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Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

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posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 09:02 PM

Would it be possible to get a nice sound spanking instead?

You mean of another sort than I just gave you? I know someone with those leanings. I'll have 'em u2u you. I'm compassionate like that.

edit on 27-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 09:45 PM

I also think y'all are closer to the same page than you might think.

Oh I agree. It's just that on forums "me too" is sorta pointless so one mostly tends to talk about what they disagree about or just have extra to wax on about. :-)

So: PLEASE elaborate on these intelligence folk and how you perceive them.

Run, don't walk. There, I'm done.

Well crap, someone will probably beat me up over that as being hyperbolic and vague I bet. So:

Like any other soldier, they're just people. They are smart and creative and personable as part of that line of work. They served our country, which I have enormous respect for. They pay the side-effect price for their service, as all soldiers do, and in intell's case, often the symptoms are a little different. This is only my theory you understand. It is somewhat rude to generalize about any group of people including them. But I kind of need to in order to get to the eventual larger point.

Once, a guy I knew was a honky-tonk singer, a very good one actually, he did country music. He could sound like just about anybody on the radio. One day he said that he didn't actually know how to sound like himself anymore. He'd spent so many years singing like someone else, singing other people's music, taking on the persona of X and how they perform even their speech and stance and personality and such, that he had no idea what he sounded like, would not be able to write something that was 'his,' and no matter what he did, even when he just wanted to sing happy birthday, he was singing it 'as' Don Williams or George Straight or Randy Travis -- he didn't have a him anymore. It was lost.

This happens to truth, with some people. There is a certain kind of personal integrity that comes from even an ordinary amount of what is real and truthful in one's life, and there are side effects to not having it. There are people who can work against those effects by eventually recognizing the issue, and by choosing something to find truth and integrity in, and holding hard to that. (Much like combat soldiers will sometimes choose a thing they will, or will not, do, and hold to that as their point of ethic; because for several reasons, humans need to have one. Almost no matter what it is, as long as it is true and meaningful to them.) Not having it tends to result in people who have no rudder at all. The side effect of this tends to be various degrees of insanity. Some are sociopathy and cruelty. Some are pathological lying, messianic-paranoic. The latter is more common in what I've seen with intell guys, not that I am any expert.

There are people who only have a certain 'degree' of symptoms, such as when they learn to justify to themselves that only certain topics are completely excluded from the domain of truth, or only certain groups of people. They develop an extremely flexible persona -- they are whomever they need to be -- and to some degree, become what a guy I know calls information whores, as if information is its own reward (regardless of source or validity), and whatever personality helps them "get close to" people, so people will "trust" them, becomes the default persona, the default behavior. Generally I have never met anybody from intell who did not fit this paragraph. The rest varies.

If it were music, they'd just naturally fall into the personality and even speech and cadence of George Straight with one guy and Eddie Van Halen with another, and eventually, not even be aware they were doing it. They are professional chameleons, not because they studied it, though many did, but because their inbuilt personality was actually already given to that for various reasons. It is not something they get over, or leave with the job. It was who they were to begin with, and it was even more who they were when their service was over. For better or worse. Usually for worse. There are exceptions.

I only know a small number of people. I cannot begin to speak for the entirety of anybody. I'm sure there are many complete contradictions to my experience. So I am answering you only in the context of the few I have met (just under a dozen) as part of all that.

There are those who have a full-bore range of symptoms and are literally not sane anymore, but not in the ordinary ways we recognize, although some borderline schizophrenics are similar. They have so lost the feeling of truth psychologically that subconsciously they overcompensate -- one becomes immensely over-pedantic, with technojargon and obsessive detail because "accuracy" is the best we can do in our flotsam-jetsom world to mimic "truth." Which it is not. But you see them lost in ever-more obsession on that focus because they just... can't... feel it. They lost their rudder... they lost their way.

They are still highly intelligent and experienced, still highly creative and personable up close. But they're like an NPC, a non-playing character programmed to just sort of randomly mix truth and lies and show up at unpredictable times (but predictably to affect the most people possible) and do a tap dance they seem to sincerely believe in. But they're lost. When it's not infuriating or disgusting, it's sad.


You see the personas of former intell gather people to them, to match, like a dropped strawberry gathers ants.

