Magdelene? Was it 2 or 3? And where did the apostles hide the body after it was discovered JC didn't rise from the dead after three days? They had to some way perpetuate that myth.

Oh, and by the way, my source says Horus was crucified.

"Horus was also crucified in the heavens. He was represented, like...Christ Jesus, with outstretched arms in the vault of heaven."

www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

reply to post by UnBreakable

I'll defer to your vast knowledge since you must've existed thousands of years ago and know such great detail, no doubt as witness to both the Horus and Jesus myths.

I cited the texts of the Egyptians who worshipped Horus to dispute your claims -- are you saying that you know their gods better than they do? Seriously, find me some religious Egyptian texts from 2,500 years ago that clearly state that Horus was born of a virgin, walked on water and was crucified. 'Cause I'd sure like to see them.

Oh, and by the way, my source says Horus was crucified.

Your "source" is D.M. Murdoch, who is not accepted as a credible source, even by people who generally agree with her.

reply to post by Danbones

the only thing about Jesus Christ that been proven to exist for sure is the English name Jesus Christ

I suppose it depends on what one means by proof. There is evidence this Jesus existed from historical records. Here is a quote from the first century Roman historian Flavius Josephus that was mentioned prior in the thread:

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

…and another

"…he had brought before them the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, who was called James, and some other men, whom he accused of having broken the law, and handed them over to be stoned."

Pliny the Younger:

“They [the Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

Suetonius:

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ? I read mixed thoughts here], he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).”