Ray Hagins PhD - The Council That Created Jesus Christ (lecture)

reply to post by adjensen

1) I asked you for an ancient Egyptian source that calls Isis the "Great Virgin".
2) I asked you how learning the mysteries of the universe means having sex.

Here ya go. According to the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, at the Abydos Temple of Seti, Isis claims that she is "The Great Virgin" Ptolemaic text require that women acting, for ritual purposes, on behalf of Hathor, Isis or Nephthys must be virgins.

adjensen
reply to post by Eniii

 

What is this guy's PhD in? 'Cause it sure isn't history, lol.

There is a reason that the existence of a person in the First Century named Jesus who began a new sect of Judaism, call Christianity, is almost universally accepted --and that is because there is something called historical evidence.

You can start with the Surviving Documents from the Council of Nicaea and work your way back from there.

ETA: Oh, here he is: Black Liberation Network

(Dr. Hagins) holds a doctorate (C.C.D.) in counseling and a Ph.D. with an emphasis in Cognitive Psychology

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my history from historians, not counselors.

ETA2: Okay, I can get past him not knowing how to pronounce Ptolomy and for not knowing what the Greek word "Christus" means, but the "Son/Sun" argument? THE BIBLE WASN'T WRITTEN IN ENGLISH, YOU IDIOT!!!

lol

edit on 24-2-2014 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

His PhD is most likely a diploma mill bought off the internet for $39.95

IMPORTANT

youtube

At the 1hr 20min mark this guy says something that I think is actually criminal?

For the next 3 minutes he talks about how he is not condoning violence but says remove the heads of your enemies, he then says he was robbed and some people he knows took care of the guy and removed his hands!!

So he is aware of the people that did this, did this violent act get reported to the police?

To be honest the reason I was watching this video was because of the one the OP posted and I found this guy to be fairly interesting in his views, its always interesting to see peoples points of view. However I think he steps in to a dangerous place at the 1hr 20min mark and condones violence in a scary way.

Thoughts?

reply to post by windword


Thanks for finding that. I guess that we can conclude that some ancient Egyptians thought that Isis was a virgin, and some thought that she had sexual intercourse with Osiris' corpse (I presume that we can agree that Isis did not exist and did not actually declare herself "the Great Virgin".)

But, once again, I stand by my claim that Isis' virginity is of no consequence for Egyptian theology, while Mary's virginity is significant for Christianity, so it is highly unlikely that the writers of the Gospel simply "copied" any claims of Isis' virginity and applied them to Mary -- there is no evidence that they even would have known about such, and absolutely no reason for them to have done so.

reply to post by adjensen


I am not proclaiming that Mary is based on Isis.

but it is important to note that the story of Jesus had to have the "chops" to pass muster among the people who were being targeted for conversion (the intended audience of the marketing pamphlets that became our bible). To be of a virgin birth is just another checkmark in legitimizing Jesus as a god on earth. Akin to the symbolic importance of riding into jerusalem via the east gate.

reply to post by adjensen

Thanks for finding that. I guess that we can conclude that some ancient Egyptians thought that Isis was a virgin, and some thought that she had sexual intercourse with Osiris' corpse.

Your welcome.

No. I don't agree with that. I think it was common knowledge and widely accepted that Isis was a virgin goddess. There is no ancient Egyptian text, that I know of, nor pictorial inscription of of Isis, the woman, having sex with a contrived phallus. The conception of Horus took place with Isis hovering over Osiris as a bird, a hawk. There was no sexual intercourse, between a man and woman, or a man and a bird, in the conception of Horus. It was magic, magic that was orchestrated and overseen by the God Thoth.

(I presume that we can agree that Isis did not exist and did not actually declare herself "the Great Virgin".)

I don't know. The character of Isis may have been based off a real prediluvia queen. But the essence of the mother goddess, the feminine principle of the holy trinity is a spiritual truth. That essence has never incarnated in one person who lived and walked on earth, among the living, just as the essence of "God" never incarnated into one flesh and blood body and lived and died on earth, in my opinion.

But, once again, I stand by my claim that Isis' virginity is of no consequence for Egyptian theology, while Mary's virginity is significant for Christianity, so it is highly unlikely that the writers of the Gospel simply "copied" any claims of Isis' virginity and applied them to Mary -- there is no evidence that they even would have known about such, and absolutely no reason for them to have done so.

Why wouldn't the writers of the Gospel know about Egyptian mythology? Didn't the holy family supposedly "hide out" in Egypt?

The similarities between the Osiris, Horus Isis mythology and the Christian theme of Jesus and the issues surrounding his virgin birth can't be dismissed.

"The miraculous birth of Jesus could be viewed as analogous to that of Horus, whom Isis conceived posthumously from Osiris, and Mary was closely connected with Isis by many other shared characteristics."

- Dr. Erik Hornung, The Secret Lore of Egypt, 75

"The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."