Intell-guy-X has a modus operandi where whatever you are paranoid about, whatever and whomever you are suspicious of, whatever strange and disturbing experience you have had... he knows. After the first time he's heard the story, he knows because he's had it. (If it's interesting, he will later tell others it is his own experience. Yes, your details, or the one you know your friend told him yesterday. Privately to others who did not hear it reported by someone else. He's highly intelligent which has got to be necessary to keep track of the sheer quantity of this sort of thing.) He will listen to your story of suspicion with a quirked eyebrow and a serious look, and then nod quietly, and oh so calmly assure you... yes. Whatever completely far out crazy paranoid crap you have in your head... he agrees with you. You can be assured that secretly... you are right. Now, he has just psychologically confirmed for you something you may have few if any other people who relate to, or with whom you've shared it, and he has an 'official' sort of status that makes him a degree of authority figure in most peoples' minds, as well as being a seeming insider who most wide-eyed sorts think knows everything. Whatever you believe in... he agrees. So if you happen to believe in much of anything that you have a psychological need for validation about, he's got you already.

Should you need further psychological bonding, he will find a shared enemy with you. His stories are amazing. The vituperous evil in the universe is so shocking, and you just want to kill the people he's talking about. If you don't have one, he'll make one up. Hint: it could vary, but given his mother issues it'll almost certainly be a woman. The stories are actually the same for several women whose names were changed out over time. The woman (names vary) is True Evil (tm). In any case you will identify with him because he is so down to earth and totally believable, shares your enemies if you have any, and shares your suspicions, paranoias or lurking fears if you have any. You might say, "RC, you're describing a cult leader." Hmmn, yes, yes I am...

Intell-guy-Q has a modus operandi where all his very interesting past experiences are interpreted within the light of a personal spiritual path. This experience if public would probably have him lynched by every soldier (not to mention female) and thrown in a bog, but that was the past and now, the important thing is, love and light. We will just not focus on things that are not love and light because why do people insist on surrounding themselves with negativity? And you can make a barrel-ton of money on 'training' seminars if people like you. And people gather... because it's spiritual, you know, this is what really matters, and the really cool former mil intell association is just, well, really cool, no matter how or why that ended... wait, you might say, "RC, you're describing a cult leader." Hmmn, yes, yes I am...

Intell-guy-Z has a modus operandi where he's the reasonable guy you count on. He's the bloody boy next door and if you have any doubt, he's got cookies and baseball to prove it. He doesn't believe in that paranoid stuff. He doesn't believe in that alien stuff. He's just an average guy, here you go, have a cookie. Now, this is actually one of my favorite personas, since it involves a relatively limited amount of subjective morals and flexible concepts of reality and truth compared to all the others. But it still has some, falling more into the early categories of 'some' subjects and 'some' groups excluded, and suffers the global issue I'll mention later which is seriously damaging to the larger issue of learning RV but at least not evil in any other way.

Intell-guy-Y has a modus operandi affected by having lost with a capital L his truth decades ago, probably around when X did or maybe a little sooner, soon enough to make X's life hell in the old unit which probably contributed to something. As suave-smooth-smarmy a character as ever, as intelligent and creative, but with rudderless devolution of the messianic-paranoic pathologically-untrue psychology.

Maybe he will make up a 'target' (something in space which does not exist) in his head (already checked out of reality here), 'lead' a 'student' through the session like charades (every hypnotist, never mind double-blind viewer, sees the inevitable coming here), 'interprets' the students' data to mean what he'd like it to mean (oh good god, but since he made up the target, what else could it mean?), and then that very night (I am not making this up) will tell everyone on global radio how their wife and children are going to die because his better-than-the-government's-RV team's work for a year-long project has found this result. Oh, maybe there are a few little fibs involved there... gosh, who would know? He trusted nobody would know or it wouldn't matter. I knew. I know. I say it out loud. People say I'm such a Big Fat Hater because, having a background in hypnosis, and a personal penchant for ethics violated in 8 ways there, not to mention a serious interest in RV which was obliterated and not remotely even involved, despite being claimed as the source... well it's kind of a hot button for me, even years later. In part because this is one of only a gazillion examples, but it's such a freaking perfect one, and if even this one is true the rest are not even needed.

But there are so many others. I think he learned: "If you just keep lying, and lying, and lying, eventually the people who are against you have such an uphill battle to de-program all the insanity out of anyone who's been listening to you -- because if you lie properly, a single sentence can literally include like 12 things that are all misleading, this is an art form you know! -- they sound crazier than you do just describing your craziness."

