I also think y'all are closer to the same page than you might think.
Oh I agree. It's just that on forums "me too" is sorta pointless so one mostly tends to talk about what they disagree about or just have extra to
wax on about. :-)
So: PLEASE elaborate on these intelligence folk and how you perceive them.
Run, don't walk. There, I'm done.
Well crap, someone will probably beat me up over that as being hyperbolic and vague I bet. So:
Like any other soldier, they're just people. They are smart and creative and personable as part of that line of work. They served our country, which
I have enormous respect for. They pay the side-effect price for their service, as all soldiers do, and in intell's case, often the symptoms are a
little different. This is only my theory you understand. It is somewhat rude to generalize about any group of people including them. But I kind of
need to in order to get to the eventual larger point.
Once, a guy I knew was a honky-tonk singer, a very good one actually, he did country music. He could sound like just about anybody on the radio. One
day he said that he didn't actually know how to sound like himself anymore. He'd spent so many years singing like someone else, singing other
people's music, taking on the persona of X and how they perform even their speech and stance and personality and such, that he had no idea what he
sounded like, would not be able to write something that was 'his,' and no matter what he did, even when he just wanted to sing happy birthday, he
was singing it 'as' Don Williams or George Straight or Randy Travis -- he didn't have a him anymore. It was lost.
This happens to truth, with some people. There is a certain kind of personal integrity that comes from even an ordinary amount of what is real and
truthful in one's life, and there are side effects to not having it. There are people who can work against those effects by eventually recognizing
the issue, and by choosing something to find truth and integrity in, and holding hard to that. (Much like combat soldiers will sometimes choose a
thing they will, or will not, do, and hold to that as their point of ethic; because for several reasons, humans need to have one. Almost no matter
what it is, as long as it is true and meaningful to them.) Not having it tends to result in people who have no rudder at all. The side effect of this
tends to be various degrees of insanity. Some are sociopathy and cruelty. Some are pathological lying, messianic-paranoic. The latter is more common
in what I've seen with intell guys, not that I am any expert.
There are people who only have a certain 'degree' of symptoms, such as when they learn to justify to themselves that only certain topics are
completely excluded from the domain of truth, or only certain groups of people. They develop an extremely flexible persona -- they are whomever they
need to be -- and to some degree, become what a guy I know calls information whores, as if information is its own reward (regardless of source or
validity), and whatever personality helps them "get close to" people, so people will "trust" them, becomes the default persona, the default
behavior. Generally I have never met anybody from intell who did not fit this paragraph. The rest varies.
If it were music, they'd just naturally fall into the personality and even speech and cadence of George Straight with one guy and Eddie Van Halen
with another, and eventually, not even be aware they were doing it. They are professional chameleons, not because they studied it, though many did,
but because their inbuilt personality was actually already given to that for various reasons. It is not something they get over, or leave with the
job. It was who they were to begin with, and it was even more who they were when their service was over. For better or worse. Usually for worse. There
I only know a small number of people. I cannot begin to speak for the entirety of anybody. I'm sure there are many complete contradictions to my
experience. So I am answering you only in the context of the few I have met (just under a dozen) as part of all that.
There are those who have a full-bore range of symptoms and are literally not sane anymore, but not in the ordinary ways we recognize, although some
borderline schizophrenics are similar. They have so lost the feeling of truth psychologically that subconsciously they overcompensate -- one becomes
immensely over-pedantic, with technojargon and obsessive detail because "accuracy" is the best we can do in our flotsam-jetsom world to mimic
"truth." Which it is not. But you see them lost in ever-more obsession on that focus because they just... can't... feel it. They lost their
rudder... they lost their way.
They are still highly intelligent and experienced, still highly creative and personable up close. But they're like an NPC, a non-playing character
programmed to just sort of randomly mix truth and lies and show up at unpredictable times (but predictably to affect the most people possible) and do
a tap dance they seem to sincerely believe in. But they're lost. When it's not infuriating or disgusting, it's sad.
You see the personas of former intell gather people to them, to match, like a dropped strawberry gathers ants.
