The United States Is the Chief Facilitator of Christian Persecution

Monday, Sep 19, 2011
How Obama’s destabilizing the world
American troops are on the ground in an increasing number of volatile countries -- and they're making things worse
www.salon.com...

Please read this article in light of to days situations.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Yes it is. Like I said, Muslim persecution is on the rise in those countries too. The Shiite/Sunni conflict is raging as hard as ever. This is all the result of a power vacuum and the ensuing groups vying for power only want their world view to be dominant. Pretending like this is some Christian only problem is dumb and dishonest. The fact of the matter is that if you live in one of those countries, you are likely to persecuted against regardless of what your beliefs are, because they will inevitably conflict with someone else's beliefs who is willing to be violent to uphold them.

And yes the insinuation that the United States (a supposedly Christian nation according to all the Christians here) is destabilizing these countries in order to facilitate the persecution of Christians is just downright silly.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Thanks, and yeah that poem there is spot on. (Awesome, too)

Consider
Is Saudi Arabia heading East?
and the Saudi-Israeli alliance

www.arabnews.com...

oopsy

Obama Is Said to Plan Fence-Mending Trip to Saudi Arabia
www.nytimes.com...

things should go quickly down hill after this.

Mr. Obama, the official said, will seek to reassure the king of American support after a tense period in which the Saudis and other Persian Gulf allies of the United States have grown increasingly frustrated with American policies toward Iran and Syria.

02/11/2014
Iran claims to have tested new missiles
www.rappler.com...

Iran sends warships close to US borders
www.sfltimes.com...
Monday, 10 February 2014


Strange times we live in.

"India, in spite of its long tradition for religious tolerance, finds itself in the throes of religious fundamentalism and violence against religious minorities for the past few decades. Reports by faith-based rights agencies show that Christians in India have suffered about 150 violent attacks on an average in the past few years," argued ADF attorney Tehmina Arora before the Subcommittee on Africa, Global Health, Global Human Rights and International Organizations.

"These attacks include physical and sexual assaults, murder and desecration of places of worship and graveyards."

Arora listed several examples of Christians being violently attacked by Hindu extremist groups, but the full extent of the persecution is revealed when taking into account the lack of police action on such crimes.

www.christianpost.com...

reply to post by Stormdancer777


150 attacks within the last few years? So something like ~50 attacks a year? With a population of about 1.2 billion people that really doesn't sound like much of a problem. Mountain out of a molehill. Even if I misread that and it is 150 attacks a year, that is still an insignificant figure.

Krazysh0t
Yes it is. Like I said, Muslim persecution is on the rise in those countries too. The Shiite/Sunni conflict is raging as hard as ever. This is all the result of a power vacuum and the ensuing groups vying for power only want their world view to be dominant. Pretending like this is some Christian only problem is dumb and dishonest. The fact of the matter is that if you live in one of those countries, you are likely to persecuted against regardless of what your beliefs are, because they will inevitably conflict with someone else's beliefs who is willing to be violent to uphold them.

Actually, that's why I mentioned Muslim factions, myself.

And yes the insinuation that the United States (a supposedly Christian nation according to all the Christians here) is destabilizing these countries in order to facilitate the persecution of Christians is just downright silly.

It's a Christian enough nation. The overwhelming majority of founding fathers and most generations up until the 50s labelled themselves as Christian.

Thing is that there are things in the Bible that can force our stances to be very peculiar, frankly, even legalistic.

Watch:

1 Cor. 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually , I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges . Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

Because of this passage and others like it, many Christians have formed various conclusions that all basically boil down to:
1. Outsider business is not out business.
2. Insider business is what we need to focus on.

When it comes to something like this, what we're usually predominantly focused on who is claiming Christianity because our "judgements" are only really useful on dealing with one of us. If anything other than a self-proclaimed Christian is in office, then it's about what we'd expect out of humanity. (No, we haven't left humanity, more like we expect an attempt to fight against a darker inner nature from our own--although the track record shows we're just about as fallible.) If they're claiming Christianity, there are some steps that can be taken, within their particular end of the faith--some Biblical, some merely Church Tradition. (Prime example is Catholic diocese refusing to give communion to politicians who choose to vote pro-choice.)

Now as far as "outsiders claiming insidership without actually being insiders":

Matthew 13:24-30
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28"And he said to them, `An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, `Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' 29"But he said, `No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30`Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

Again, one of many texts about what the Church actually is. And no, I'm not saying that this NEVER happens to other faiths, or any movement for that matter.

Someone always steps in with the intent to destroy all the good that any given movement is attempting to achieve. Nothing new.

In particular, when Christianity has had enough of the perversion of their faith, there is a tendency towards reform. (An example is Martin Luther and his issues with the "indulgences". Early protestants come from similar issues. The Restoration Movement was a peaceful unification until the civil war messed it up.) It's just getting harder with the major ton of misinformation that is being shifted all over the place. to find a way of being the flavour in the coffee, the salt on the eggs, ect.

