Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

KellyPrettyBear
You are the guy with the hole in your mind who barely powers his own energy system because he is so enthralled by that tear..and the issues you find so compelling..your search for truth...your conflicted feelings about God ufo and the supernatural. Nobody is going to prove anything to you. I doubt Ingo swan could have.

I'm curious about how it all fits together, but I have no feelings of being internally conflicted.

and more trickster stuff is likely on the way for you...that door in your head is currently cracked open.

Oooooh, spooky! I counter your feeble "spell" with: I am rubber, you are glue, whatever you say about me bounces off me and sticks to you, BOO!!

But don't believe me... I'm batting zero guy who exerts evil power over those with weak wills...*eye roll*. You are close to impossible for me to read...90% of your being is in that hole.

Either that or you are full of bovine dookie. (Do I have your permission to reproduce our u2u's where you were making laughably erroneous guesses followed by hilarious excuses?) I can't stop you from fellating yourself here, but, yeah, you are getting on my nerves, I can admit that. Nothing major, just annoying and distracting. If anyone is in the grip of the Trickster, it's you.

I have some info somewhere, where some folk from Scientology are rather peeved that Puthoff & Swann (both highly "accomplished" Scientologists) stole the remote viewing concept without giving credit. Pat Price, we will note, was a Scientologist, too.

No idea what they 'say' but this is a nonsequitur.

Actually this is almost a perfect example of the kind of BS that goes public about RV that is so complicated to correct for the public, because that tiny little thing -- "scientology is mad that Hal/Ingo stole RV" -- is actually wrong for so MANY reasons that one has to do a whole educational program to make it clear just how messed up that one little concept is.

(Nearly everything E.D. puts out is like this. It takes an essay to refute a single sentence sometimes. 'Strategic deception' really IS an art form.)

1. Psi and structured methods have been around since the dawn of time as noted. In the 60s? 70s for sure, Jose Silva had a structured method (what I call an interior method, greatly visualization exercises) called "Silva Mind Control" that was very popular. There's no end of methods (Swann's website talks about this some) dating back to antiquity. As noted previously, RV as a formal term does not define a method, it only defines the science protocol the art is performed within, to minimize fraud, noise, non-psi data sources (that's the biggest one) and many problems. So it doesn't even make sense to say anyone stole RV since this was a) actually SCIENCE rules, not a psychic art, and b) by the people at ASPR who were *NOT* scientologists.

2. Remote Viewing as a term was coined in the ASPR Lab to describe what Swann was doing in the research there. He felt it should be remote sensing not remote viewing, but the scientists named it. You can read him on this at his website I linked above. He was imagining projecting himself out of body above his chair or to a distant city in much of those trials. This has absolutely nothing in common (actual opposite) with the method he later compiled. (Note I said compiled not created.) You can read him on this approach and those days in his autobiographical book "To Kiss Earth Goodbye." So first of all, no other source can fairly claim the "RV" method was theirs, because that particular method he was using for the coining of the term when working in the lab was never actually taught; it was his personal approach, is all.

3. Swann's method that he compiled-created-whatever "for people who were not psychic" was the idea (a fundamental misnomer he himself writes extensively about, without seeing the humor to it) was in great part based on a variety of existing techniques well known to lab viewers / professional psychics already. Some were basics of how information tended to come in (in waves or stages, and some types following other types); some were basics of approaches to information (such as what he called 'ideograms' which began with Rene Warcollier. You can find a blurb about Warcollier's book on this on Russ's site I linked above). Ironically the first part of the method listed as his officially (I posted that method online for the public for the first time in 1998 when I left the field for 4 years) is pretty well identical to a mockup McMoneagle had made for the same purposes -- basically ideograms followed by the next three basic stages of info. Swann's stuff more distinct to him is more then stage 5+ stuff. So if one is referring to the method he taught the 2nd wave of intell guys, then no other source can fairly claim the method was theirs, because most the method is just a compilation of a variety of stuff tons of people already knew, and which did not evolve in the previous few years in a secret cult but rather over many decades if not a century in psychical research labs around the world.

I forgot to mention: this method was not come up with until literally TEN YEARS AFTER 'remote viewing' had been coined and was being performed in labs around the world. This method did not and does not define RV, it is merely a psychic method that you could choose to use within an RV protocol, or not.