Intell-guy-X has a modus operandi where whatever you are paranoid about, whatever and whomever you are suspicious of, whatever strange and disturbing
experience you have had... he knows. After the first time he's heard the story, he knows because he's had it. (If it's interesting, he will later
tell others it is his own experience. Yes, your details, or the one you know your friend told him yesterday. Privately to others who did not hear it
reported by someone else. He's highly intelligent which has got to be necessary to keep track of the sheer quantity of this sort of thing.) He will
listen to your story of suspicion with a quirked eyebrow and a serious look, and then nod quietly, and oh so calmly assure you... yes. Whatever
completely far out crazy paranoid crap you have in your head... he agrees with you. You can be assured that secretly... you are right. Now, he has
just psychologically confirmed for you something you may have few if any other people who relate to, or with whom you've shared it, and he has an
'official' sort of status that makes him a degree of authority figure in most peoples' minds, as well as being a seeming insider who most wide-eyed
sorts think knows everything. Whatever you believe in... he agrees. So if you happen to believe in much of anything that you have a psychological need
for validation about, he's got you already.
Should you need further psychological bonding, he will find a shared enemy with you. His stories are amazing. The vituperous evil in the universe is
so shocking, and you just want to kill the people he's talking about. If you don't have one, he'll make one up. Hint: it could vary, but given his
mother issues it'll almost certainly be a woman. The stories are actually the same for several women whose names were changed out over time. The
woman (names vary) is True Evil (tm). In any case you will identify with him because he is so down to earth and totally believable, shares your
enemies if you have any, and shares your suspicions, paranoias or lurking fears if you have any. You might say, "RC, you're describing a cult
leader." Hmmn, yes, yes I am...
Intell-guy-Q has a modus operandi where all his very interesting past experiences are interpreted within the light of a personal spiritual path. This
experience if public would probably have him lynched by every soldier (not to mention female) and thrown in a bog, but that was the past and now, the
important thing is, love and light. We will just not focus on things that are not love and light because why do people insist on surrounding
themselves with negativity? And you can make a barrel-ton of money on 'training' seminars if people like you. And people gather... because it's
spiritual, you know, this is what really matters, and the really cool former mil intell association is just, well, really cool, no matter how or why
that ended... wait, you might say, "RC, you're describing a cult leader." Hmmn, yes, yes I am...
Intell-guy-Z has a modus operandi where he's the reasonable guy you count on. He's the bloody boy next door and if you have any doubt, he's got
cookies and baseball to prove it. He doesn't believe in that paranoid stuff. He doesn't believe in that alien stuff. He's just an average guy, here
you go, have a cookie. Now, this is actually one of my favorite personas, since it involves a relatively limited amount of subjective morals and
flexible concepts of reality and truth compared to all the others. But it still has some, falling more into the early categories of 'some' subjects
and 'some' groups excluded, and suffers the global issue I'll mention later which is seriously damaging to the larger issue of learning RV but at
least not evil in any other way.
Intell-guy-Y has a modus operandi affected by having lost with a capital L his truth decades ago, probably around when X did or maybe a little sooner,
soon enough to make X's life hell in the old unit which probably contributed to something. As suave-smooth-smarmy a character as ever, as intelligent
and creative, but with rudderless devolution of the messianic-paranoic pathologically-untrue psychology.
Maybe he will make up a 'target' (something in space which does not exist) in his head (already checked out of reality here), 'lead' a 'student'
through the session like charades (every hypnotist, never mind double-blind viewer, sees the inevitable coming here), 'interprets' the students'
data to mean what he'd like it to mean (oh good god, but since he made up the target, what else could it mean?), and then that very night (I am not
making this up) will tell everyone on global radio how their wife and children are going to die because his better-than-the-government's-RV team's
work for a year-long project has found this result. Oh, maybe there are a few little fibs involved there... gosh, who would know? He trusted nobody
would know or it wouldn't matter. I knew. I know. I say it out loud. People say I'm such a Big Fat Hater because, having a background in hypnosis,
and a personal penchant for ethics violated in 8 ways there, not to mention a serious interest in RV which was obliterated and not remotely even
involved, despite being claimed as the source... well it's kind of a hot button for me, even years later. In part because this is one of only a
gazillion examples, but it's such a freaking perfect one, and if even this one is true the rest are not even needed.
But there are so many others. I think he learned: "If you just keep lying, and lying, and lying, eventually the people who are against you have such
an uphill battle to de-program all the insanity out of anyone who's been listening to you -- because if you lie properly, a single sentence can
literally include like 12 things that are all misleading, this is an art form you know! -- they sound crazier than you do just describing your
The important thing in that persona's world is that we are all doomed. And since white industrial nations pissed off the aliens who will ruin our
planet in their disgust that we are ruining our planet (...?...), doom will begin in the wilds of Africa where it belongs not in Beverly Hills where
HE was living. Oh but wait... no that was yet another doom... I think the current doom is the sun. Because most of the dooms, excluding the ALIEN
dooms which are really my favorites, come from science magazines, based on things already documented as happening and even highly likely to recur, but
which the public knows little of. Then later when eventually some tiny story is in the mainstream people can point to it and say look! He predicted
mutant frogs, and the jet stream!... sigh... really, people... But as for that planetary doom... he knows a safe space. Only him. 'cause he's
special. Maybe he can save you, help you save yourself. For enough money.