But this is not something that most people outside the faith study up on, to see why there was such a backlash. Nor do they really want to see us make an attempt NOW to reset the course without answering for things we've already reformed. (This is why it's funny when the Crusades are brought up all the time. The crusades were put to rest a long time ago--although the modern mess does look like an attempt to rekindle it.)

Now as far as destabilising other groups, no we've got no business doing that in the first place. What's frustrating for us is that Christ's "deathbed prayer" for His people was for us to be ONE, and such machinations are making it very hard to find unity.

And we're failing at it miserably.

reply to post by CynicalDrivel


I'm not really sure what you are getting at with this post. Are you trying to explain to me Christian thought process and why they do things? You do realize that by doing this, you've made an assumption about me, that I am not nor ever was a Christian. Except that I was raised Catholic and am very familiar with church doctrine.

Also you mention people bringing up things the church has reformed, but what about things that they haven't reformed and are still pervasive in the church? Like pedophilia within the clergy, rampant misogyny, intolerance towards homosexuality, and judging people who aren't Christian to name a few.

Yes the U.S. is a predominantly Christian society, but if you think the owners of the country are Christian you are sadly mistaken. The idea that the U.S. is actively working to kill Christians isn't that far-fetched, considering they are actively working to strengthen radical Islam. And when you see the complete silence of the Washington establishment on the issue, and their anti-freedom stance in many other places (like Egypt), no agenda is too outlandish to put past them.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The only faith I have is in the scientists who aid us in investigating this reality, the ones who don't depend on faith.

Therefore, those scientists ARE your Gods, and you're just as religious as anyone else might be.

See ya,
Milt

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OMsk3ptic
Yes the U.S. is a predominantly Christian society, but if you think the owners of the country are Christian you are sadly mistaken. The idea that the U.S. is actively working to kill Christians isn't that far-fetched, considering they are actively working to strengthen radical Islam. And when you see the complete silence of the Washington establishment on the issue, and their anti-freedom stance in many other places (like Egypt), no agenda is too outlandish to put past them.

There is far more to it, but I am hesitant to go there.

Krazysh0t
I'm not really sure what you are getting at with this post. Are you trying to explain to me Christian thought process and why they do things? You do realize that by doing this, you've made an assumption about me, that I am not nor ever was a Christian. Except that I was raised Catholic and am very familiar with church doctrine.

As much for you and as for others who come behind, really. There's quite a lot of people in here that claim to know all about Christendom that get some of the most amazingly simple things a bit more than off kilter from the strangest places. It's worth putting it up, as I thought about it.

And actually, from living in a predominantly Catholic society, I'm more used to Catholics who couldn't quote me a single scripture, including: "Jesus Wept". I tend to call those Culture Catholics. Not looking forward to Mardi Gras, this year. Blocks off my place of employment.

Also you mention people bringing up things the church has reformed, but what about things that they haven't reformed and are still pervasive in the church? Like pedophilia within the clergy, rampant misogyny, intolerance towards homosexuality, and judging people who aren't Christian to name a few.

Actually, I have mentioned one of these in passing, too. The last one? I just excerpted scripture on that one directly. I am VERY much aware of how some of us treat outsiders--and often let insiders get away with anything because they're one of us. And some of the things elsewise mentioned, I could talk about, as well.

Frankly, I've got no problem with people bringing up the modern issues. Not like those are necessarily on topic for THIS thread, mind you. (But when does ANY of this b.s. ever stay on topic?)

And it wouldn't be uniform or even simple answers on any of the above-mentioned, either. After all, I'm not Catholic, so I have no say about what they do with their paedophiles. As my movement, in particular, is highly autonomous, I can't really answer for another congregation bearing the same ideology and name, really. Although I could call them out on their behaviour--or at the very least agree that the behaviour is atrocious when it's brought to my attention.

Now, the one thing that was directly intended solely for you was:

You:
And yes the insinuation that the United States (a supposedly Christian nation according to all the Christians here) is destabilizing these countries in order to facilitate the persecution of Christians is just downright silly.

I pointed out that there is such a thing as people who CLAIM Christianity with the sole intent to cause division and strife (which sometimes leads to murdering Christians, or members of other faiths).

If the main idea was merely to kill Christians, then yes, this idea would be daft as a bucket full of hair.

The real goal seems to be the same one that our politics have had for more than 20 years: it's about division. It's about causing different factions in VOTERS (many of whom are Christians), to inspire an us-vs.-them mentality which continues to keep people in power who have no business leading their left foot before their right--let alone a country!

The fact that it has touched upon Christianity gives the many Christians who do "separate church and state", who stay out of politics because it's an outsider problem, major reasons to wonder how long they're going to be able to keep out of this. And it's wearing on the nerves of those who voted for peace and found a liar at the end of that promise.

reply to post by CynicalDrivel


Has it occurred to you that this journalism of reporting the rise in Christian persecution is yellow journalism as well to incite Christians like the OP into getting outraged? I pointed out earlier when the OP mentioned the 150 or so Christians being persecuted in India that this is 150 cases out of 1.2 billion people. Sure if the number went from 150 to 160 from last year to this year, it would be an increase in persecution. But would it be significant?