4. One of the big dramas during the program was that Swann took eons even to move through the stuff noted above, and while he allegedly had an infinitely-receding method plan for contract money, it was never remotely finished. The last couple of stages that were taught to most (5-6, although there was a 7, and allegedly up to a 10 unfinished) took him eons to finally work out, and there was so much pressure and issue about the time that I think if those had already existed and he was merely lifting them from someone else hidden away, he'd have done it a lot sooner. Also, he was (until McMoneagle surpassed most his records) the best lab psychic on earth (publicly anyway). The claim that anyone else made up something allegedly brilliant related to psi that he stole is kind of chutzpah-hilarious... I wouldn't believe it.

5. It's the other way around! The church stole it from the program. Pat Price stole a huge chunk of documentation related to remote viewing and gave it Scientology. The FBI found it in a raid on one of the S's offices and the drama nearly closed the RV program down. Russ Targ saved it for the most part because he wasn't part of it -- he was one of the only ones NOT part of it -- and he had credentials, and he was able to say bosh, of course this isn't about doing research on gov't money for a cult, it was just one person's behavior, and a good thing too or it likely would have ended there. I heard this from like 9 different people several of whom were literally there before I believed it. Mostly I just couldn't believe that this hadn't resulted in his imprisonment. He did however predict he'd die of a heart attack just before he did. Too bad because he was really into alien underground bases and I would have loved to see his data on those...

reply to post by RedCairo


Its a bit like saying Einstein stole gravity from Newton. Haha

Near as I can tell "remote viewing" has been in practice for thousands of years.

It would be neat to be able to trace its origins though. That's some heavy info for someone to just happen upon.

reply to post by RedCairo

Basically agreed that the concepts have been around for awhile, but I only stated that Scientology takes some issue with the modern approach to the concept referred to as Remote Viewing and that the initial Big Three of RV (Puthoff, Swann, Price) were Scientologists at one time. Does this information contain clues or relevance to motive and character? I think maybe so.

5. It's the other way around! The church stole it from the program. Pat Price stole a huge chunk of documentation related to remote viewing and gave it Scientology.

The Scientology concept, btw, does seem to have predated the possibility of Pat Price stealing it from the SRI crew and taking it back to Scientology. Although I'm quite sure that Price did report back to Scientology, don't get me wrong.

Scientology/Remote Viewing Timeline

Two Scientologists, Hal Puthoff and Ingo Swann, researched remote viewing at Stanford Research Institute for the CIA Project Stargate in the 1970s. Most of the SRI team, including project director Puthoff, and the CIA's star "psychic spies", Price and Swann, were Scientologists...Puthoff and Swann were of the "original" Operating Thetan (OT) VII level (the Church has since 'changed' OT VII from the level these two completed), and credited Scientology with their success in the CIA remote viewing program.

en.wikipedia.org...

In 1970, the Church of Scientology published a notarized letter that had been written by Puthoff while he was conducting research on remote viewing at Stanford. The letter read, in part: "Although critics viewing the system Scientology from the outside may form the impression that Scientology is just another of many quasi-educational quasi-religious 'schemes,' it is in fact a highly sophistical and highly technological system more characteristic of modern corporate planning and applied technology."[26] Among some of the ideas that Puthoff supported regarding remote viewing was the claim in the book Occult Chemistry that two followers of Madame Blavatsky, founder of theosophy, were able to remote-view the inner structure of atoms.

en.wikipedia.org...

The promise of OT Abilities was one which first attracted me to Scientology. I avidly read the “OT Phenomena” stories from OTs in Advance Magazine. Then in the 1970s, I became the Editor of Advance Magazine, and eagerly collected and published these stories. In some ways I was the perfect candidate for Editor – I was not yet OT myself and held an eager fascination for the subject. My sense of awe and anticipation translated itself into the magazine and helped to create a sense of mystery and wonder surrounding the OT Levels.

And the stories certainly were amazing. Stories about communicating over long distances through the mind (telepathy), remote viewing (extrasensory perception or clairvoyance), influencing matter, energy, space and time as a spirit (telekinesis or psychokinesis), supernatural healing, predicting future events (precognition), remembering past lives, dealing with ghosts and haunting, and more. Exciting, heady stuff. Exhilarating and empowering.

And the LRH articles reinforced the sense of wonder. Hubbard told us that we could become a super-being: “A thetan who is completely rehabilitated and can do everything a thetan should do, such as move MEST and control others from a distance, or create his own universe; a person who is able to create his own universe or, living in the MEST universe is able to create illusions…

leavingscientology.wordpress.com...

JayinAR
Near as I can tell "remote viewing" has been in practice for thousands of years.