We've got pathological lying, ego-messianic, global-paranoic, guy whose last unit (along with Q's) was 'strategic deception' -- during which he
was illegally releasing military info including names while promoting RV in public (it was not declassified) -- soon enough to give him leverage to
actually work against anyone else in the field once it went public not long later, conveniently -- he was reported by many with high ranks in a few
services, but instead of punished was promoted to Major and retired. Oh. All that stuff wrapped up with a pretty bow.
He also managed to tie RV to the most effective disinformation campaign on earth -- UFOlogy -- to contribute to its massive public misinterpretation,
and to recruit a few people who were even better at it than he was -- by sheer accident almost, just by nature of their person combined with his oh so
expert cult introduction. And while we're at it, he removed every element that made "cult-like ridiculous psychic BS" into "remote viewing in a
science context" because all of those pesky rules interfered with him being omniscient, let alone f-ing with your mind. Bah, who needs a doubleblind?
Who needs feedback? Who even needs a specific target? It has nothing, NO-THING, to do with RV, but he was a very brief part of that former program so
he can claim that 'using the same method to write it down' counts. (...) There are various rules in science. Taken as a set they're called a
protocol. Military uses that term also to mean the rules/steps/method of a thing. His primary public efforts, in the midst of all else, were to
establish in everyone's mind that an RV protocol was 'his method.' Not that it was the science rules which were the only thing that made it worth
having. So the scientists say, "If it's not done within an RV protocol it isn't legit or trustworthy." And he can say, "I teach the RV
protocols!" and the public has no idea they are talking about completely different things.
And as for training, well, it's hard not to bond to him during that. He'll lead anybody through the alleged nearby date of their impending death or
actual death... once a guy I knew who'd just finished telling him about his bypass surgery, so he was vulnerable... no, no destabilization there. But
he's good with people. Others won't go for the vulnerable stuff, he gets that right off. For THOSE marks he'll lead them through the potential
"true destiny" they have, and this confirms something of deep value to them -- as they knew they were destined for glory. Whether you get to
experience his hypnosis-charades wrongly called RV to include the annihilation of your whole planet is a variable. Maybe if you're lucky and there's
Now that your own psi and his delusion are forcibly blended in a student's psychology, they have a choice, either not believe in anything they
experienced including the idea they have psi, or buy into it, which includes buying him, and his worldviews, which he has completely threaded into the
entire indoctrination experience. Given people pay a lot, there's some incentive to believe. If you weren't intentionally trained OUT of and AWAY
from every primary tenet of legitimate remote viewing for $10,000, for which you get a "Professional Remote Viewer" certificate (seriously I can't
believe the man hasn't been sued), as well as getting a serious MindF---, you didn't get properly vetted. You might say, "RC, you're describing a
cult leader." Hmmn, yes, yes I am...
Now it might seem strange that there is so much cult element here, but it's really not. You have to understand that there was a time when research
and extensive testing took place to get the initial people in that old program. But then there was this scientist in charge of the money who had a
friend who was, to that point (time changed it, but not much), the best lab psychic in the world, hands down. And the friend was likely a bloody
glorious human being in many ways but was also, bless his late heart, a cult leader by both accident (he came from long exposure IN a cult himself)
and by design (his friend [also in that cult and with shared views on such things] who was the leader gave him carte blanche to ditch science, ditch
all entry level baseline testing, ditch those pesky rules and labs and such, and to just be "the one and only sole expert in the universe" to train
a few soldiers who were pointedly (ironically) thought to be NOT psychic so he could 'train' them). This was part of the idea for the method you see
that they had to believe in him and the method utterly and nothing else.
He had an idea for a method, much like his former cult had a method, for making people psychic. Except it didn't exist. But he wanted it to exist. He
wanted to be the one that would make up a way to make it happen. And since his friend was in charge he got funding and permission to make one up, so
then it would exist, and this was constantly 'sold' long before it did exist to higher-ups. (There are many amusing stories in the meantime of his
occasional social jaunts with people where he'd tell them about the uniforms he had planned for his people. This man invented Babalon 5's Psi Corps
before they did.)