The important thing in that persona's world is that we are all doomed. And since white industrial nations pissed off the aliens who will ruin our planet in their disgust that we are ruining our planet (...?...), doom will begin in the wilds of Africa where it belongs not in Beverly Hills where HE was living. Oh but wait... no that was yet another doom... I think the current doom is the sun. Because most of the dooms, excluding the ALIEN dooms which are really my favorites, come from science magazines, based on things already documented as happening and even highly likely to recur, but which the public knows little of. Then later when eventually some tiny story is in the mainstream people can point to it and say look! He predicted mutant frogs, and the jet stream!... sigh... really, people... But as for that planetary doom... he knows a safe space. Only him. 'cause he's special. Maybe he can save you, help you save yourself. For enough money.

We've got pathological lying, ego-messianic, global-paranoic, guy whose last unit (along with Q's) was 'strategic deception' -- during which he was illegally releasing military info including names while promoting RV in public (it was not declassified) -- soon enough to give him leverage to actually work against anyone else in the field once it went public not long later, conveniently -- he was reported by many with high ranks in a few services, but instead of punished was promoted to Major and retired. Oh. All that stuff wrapped up with a pretty bow.

He also managed to tie RV to the most effective disinformation campaign on earth -- UFOlogy -- to contribute to its massive public misinterpretation, and to recruit a few people who were even better at it than he was -- by sheer accident almost, just by nature of their person combined with his oh so expert cult introduction. And while we're at it, he removed every element that made "cult-like ridiculous psychic BS" into "remote viewing in a science context" because all of those pesky rules interfered with him being omniscient, let alone f-ing with your mind. Bah, who needs a doubleblind? Who needs feedback? Who even needs a specific target? It has nothing, NO-THING, to do with RV, but he was a very brief part of that former program so he can claim that 'using the same method to write it down' counts. (...) There are various rules in science. Taken as a set they're called a protocol. Military uses that term also to mean the rules/steps/method of a thing. His primary public efforts, in the midst of all else, were to establish in everyone's mind that an RV protocol was 'his method.' Not that it was the science rules which were the only thing that made it worth having. So the scientists say, "If it's not done within an RV protocol it isn't legit or trustworthy." And he can say, "I teach the RV protocols!" and the public has no idea they are talking about completely different things.

And as for training, well, it's hard not to bond to him during that. He'll lead anybody through the alleged nearby date of their impending death or actual death... once a guy I knew who'd just finished telling him about his bypass surgery, so he was vulnerable... no, no destabilization there. But he's good with people. Others won't go for the vulnerable stuff, he gets that right off. For THOSE marks he'll lead them through the potential "true destiny" they have, and this confirms something of deep value to them -- as they knew they were destined for glory. Whether you get to experience his hypnosis-charades wrongly called RV to include the annihilation of your whole planet is a variable. Maybe if you're lucky and there's time.

Now that your own psi and his delusion are forcibly blended in a student's psychology, they have a choice, either not believe in anything they experienced including the idea they have psi, or buy into it, which includes buying him, and his worldviews, which he has completely threaded into the entire indoctrination experience. Given people pay a lot, there's some incentive to believe. If you weren't intentionally trained OUT of and AWAY from every primary tenet of legitimate remote viewing for $10,000, for which you get a "Professional Remote Viewer" certificate (seriously I can't believe the man hasn't been sued), as well as getting a serious MindF---, you didn't get properly vetted. You might say, "RC, you're describing a cult leader." Hmmn, yes, yes I am...


Now it might seem strange that there is so much cult element here, but it's really not. You have to understand that there was a time when research and extensive testing took place to get the initial people in that old program. But then there was this scientist in charge of the money who had a friend who was, to that point (time changed it, but not much), the best lab psychic in the world, hands down. And the friend was likely a bloody glorious human being in many ways but was also, bless his late heart, a cult leader by both accident (he came from long exposure IN a cult himself) and by design (his friend [also in that cult and with shared views on such things] who was the leader gave him carte blanche to ditch science, ditch all entry level baseline testing, ditch those pesky rules and labs and such, and to just be "the one and only sole expert in the universe" to train a few soldiers who were pointedly (ironically) thought to be NOT psychic so he could 'train' them). This was part of the idea for the method you see that they had to believe in him and the method utterly and nothing else.

He had an idea for a method, much like his former cult had a method, for making people psychic. Except it didn't exist. But he wanted it to exist. He wanted to be the one that would make up a way to make it happen. And since his friend was in charge he got funding and permission to make one up, so then it would exist, and this was constantly 'sold' long before it did exist to higher-ups. (There are many amusing stories in the meantime of his occasional social jaunts with people where he'd tell them about the uniforms he had planned for his people. This man invented Babalon 5's Psi Corps before they did.)