As a psi process, yeah. Everyone who is interested in actual RV (in today's terminology) really hates that the scientists chose two basic english words for this label which essentially describe (a) something psychic, even though there was no definition on that whatsoever in the lab -- the definition was being set by the science controls; and (b) something generic, which nicely describes literally anything, including scrying, spontaneous psi, and more, and all without any mention of science. As if that isn't bad enough, even the psi term they chose very poorly describes the process which is, for the most part, every sense and often not particularly visual (or if so, someone after the impression or 'translated to' that).

In the lab and officially in science (there is actually an official science), the term remote viewing is only used when psi is done "within an appropriate [scientific] remote viewing protocol." The term literally describes the science protocol not the psi process -- although viewers call it 'viewing' even when working it as psi of course, as slang.

This is actually just another example of the disaster of terminology -- UFOlogy has a lot of this too -- and how the use of terms greatly contributes to how we think about things and how we define things.

reply to post by The GUT


That's what I was thinking of...Leadbeater and Besant being able to remote view atoms. That is an INCREDIBLE story. Anyways, the practice goes way back to Eastern gurus. It would be neat to learn the practice with the more modern protocols. But it makes me wonder about how people were so good with it back in the day without said protocols.

Talk about some very centered people. Their discipline must have been off the charts.

RedCairo
This is actually just another example of the disaster of terminology -- UFOlogy has a lot of this too -- and how the use of terms greatly contributes to how we think about things and how we define things.

Which is where the "twain" meets for me and makes me awful curious. I'm not sure how much the ufological religion of Scientology has to do with all of this, but there are more intersecting nodes than I've covered so far. Certainly in my research not to mention my life and experience.

If I can collate it in a coherent way, I'll post some stuff later today that might be of interest/pertinence.

As lakespirit pointed out: Why would Jacques Vallee write at length about the dangers of "UFO Cults" and fail to go into any depth on Scientology and their evil overlord of the space opera, Xenu the malevolent "Alien?" Scientology arguably, depending on your viewpoint, the largest UFO Cult in existence both then and now.

My own experience suggests that fear might very possibly be the bigger part of the answer. I'm considered a "suppressive person" by the CoS leadership (Church of Scientology.)

Suppressive Person, often abbreviated SP, is a term used in Scientology to describe the "antisocial personalities" who, according to Scientology's founder L. Ron Hubbard, make up about 2.5% of the population. A statement on a Church of Scientology website describes this group as including notorious historic figures such as Adolf Hitler.[1]

The term is often applied to those whom the Church of Scientology perceives as its enemies, i.e., those whose "disastrous" and "suppressive" acts are said to impede the progress of individual Scientologists or the Scientology movement.

en.wikipedia.org...

Being labeled an SP (Supressive Person) makes one "Fair Game."

The term Fair Game is used to describe policies and practices carried out by the Church of Scientology towards people and groups it perceives as its enemies. Founder L. Ron Hubbard established the policy in the 1960s, in response to criticism both from within and outside his organization.[1][2] Individuals or groups who are "Fair Game" are judged to be a threat to the Church and, according to the policy, can be punished and harassed using any and all means possible.

en.wikipedia.org...(Scientology)

It ain't no fun being "fair game," so maybe Jacques opted out? Because these cats really mean it when they say, "can be punished and harassed using any and all means possible."

I'm pretty hard on Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green at times, but that doesn't mean he never impresses me. He's a big boy and I'm sure he understands that we--the public--are curious as to WTF is going on wilth all this cloak and dagger Intel stuff perpetrated on the ufological community that we are not deemed worthy of being privy to.

One area that gives me cause to reassess Kit in a more flattering light, has to do with him reviewing the autopsy of L. Ron Hubbard's son Quentin. I've spoken with Scientologists who had a true affection for Quentin. I think he was a good fella. Was he murdered by L. Ron's minions? Dr. Green certainly suggests his death was neither suicide nor accident.

Where am I going with this? I'm not sure, but I'll try and explain myself better. Gimme a minute.

The GUT
were Scientologists at one time.

So was Ed May, who was the manager in the program and the Director when Puthoff left.

It is humorous to see you so focused on this. You're like 18 years late to this party. In fact if you search the TKR forum archives I'm pretty sure there are cycles (from 2003 when it opened) of obsession and debate with this topic.

Does this information contain clues or relevance to motive and character?