So instead of learning about psi as a practical matter and instead of just sitting down and doing it to test baseline talent, and then doing it A LOT
and properly to learn and get better, which is how the first group worked, for that second group of guys in 'training' it was all about the expert
'trainer' and all about the 'method' (insert trademark here).
Many personal reports on the training experience make it clear that Joan Crawford had nothing on this man for mommy-dearest behavior. What many people
don't seem to understand is that any human being, including soldiers in intell, can be cult indoctrinated. Especially in that environment. And it
worked pretty damn well for most of them.
And what they came out of that believing, with utter sincerity, as they all told me in 95, and some in 96 and 97, was that what mattered was the
trainer, and the method. The science guys had freaked out during the program because the latter team ditched the doubleblind, but bah, what do white
coats know, they couldn't stand them anyway because during that training, there was much dissension between their guru and those guys in the lab. As
Schnabel (of whom I'm not a fan, though I do like his writing style. Darn it. Don't you hate it when you dislike someone's behavior but you think
they're talented? Why can't all jerks be ugly and unskilled?) reported in his book, when the unit eventually closed, they found literally years of
fed-x reports sent the unit -- unopened. They knew everything already, you see. They had the only expert in the world! They had the only method that
mattered. They didn't need no steenkin' science or anybody else's input at all (even though it was being done specifically to support their work).
They were unfamiliar with published science directly about the topic that even I as a laymen knew. They were unaware that the results in their own
unit were so dismal that most serious work shifted to viewers in the science lab instead, so while (as Schnabel reported) they were doing second jobs
and hobbies during their shifts, the real work was being done by people who'd actually do real RV and _could_ do it well enough. How embarrassing,
right. It was humiliating and infuriating when they learned this stuff well after the fact -- sometimes because I learned it since I knew the other
people, and came back to them with it and they went "No way! Wasn't so!" but then found out it was, when talking to those people. This was well
into the period when they'd established themselves as experts for the current universe on all things RV.
Of course, from the day they were public, their stories slightly shifted, shifted, this little rough edge got smoothed out, that ignorance got
resolved, this logical fallacy got corrected, this totally wrong fact got revised, until by that time, they were almost completely different
presentations about the topic than they began with anyway. Ah, the internet. What they believed and said initially has pretty little relationship to
what they did down the road. There are exceptions. But experts Q-Y-X in particular, having all seriously lost track of Truth to varying degrees for
varying reasons, were all especially expert and fluent at this. It's glossy and slick now. It's so frackin' convincing in person that even if you
were present and KNOW something is an outright falsehood you're questioning yourself, they are SO sincere and believable. People like that are
Bottom line, RV is an art performed within a science protocol
. The art is "whatever
people have been doing since the dawn of time" most of which has been drowned in BS and cults and fraud and marketing and more. There's been methods
even since before Silva's Mind Control psi method decades ago. Everybody's got one. The irony about "the method" these guys learned is that most
of its primary elements were already in use by lab psychics for quite a long time in some cases, before he just happened to wrap it into his method
because he being a lab psychic also knew that. So the things most lab psychics actually learned anyway, because they were historical precedent and
basic good practice, were much of it. It wasn't nearly as exclusive, aside from here's a package paradigm with a label on it, as it seemed. That
didn't keep variations on it from costing people 10 grand or more years later...
The science protocol is what was truly new to the world. It is what resulted in the highest % of accuracy in the lab under the most stringent controls
of any kind of psi study in history. Which is not an overwhelming % but is replicable and is statistically significant. And it didn't start out as it
ended, the protocol evolved as anything in science does, it was radically different (tighter) in '96 than in '76 for example.
And of course it depends on what you're studying. At this point psi is so over-proven compared to anything else (see Dr. Utts' paper in '91
Statistical Science journal, Replication and Meta-Analysis in Parapsychology, where she evidences that psi has better data than even medical studies
considered so overwhelmingly evidenced they were stopped for humane reasons...) few would bother spending the non-existent funding to re-prove it all
over again -- so a lot of the study for the 20 years of stargate was on details.
95% of the program's paperwork is and will always be classified. 5% of the file drawer dregs was intentionally reviewed and released to the public so
the CIA could see what became of its minor efforts to further stick a fork in things.