So instead of learning about psi as a practical matter and instead of just sitting down and doing it to test baseline talent, and then doing it A LOT and properly to learn and get better, which is how the first group worked, for that second group of guys in 'training' it was all about the expert 'trainer' and all about the 'method' (insert trademark here).

Many personal reports on the training experience make it clear that Joan Crawford had nothing on this man for mommy-dearest behavior. What many people don't seem to understand is that any human being, including soldiers in intell, can be cult indoctrinated. Especially in that environment. And it worked pretty damn well for most of them.

And what they came out of that believing, with utter sincerity, as they all told me in 95, and some in 96 and 97, was that what mattered was the trainer, and the method. The science guys had freaked out during the program because the latter team ditched the doubleblind, but bah, what do white coats know, they couldn't stand them anyway because during that training, there was much dissension between their guru and those guys in the lab. As Schnabel (of whom I'm not a fan, though I do like his writing style. Darn it. Don't you hate it when you dislike someone's behavior but you think they're talented? Why can't all jerks be ugly and unskilled?) reported in his book, when the unit eventually closed, they found literally years of fed-x reports sent the unit -- unopened. They knew everything already, you see. They had the only expert in the world! They had the only method that mattered. They didn't need no steenkin' science or anybody else's input at all (even though it was being done specifically to support their work).

They were unfamiliar with published science directly about the topic that even I as a laymen knew. They were unaware that the results in their own unit were so dismal that most serious work shifted to viewers in the science lab instead, so while (as Schnabel reported) they were doing second jobs and hobbies during their shifts, the real work was being done by people who'd actually do real RV and _could_ do it well enough. How embarrassing, right. It was humiliating and infuriating when they learned this stuff well after the fact -- sometimes because I learned it since I knew the other people, and came back to them with it and they went "No way! Wasn't so!" but then found out it was, when talking to those people. This was well into the period when they'd established themselves as experts for the current universe on all things RV.

Of course, from the day they were public, their stories slightly shifted, shifted, this little rough edge got smoothed out, that ignorance got resolved, this logical fallacy got corrected, this totally wrong fact got revised, until by that time, they were almost completely different presentations about the topic than they began with anyway. Ah, the internet. What they believed and said initially has pretty little relationship to what they did down the road. There are exceptions. But experts Q-Y-X in particular, having all seriously lost track of Truth to varying degrees for varying reasons, were all especially expert and fluent at this. It's glossy and slick now. It's so frackin' convincing in person that even if you were present and KNOW something is an outright falsehood you're questioning yourself, they are SO sincere and believable. People like that are dangerous, sheesh.


Bottom line, RV is an art performed within a science protocol. The art is "whatever people have been doing since the dawn of time" most of which has been drowned in BS and cults and fraud and marketing and more. There's been methods even since before Silva's Mind Control psi method decades ago. Everybody's got one. The irony about "the method" these guys learned is that most of its primary elements were already in use by lab psychics for quite a long time in some cases, before he just happened to wrap it into his method because he being a lab psychic also knew that. So the things most lab psychics actually learned anyway, because they were historical precedent and basic good practice, were much of it. It wasn't nearly as exclusive, aside from here's a package paradigm with a label on it, as it seemed. That didn't keep variations on it from costing people 10 grand or more years later...

The science protocol is what was truly new to the world. It is what resulted in the highest % of accuracy in the lab under the most stringent controls of any kind of psi study in history. Which is not an overwhelming % but is replicable and is statistically significant. And it didn't start out as it ended, the protocol evolved as anything in science does, it was radically different (tighter) in '96 than in '76 for example.

And of course it depends on what you're studying. At this point psi is so over-proven compared to anything else (see Dr. Utts' paper in '91 Statistical Science journal, Replication and Meta-Analysis in Parapsychology, where she evidences that psi has better data than even medical studies considered so overwhelmingly evidenced they were stopped for humane reasons...) few would bother spending the non-existent funding to re-prove it all over again -- so a lot of the study for the 20 years of stargate was on details.

95% of the program's paperwork is and will always be classified. 5% of the file drawer dregs was intentionally reviewed and released to the public so the CIA could see what became of its minor efforts to further stick a fork in things.