To be fair to them, I think you are making some leaps of assumption. Yes the church existed. Yes it was obsessed with psychic stuff and other things, officially. (Actually probably 50%++ of all cults are obsessed with that, so the "ooh wow look" seems a little overdone -- that is pretty typical of cult interests.) Yes, several people who were leaders in the research had been (were early on, then left the church with a gazillion others in that era, so were not later) in that group.

None of these things are as giant-arrow-incriminating as they seem in a way, though; at that point in time, a rather lot of people who were intellectual + creative + had money + outside-the-box + interested in 'human potential' were in the church and that's a very filtered down set for sure, which they all happened to be in. And, people do tend to choose to hire and hang out with people they know and have something in common with.

Did they hope they'd learn something cool? Of course. Did they plan to tell the church? Well probably, until they left it they probably did. Pretty hard to tell it once they were officially outcasts from it, I imagine.

Was the point of their work solely furtive-minion work 'for' the church of gov't money? Things that would lead to serious question of their "motive and character" as you put it? Nobody can say, but it's fair to consider that these guys were *genuinely interested in the subject* in every possible way. Even if the church hadn't existed, they probably still would have been utterly wild about the idea and dying to research it.

Swann in particular worked his ass off, I mean really worked hard in some eras when he was working in the lab, and he was really, insanely good at what he did. He was a former soldier by the way. I think given there is no evidence for certain things in any direction, it just seems unfair to assume that he was basically betraying his country and spying for his cult because he was part of the research into a topic that -- yes of course -- his cult ALSO had an interest in, which is likely why he was part of it in the first place, because he personally did too.

Whatever the church had in 1970 when Hal wrote that letter was whatever they had, I mentioned Silva's methods and there were others, and remember Hubbard was influenced by OTO in the early days which means Crowley and the whole occult woo ball of wax. But there is no evidence for, and reason to seriously doubt, that whatever the church was doing was what the ASPR researchers (definitely NOT scientologists) with Swann as subject were doing in 1976 when the term "remote viewing" was officially coined in the lab, and used from then on as a science term.

The Scientology concept, btw, does seem to have predated the possibility of Pat Price stealing it from the SRI crew...

In 1970, the Church of Scientology published a notarized letter that had been written by Puthoff while he was conducting research on remote viewing at Stanford.

Careful. The description and narrative (and the later narrative of the editor) says remote viewing. The LETTER Hal wrote does not. The work was not called RV until ASPR -- years later, in another lab with other people. The work that was being done during the era of that letter was a very minimal exploratory project, very temporary, not much funding. It was the work in that project which led later to a little more funding, and then more.

It is probably true that Hal/Ingo might have claimed being Scientologists is what made them successful; that has nothing to do with some assumption about RV itself though; you can see this claim made by people for why they are successful as lawyers and aircraft pilots also. Part of the cult element is the projection of credit for one's personal growth and achievements to the cult and its practices (this is standard definition-of-cult modality).

As noted, the only thing related to RV that could potentially be up for argument about who owns what would be the stage 5 and up of Swann's CRV psi methodology, which was not even compiled by him until the mid 1980s I think it was. That particular bit of info is "from him" -- not from other trackable previous sources -- all the others have other lineage.

The church is actually more than welcome to take those back if they want LOL. S5 is an interior analysis stage one can mostly do without or figure out on their own, and S6 is modeling which is fairly rare and again anyone can do on their own. I never met any good viewer who couldn't get anything they needed (a) without any of the elements of the method anyway, although nearly everyone uses stage progression even without trying and in other methods since that's more just a reflection of the native process, and/or (b) within S2-S4 if using that approach.

Not really relevant to RV in a way, though armchair discussion I suppose.

Probably not relevant to Vallee's control systems. Or maybe it's overwhelmingly relevant. I can't tell.

No offense Gut...but IMO, since Vallee's former buddy J. Allen Hynek had close ties to the CIA along with his track list of debunking seemingly valid reports of alien starships --- I sense that Vallee carries too much excess CIA baggage as well --- which does not offer the respect nor any sense of reliability due to such a person, who partially represents the ufological community such as Jacque Vallee.

RedCairo
The church is actually more than welcome to take those back if they want LOL. S5 is an interior analysis stage one can mostly do without or figure out on their own, and S6 is modeling which is fairly rare and again anyone can do on their own. I never met any good viewer who couldn't get anything they needed (a) without any of the elements of the method anyway, although nearly everyone uses stage progression even without trying and in other methods since that's more just a reflection of the native process, and/or (b) within S2-S4 if using that approach.