- Dr. R.E. Witt, Isis in the Ancient World, 273

"...the resemblances between Isis and the Virgin Mary are far too close and numerous to be accidental. There can, in fact, be no question that the Isiac cult was a profound influence on other religions, not least Christianity ... [Isis] was the sacred embodiment of motherhood, yet was known as the Great Virgin, an apparent contradiction that will be familiar to Christians."

- Dr. James Curl, The Egyptian Revival, 12-13

reply to post by windword

There is no ancient Egyptian text, that I know of, nor pictorial inscription of of Isis, the woman, having sex with a contrived phallus.

Oh, come on. I cited the Egyptian text, way back when, that says that Isis collected the pieces of Osiris, reassembled him, and copulated with the corpse to produce Horus. In the picture that I posted, it has Isis, in the form of a bird, hovering over the phallus of Osiris, clearly copulating with him, in order to produce Horus.

Give it a rest. Some, probably not all Egyptians believed that Iris had sex with Osiris. If you continue in your belligerent argument against that position, I'm done with this thread.

So I guess nobody cares about my post above? And this guys murderous actions?

There are just do many blatant untruths in this video. At just past 34 minutes, he says “There was one God.  ‘He ain’t got no son’....That was Arius’ argument.”

Yet nearly every letter from Arias mentions "He begat a Son"....

I just cannot overlook that this man preaches based upon human emotion, and appeals to pride....which blinds people to truth. The above example is small, but is so easily proven as an untruth -

reply to post by gazzerman


YouTube is full of nuts like this guy… if you think that there is something criminal being attested to in the video, report it to YouTube.


Tragically, as noted in the screenshot, in the case of VonHelton videos, there is no "This video is an insult to intelligence" option, lol.

reply to post by gazzerman


Not really.

If someone robs me, there'll be a funeral procession in my town too.

reply to post by adjensen

Give it a rest. Some, probably not all Egyptians believed that Iris had sex with Osiris. If you continue in your belligerent argument against that position, I'm done with this thread.

Can you admit that "Some, probably not all" Christians believed that Mary had sex to conceive Jesus?

I can take no responsibility for your perception of me, as I harbor no hostility or aggression toward you or your position, and I'm truly sorry if I gave you that impression. I'm merely arguing against your evidence, by tediously presenting my own. If you feel so intimated by this discussion, that you feel you need to leave the thread, I'll understand. But I won't acquiesce to a concept that I believe to be false.

I might also remind you, that YOU are the one who first brought up Horus and the claim the Isis was not a virgin. Had you not made that assertion, in this POST in this thread, I would not have challenged you.

Me
There is no ancient Egyptian text, that I know of, nor pictorial inscription of of Isis, the woman, having sex with a contrived phallus.

Adjenson
Oh, come on. I cited the Egyptian text, way back when, that says that Isis collected the pieces of Osiris, reassembled him, and copulated with the corpse to produce Horus. In the picture that I posted, it has Isis, in the form of a bird, hovering over the phallus of Osiris, clearly copulating with him, in order to produce Horus.

That is not how the story goes, according to the Pyramid Texts.

As for your picture, here is one of Isis, in the form of a bird, having sex with Osiris.

That picture/relief is pretty damaged, and I can see how you might think that looks like a phallus. Here's a better example the image of the Conception of Horus that archaeologists/scholars have presented.


PLATE XIV.
The Procreation of Horus, son of Isis.

Details of the engagement are wanting, but the Pyramid Texts state that the body of Osiris was hurled to the ground by Set at a place called Netat, which seems to have been near Abydos.

1 The news of the death of Osiris was brought to Isis, and she at once set out to find his body. All legends agree in saying that she took the form of a bird, and that she flew about unceasingly, going hither and thither, and uttering wailing cries of grief. At length she found the body, and with a piercing cry she alighted on the ground. The Pyramid Texts say that Nephthys was with her that "Isis came, Nephthys came, the one on the right side, the other on the left side, one in the form of a Hat bird, the other in the form of a Tchert bird, and they found Osiris thrown on the ground in Netat by

p. l

his brother Set." The late form of the legend goes on to say that Isis fanned the body with her feathers, and produced air, and that at length she caused the inert members of Osiris to move, and drew from him his essence, wherefrom she produced her child Horus.
www.sacred-texts.com...

There was no dismemberment, there was no regathering and reassembling of the body, there was no fake phallus. There is no coitus, no copulation. The essence of Osiris, through Thoth's magic, entered Isis to be reborn as Horus. Horus was not a genetic child produced through chromasonal donation.

If you can provide the ancient Egyptian text of Isis reassembling Osiris's body and created a prosthetic phallus, in order to conceive, I would be happy to admit that there are at least two ancient Egyptian versions. But as it is, the story just isn't in any of the Pyramid Texts, that I can find. And, I have looked! It appears, to me anyway, that this story is later oral adaptation to the Osiris/Isis/Horus saga.

reply to post by windword

Can you admit that "Some, probably not all" Christians believed that Mary had sex to conceive Jesus?