I think this is probably best summed up by a conversation I had with (the late) Mario Truzzi one day (I miss him). We were debating something about research and I said, put it on paper, show me even one damn thing you can say about research RV that you doubt, I want to know, I want to find it or find out why it hasn't been resolved, I will push on this, I want every fair argument there is, and anything I get from alleged skeptics, they are morons. You're not a moron, so you give me the truth, what is weak and why. He said, oh there's nothing like that anymore. It has more than evidenced there's something to it. But what he doubted, it turns out, was RV as it was sold in public. He went to the annual RV conferences because he thought it was an awesome stitch for a sociologist, like way fun. Better than a zoo I guess.

He says, "One signature. That's all it would have taken. One signature and these guys would have never said anything to anybody. Instead they're all over TV and the radio and magazines telling the world they're experts at RV and 'teaching' RV" -- to exclude the doubleblind, and often feedback, either but especially both of which make it a joke -- "but only ONE signature would have stopped it all. And the CIA made it public and oh so very conveniently "loosed" these guys on the world. To go forth as experts and promote their way to the world." It was that part that he was massively skeptical about. Especially since it turns out he knew the latter part of the program's history some noted above. I said, "Oh." And here I'd thought I was going to have a big argument about science.

There is a lot more to this... I swear, I should write a freaking book about it, I have a huge encyclopedic outline, I have three people I admire and who are big names in that world willing to write an intro/afterword/whatever for me, but it's one of those things that I just burned out so badly on the topic I can barely function around it. I'm just so cynical.

At one point I left that field entirely for 4 years and when I came back, thinking I'd got it to a point online that things would be really good by then, it was worse than ever, I couldn't believe it. After a year of not being able to get what I wanted from an email group, which wanted to grow too much but didn't want to truly explore enough, I joined some others and founded a free public project to help people of all ideals, doctrines and dogmas and methods get together and talk about stuff, and get some private or public online practice in until they can find a better more in-person way to work, called TKR. At the time there was not a single public place where you wouldn't be deleted or even mocked by the people running it, there wasn't any source of info that wasn't someone who wanted your money and a lot of it, so it was a big deal to have. It's almost hilariously sad how infighting-political any topic can be. But of course, the infamous personas I noted above and their behavior and their sucky anti-training (people are LESS dangerous to secrets the more 'official training' they have in psi from ex-intell people, isn't that an amazing coincidence?) caused much of it.

I've had very little to do with the project for a long time, which is killing it in a way, but I've had a difficult time getting my psychology back into a non-burned-out zone even though it's been some years now. I really need to take time this spring for more programming to update it and maybe to bring in some new people, since many of the other staff have suffered some of the same curve I have, or have simply moved on and got a life. It is very difficult to find staff for the project because first, the intell guys seduce nearly everybody and it's like you can't trust anybody to be immune to it until they've already been through that cycle, after which they're usually cynical and don't want to be part of anything. Second, psi is associated with psychological instability for some fairly good reasons in terms of percentages, and just when you think someone is reasonable and might do they go wild hair and start ranting about something that makes you realize they're not nearly as stable as you hoped. (It's not the topic. It's how the rant is done. Few people could out-weird me for topic!) Everyone ELSE has decided they're omniscient and if you have money, they'll sell you a seminar... Sigh...

Many of the people in the field are good, though. I met my two best friends in the world via RV, and several other good friends, and there are many truly good people in that project. I wouldn't take back the experience, even though ironically it led me in great part back to a practice I'd let go of but during one experimental project came to realize actually meant more to me. I'll return to it someday, if I live long enough and get enough time to re-focus on it at some point. I've had some truly amazing experiences with it, although some were during psi, not sessions fairly classified as RV.

Have any of them been mentioned here, btw? I'm begging! Hug!

Probably all of them at some point. I will not name names or answer/agree to guesses. It's likely relatively obvious to anybody who knows the field.

Note: 'Star Gate' is a term retroactively applied to the CIA's selective compilation of a group of a past projects that focused on psychic research primarily but not limited to remote viewing. The very last of those projects which were publicly known was called Star Gate which is where the term came from. Currently if you inquire into records for military research into psi I'm pretty sure you will be redirected to Star Gate. There is no evidence that the CIA's compilation of all those known projects actually includes all the projects which may be related to the topic, but now that it's been repackaged like this, probably nothing else will be found.

I can tell this is way too long, it'll let me post but it won't let me edit, so I hope I didn't screw it up. I don't know why the char count thing doesn't work for me except in edit.