Not really relevant to RV in a way, though armchair discussion I suppose.

Probably not relevant to Vallee's control systems. Or maybe it's overwhelmingly relevant. I can't tell.

I can't tell either whether RV'ing or Scientology has much do do with this discussion other than the excellent point raised by lakespirit.

I'm actually having second thoughts about delving into Scientology here for a few different reasons. For one, as previously stated, I have friends that I love both in and now "out" of the organization. This subject also brings up much emotion for me. If no one is that interested in delving into it further, I guess I'd prefer to drop it.

It's rather complex, too, and would require quite an effort to compile it. Then there's the fact that if I explain sufficiently, some folk would probably be identifiable through some of what I write and they've been through enough. I don't want to be a tease, however, so just let me know privately or publicly if y'all think it's worth delving into in the context of this thread.

Erno86
No offense Gut...but IMO, since Vallee's former buddy J. Allen Hynek had close ties to the CIA along with his track list of debunking seemingly valid reports of alien starships --- I sense that Vallee carries too much excess CIA baggage as well --- which does not offer the respect nor any sense of reliability due to such a person, who partially represents the ufological community such as Jacque Vallee.

Hey, Erno! While I sincerely appreciate Vallee's intellectual and philosophical depth and contributions, I also hold space that he might have some mud on his hands. Hynek, too.

It's also quite possible that both Vallee and Hynek were coerced into some rather ugly goings on. I dunno. I'd sure like to, though.

vbstrvct
I don't think anyone has yet suggested this: Vallée's ideas are the actual attack on the control system.

So, I've been thinking about this. The first roadblock I come to is that Vallee seems to demonstrate that he actually truly believes in the Interdimensional Hypothesis.

Even if we exclude his later works, Passport to Magonia (1969) was published well before the documentation that seems to detail the beginning of his "control system" theory.

That book is rather scholarly and indicates a sincere interest and stepping-stone to the IDH. So, it's hard for me to get around that and believe he was setting up some "counter-argument" to manipulate the phenomenon.

I'm not saying he didn't, just that the above is a hurdle to jump in attempting to validate your possible theory. Don't get me wrong: I still think it's up for investigation and that it shows some great thinking on your part.

Hey,

So there's two Control Systems to be concerned about, right? The one that Vallee is talking about and the one all the shadowy research is trying to mimic?

reply to post by Bybyots


Yes. The real one and the other one where burned out old intelligence sorcerers are trying to affect the real one by running a psychological operation on society.

But if many or all humans actually contribute to the trickster phenomenon...then it would be like ones own right brain hemisphere trying to play games with ones left brain hemisphere.

In fact that to some degree may actually be happening..

Bybyots
So there's two Control Systems to be concerned about, right? The one that Vallee is talking about and the one all the shadowy research is trying to mimic?

That's basically how I'm parsing it at the moment. Your Vallee/Morissey tale was BRILLIANT, btw. FUNNY, too. So well-written and conceived. Wish I had that kind o' talent no lie.

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

the trickster phenomenon

What do you mean here, Kelly? I kind of get the impression that you might mean that part of us that we don't know is part of us that is trying to instruct us through what you have termed liminality.

Close?

reply to post by The GUT

That's basically how I'm parsing it at the moment.

Thanks TG, I'm glad you thought it was funny. It was cracking me up too so I had to get it out.



Yep, that's the way I figure it as well.

Been fun so far. Standing by.

The GUT

That's basically how I'm parsing it at the moment.

If the UFO enigma is reducible to ET or ID, then there are two control systems.

If the UFO enigma is reducible to us, as a psychic manifestation of the trickster archetype, then there is one control system, and one game that the trickster is playing with shadowy research people who want to think they have a control system too.

reply to post by Bybyots


if you want to increase your knowledge on the Trickster phenomenon read "The trickster and the paranormal". It's a good read.

but yes..The racial unconscious...The 'field'.. High weirdness. ..faeries angels demons 'gods' and a huge mass of psychoactive matter and energy like in the movie "forbidden planet:...that lies resists analysis knows your thoughts and the future and can even materialize into solid space ships that appear on radar and cause environmental damage....

quite a topic

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


I have something I want to share with you all before I split, but first, Kelly? What was that other thing? You had some name you were using, I think borrowed from Alexander having to do with Mothman-type "entities".

Do you remember what it was?



ETA: Never mind, I've got it: precognitive sentient phenomenon.

BRB.