People believe all sorts of things, correct or not. Saying that Mary had sex with a man to conceive Jesus would be heretical, and an indication that the person does not hold Christian beliefs. So the answer is "no", Christians did not believe that Jesus was just a man, because that belief would make them something other than a Christian.

That picture/relief is pretty damaged, and I can see how you might think that looks like a phallus.

For at least the third time, it is not my opinion, it is the stated opinion of Egyptologists -- the picture came from a book, Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods, by Dimitri Meeks and Christine Favard-Meeks. Meeks was a research director for the French National Centre for Scientific Research, with a specialization in Egyptology.

From your quoted text:

at length she caused the inert members of Osiris to move, and drew from him his essence, wherefrom she produced her child Horus

That sure sounds like sex to me.

There was no dismemberment, there was no regathering and reassembling of the body, there was no fake phallus.

Perhaps in that version, though it doesn't say that there was none, it just doesn't say that there was. But it says different things in different legends:

One night, whilst Mighty Isis slept, Seth happened upon the Dead King. In a fury, He tore the body of Osiris into fourteen pieces and scattered them throughout Egypt to ensure they would not all be found.

When Isis found the empty coffin, Her cries reached unto the heavens; even unto the ears of Her beloved Nephthys. She came to Isis' side, and the two sisters searched the land for the scattered body of Osiris. For many sad years the Daughters of Nuit wandered through Egypt. Everywhere They found a fragment They built a shrine. At last, all the pieces were gathered; with the exception of the God's phallus. Isis reassembled Osiris' body, and fashioned a phallus of pure gold to replace the lost member. She wrapped the body in cloth and perfumed it with many scents. Thus was Osiris whole again, and mummification was created.

Isis then transformed Herself into the form of a swallow, and with Her wings She fanned the Breath of Life into Her husband. The Lord of Eternity arose, restored to life at last. But it was only to last for the length of one night, so that He and Isis could conceive their Divine Son Horus. (Source)

I see that version of the conception of Horus far more often than the one you keep citing, so I don't know how you manage to keep overlooking it.

reply to post by adjensen


I have proven, with irrefutable evidence, time and time again, that Isis was "The Great Virgin" by proclamation. It's not a matter of opinion.

An unsubstantiated narrative isn't going to cut it. Again, I ask you cite the authentic ancient Egyptian texts that corresponds to the narrative in the link you have cited. I am aware of the oral narrative of the myth of the "golden phallus", or a "wooden phallus", but I can't find any authentic ancient Egyptian text or hieroglyphs that support that version of the conception of Horus.

My citations are from translations and commentaries on passages from Hymn to Osiris taken from The Egyptian Book of the Dead , as well as the translations of the glyphs from and pictures from the Temple of Seti and Pyramid texts.

Thy sister protected thee, and she drove away thy foes, 14. and she warded off from thee evil hap, and uttered the words of power with all the skill of her mouth; her tongue was trained, and she committed no fault of utterance, and she made [her decree and [her words to have effect, Isis, the mighty one, the avenger of her brother. She sought thee without weariness, 15. she went round about through this land in sorrow, and she set not to the ground her foot until she had found thee. She made light with her feathers, she made air to come into being with her wings, and she uttered cries of lamentation at the bier of her brother. 16. She stirred up from his state of inactivity him whose heart was still (i.e., Osiris), she drew from him his seed, she made an heir, she suckled the babe in solitariness, and the place wherein she reared him is unknown, and his hand is mighty within the house 17. of Seb.
The Hymn to Osirus
Read more: www.touregypt.net...

There is nothing in this text to suggest that Isis reassembled a disembodied Osiris, let alone needed a prosthetic phallus to get the job done!

Although, I don't think using a "dildo" qualifies as actual sexual intercourse, I'll just close by saying, unless you can provide authentic ancient Egyptian textual and/or pictorial evidence of Isis reassembling the body of Osiris and fashioning and utilizing a fake phallus, in order to conceive Horus, and not just some guy who says so, I'll consider this discussion over, and the fact of the tradition of Isis, "The Great Virgin" stands.

Obviously the moron in this video is motivated by racial resentment. He couldn't care less about any historical or spiritual truths. Does he really deserve this much attention?

It is surprising that ancient Egyptian theology has become the focus of this thread. To me, the most valid rebuttal to this nutjob's rant would be to contrast the evidenced life of Jesus of Nazareth with the questionable existence of a certain guy named Mohammed.

reply to post by OpenMindedRealist


You are more than welcome to refute the evidence I've provided!

reply to post by adjensen

But if, like the Christ Mythicists, you want to claim that the authors of the Gospels knew of the Egyptian legends of Isis

Why wouldn't they know about Egyptian mythology? Greek/Roman people already had established history with Egypt. Here is an example that falls right smack on the timeline of Jesus and when the Gospels were said to be written: Aegyptus, province of the Roman Empire. I think it's pretty reasonable their mythology would have spread.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

If I may inquire...if half the bible was plagiarized, how can you trust the rest of it?

Are you referring to the evidence I presented for Historical Jesus? Those were not biblical. They were historians. Let me know if I misunderstood.