I think this is probably best summed up by a conversation I had with (the late) Mario Truzzi one day (I miss him). We were debating something about
research and I said, put it on paper, show me even one damn thing you can say about research RV that you doubt, I want to know, I want to find it or
find out why it hasn't been resolved, I will push on this, I want every fair argument there is, and anything I get from alleged skeptics, they are
morons. You're not a moron, so you give me the truth, what is weak and why. He said, oh there's nothing like that anymore. It has more than
evidenced there's something to it. But what he doubted, it turns out, was RV as it was sold in public
. He went to the annual RV conferences
because he thought it was an awesome stitch for a sociologist, like way fun. Better than a zoo I guess.
He says, "One signature. That's all it would have taken. One signature and these guys would have never said anything to anybody. Instead they're
all over TV and the radio and magazines telling the world they're experts at RV and 'teaching' RV" -- to exclude the doubleblind, and often
feedback, either but especially both of which make it a joke -- "but only ONE signature would have stopped it all. And the CIA made it public and oh
so very conveniently "loosed" these guys on the world. To go forth as experts and promote their way to the world." It was that part that he was
massively skeptical about. Especially since it turns out he knew the latter part of the program's history some noted above. I said, "Oh." And here
I'd thought I was going to have a big argument about science.
There is a lot more to this... I swear, I should write a freaking book about it, I have a huge encyclopedic outline, I have three people I admire and
who are big names in that world willing to write an intro/afterword/whatever for me, but it's one of those things that I just burned out so badly on
the topic I can barely function around it. I'm just so cynical.
At one point I left that field entirely for 4 years and when I came back, thinking I'd got it to a point online that things would be really good by
then, it was worse than ever, I couldn't believe it. After a year of not being able to get what I wanted from an email group, which wanted to grow
too much but didn't want to truly explore enough, I joined some others and founded a free public project to help people of all ideals, doctrines and
dogmas and methods get together and talk about stuff, and get some private or public online practice in until they can find a better more in-person
way to work, called TKR
. At the time there was not a single public place where you wouldn't be deleted or even
mocked by the people running it, there wasn't any source of info that wasn't someone who wanted your money and a lot of it, so it was a big deal to
have. It's almost hilariously sad how infighting-political any topic can be. But of course, the infamous personas I noted above and their behavior
and their sucky anti-training (people are LESS dangerous to secrets the more 'official training' they have in psi from ex-intell people, isn't that
an amazing coincidence?) caused much of it.
I've had very little to do with the project for a long time, which is killing it in a way, but I've had a difficult time getting my psychology back
into a non-burned-out zone even though it's been some years now. I really need to take time this spring for more programming to update it and maybe
to bring in some new people, since many of the other staff have suffered some of the same curve I have, or have simply moved on and got a life. It is
very difficult to find staff for the project because first, the intell guys seduce nearly everybody and it's like you can't trust anybody to be
immune to it until they've already been through that cycle, after which they're usually cynical and don't want to be part of anything. Second, psi
is associated with psychological instability for some fairly good reasons in terms of percentages, and just when you think someone is reasonable and
might do they go wild hair and start ranting about something that makes you realize they're not nearly as stable as you hoped. (It's not the topic.
It's how the rant is done. Few people could out-weird me for topic!) Everyone ELSE has decided they're omniscient and if you have money, they'll
sell you a seminar... Sigh...
Many of the people in the field are good, though. I met my two best friends in the world via RV, and several other good friends, and there are many
truly good people in that project. I wouldn't take back the experience, even though ironically it led me in great part back to a practice I'd let go
of but during one experimental project came to realize actually meant more to me. I'll return to it someday, if I live long enough and get enough
time to re-focus on it at some point. I've had some truly amazing experiences with it, although some were during psi, not sessions fairly classified
Have any of them been mentioned here, btw? I'm begging! Hug!
Probably all of them at some point. I will not name names or answer/agree to guesses. It's likely relatively obvious to anybody who knows the
Note: 'Star Gate' is a term retroactively applied to the CIA's selective compilation of a group of a past projects that focused on psychic research
primarily but not limited to remote viewing. The very last of those projects which were publicly known was called Star Gate which is where the term
came from. Currently if you inquire into records for military research into psi I'm pretty sure you will be redirected to Star Gate. There is no
evidence that the CIA's compilation of all those known projects actually includes all the projects which may be related to the topic, but now that
it's been repackaged like this, probably nothing else will be found.
I can tell this is way too long, it'll let me post but it won't let me edit, so I hope I didn't screw it up. I don't know why the char count thing
doesn't work for me except in edit.