You talk about non-Christians or ex-Christians who cannot cite scripture or don't know simple Christian doctrine, but for every ex-Christian you can point out who cannot do this, I can point out a Christian with the same failings. Many Christians in this country only go to church on Sunday, listen to their preacher for an hour then go home. They probably have a rudimentary knowledge of the various bible stories, but don't practice their teachings on a day to day basis. Yet these same people scream loudly that they are persecuted, marginalized, or that non-Christians are destroying society.

But hey I got to hand it to this thread, I haven't seen anyone come in yelling about Obama being a Muslim or anything (and frankly the thread content is screaming for that to happen) like it is a bad thing.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by CynicalDrivel

 

But hey I got to hand it to this thread, I haven't seen anyone come in yelling about Obama being a Muslim or anything (and frankly the thread content is screaming for that to happen) like it is a bad thing.

I think most people realize Obama is just a puppet, whether he is a Muslim bent on Christianity's destruction or not is irrelevant, he doesn't set the agenda. I highly doubt Obama is a Muslim though, more than likely he's like most of our presidents, a secret society stooge.

Krazysh0tHas it occurred to you that this journalism of reporting the rise in Christian persecution is yellow journalism as well to incite Christians like the OP into getting outraged? I pointed out earlier when the OP mentioned the 150 or so Christians being persecuted in India that this is 150 cases out of 1.2 billion people. Sure if the number went from 150 to 160 from last year to this year, it would be an increase in persecution. But would it be significant?

Minor disclaimer: Really, am more wondering at the possibility, than the probability on this one. Really just defending the the need to seriously look at this.

1. It also would depend on what types of persecutions, too. You have 500 beaten one year, and none beaten the next, but in that same period of time only 50 were murdered the 1st year and 500 were murdered the next? Persecution would drop by 50 people, but the severity of the persecution went up. And you'd better bet that both viewpoints would misuse the data to say what they want from it.

2. It also depends on how many Christians there were in those countries, to begin with, to be able to figure out if 150 is worth measuring. And I'm not talking about those who privately put in a survey that they're Christian. I mean, how many attend x building, publicly and prominently, and was there an increase of violence to overt Christians?

3. The strife in some of these countries isn't something that should be measured in year to year increments, but often by decades, or by their internal presidencies, ect. I'm not sure about how I'd want the data laid out for a true showing of trends, without looking at it in more detail.

4. I did point out earlier that many Christians feel their hands are tied when unrest increases in an outside country--even when our country is the instigator, until they have documentation of insider leadership causing the deaths of insiders abroad. For this, 1 Christian death is worth the question, even if there's been 1 million deaths at the hands of outsiders that cannot be linked to our insider-leader that magically stopped overnight.


But really, it does no good to yank only one group's chain, in an effort to prevent unity. Got to yank them both. So, no I'd not rule that out, either.

But hey I got to hand it to this thread, I haven't seen anyone come in yelling about Obama being a Muslim or anything (and frankly the thread content is screaming for that to happen) like it is a bad thing.

There would be no point. The man claims insidership, and we're stuck with it, for all his ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Has it occurred to you that this journalism of reporting the rise in Christian persecution is yellow journalism as well to incite Christians like the OP into getting outraged?

Just as possible that it might be true.

Outrage is the wrong word, sad is more like it.

I am hardly able to change a thing.

BenReclused
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

The only faith I have is in the scientists who aid us in investigating this reality, the ones who don't depend on faith.

Therefore, those scientists ARE your Gods, and you're just as religious as anyone else might be.

See ya,
Milt

I don't worship scientists. I consult them.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You're confusing majority with prosecutors. You also fail to realize that Christians are also a minority in many non-western countries. I feel your post has more to do with your own bigotry than anything else really.

Stormdancer777
Monday, Sep 19, 2011
How Obama’s destabilizing the world
American troops are on the ground in an increasing number of volatile countries -- and they're making things worse
www.salon.com...

Please read this article in light of to days situations.

This I agree with.

Pretty much every move he has made in the Middle East has caused the region to become less and less stable. Less stability means usually more violence which means that people who are at risk for various reasons are going to be targeted.

There are several theories for why this is: 1.) He's a closet muslim. 2.) He's a puppet and his advisors (Jarret mainly are muslim). 3.) He was raised to be vehemently anti-colonialist, and he views the current regimes in the region as puppets of Western colonialist powers. Thus, he empathizes with the forces that want to remove those regimes. 4.) The whole administration is simply idiotic.

The only one I really completely discount is #4. When it comes to making moves that completely worsen things in the Middle East, he's pretty much batting 1,000. No one who is completely inept could have that perfect a record.

I think #1 is unlikely but not totally impossible because he was born to a muslim father (makes you muslim in the eyes of most hard-line muslim countries, and if he really had turned on Islam, they should be acting as though he were apostate, which is grounds for summary executation) and spent a decent number of years being raised and going to a muslim school. That being pointed out, he talks a good game and has done nothing to make me think he's still a muslim now in any open way. So, that's why I say it's unlikely. I tend to side when him being whatever he thinks will be most politically expedient at the time.

That leaves us with #2 and #3 which don't even have to be mutually exclusive.