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 09:47 PM


Thanks for sharing that, xavi. It was full of emotional power. I tend to think something extremely strange happened to Travis and crew, but ultimately, of course, it's hard to say. It's also hard to totally trust hypnotic regression as most now agree. But, dang, that was pretty intense!! I was there with him!

edit on 27-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 09:50 PM
I feel like the part Vallee had to keep to himself might have been related to some kind of occult or ceremonial work he discovered or learned about. His interdimensional hypothesis combined with all the reading he was doing in the early 70s about WW II-era magic seems like a potential signpost.

Like an above poster mentioned, the intersection of occult and UFO studies is like a gore point or blender where both camps feel challenged to make everthing fit "a theory" .

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 10:26 PM
reply to post by RedCairo

That. Was. Astounding. I totally feel your truth. And you don't have to name names. I got at least two, almost probably three. Maybe four I hope. I'll be rereading it more than once and focusing on details more.

One is very important to my own research and also the most mysterious to develop, um, counter-intel on let's say. If I'm correct, I have much experience with members of the cult he originated in. I love those members and ex-members as people, but am passionately disgusted by their corrupt leadership. Their leadership knows who I am and they don't like me either. If they feel threatened, they bite rather viciously, I know that.

And: Haha I know exactly what you mean--I bet most do--about hating to admire someone's talent whom you don't like as a person. I think most of mine are writers, too. Hee-larious.

Thank You, RC! I think you are amazing, and you've given me more in one post than my feebleness has been able to accomplish in 3+ years of research. Not to mention the wisdom and sincere goodness that radiates from you.

It's like I hit the lottery or something. Gotta step outside for a smoke and let all that sink in a little.

edit on 27-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 10:34 PM

What if "what you want to 'matter' to you" is seeing the truth? What if what "matters" most to the person doing the remote viewing is being certain of what they 'see'?

Lewis Carroll -- damn it -- I knew that! Sorry. Long day! thanks.

I can't really answer that in this thread because it would take it off topic. I waxed on about RV intell personas to GUT because a) it's his thread and b) it overlaps into UFOlogy some of them/it and c) it is a rather clear example of little tiny control systems as individuals, and then as a larger group of them. But any more on the topic is kind of off-topic. Feel welcome to start a thread and point me to it.

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 10:40 PM
reply to post by RedCairo

Wow. Just wow.

Excellent post. I, like Gut, need to read that again, and likely reread it and take notes!

If I could star you more than once I would.


posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 10:40 PM
double post

edit on 27-1-2014 by CirqueDeTruth because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 10:40 PM
Triple post

Apologies. My fault. I know my mouse is screwy.

edit on 27-1-2014 by CirqueDeTruth because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 11:06 PM

As for Moore, well even he may be accurate here, particularly if he has no apparent interest in what he describes.

Though, he may want some of the heat off of himself.

But I do buy this

I will be glad to peruse this info

Maybe my "sniffer" is off on this one, but i believe Moore for the most part. I'm pretty sure he painted himself somewhat whiter than his dirty hands would suggest, but for the most part his story checks pretty well against known facts. Greg Bishop--for what it's worth--buys most of it, too. And William did stand front and center and confess. Takes some balls to do that in front of the traditionally-vicious ufology "hardliners" crowd.

That particular tidbit about Vallee and Hynek I'll have to reserve some judgement on, but I will definitely be looking for any corroborating info.

edit on 27-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 11:36 PM

As far as I can tell Jacques theory goes something along the lines of: Myth affects Society affects Mythology which then affects Reality (beliefs). Jacques Vallee--as we've seen here--has spoken in this context of the "manipulation of belief systems."

A bit late to chime in quoting from a page far behind, but this did rang a bell.

I've often pondered about the power of religion and rituals over people, since I've been brought up to be as tolerant and open minded as possible towards people and their uniqueness/differences, so I've always been trying to understand irrationality in some religious fanatics or any type of people that I don't actually quite understand (which still means I accept) in terms of lifestyle and world views. I don't say this in a negative way, so bear with me.

It's all about each person's own point of view, what he believes in and the dictionary he's using to describe it. The more you believe in something, the more it becomes a reality for you, even if it's the most absurd thing for the person next door. The more people you have to share your belief with, the closer it comes to becoming a mutual truth though. Here's a very simple example for such a social truth - money - it's paper, yet, we as a society give it meaning other than it's actual properties. And here I'm giving an example of a fake social truth (and I believe there are real ones). Which reminds me that humanitarians have been worried about rainforests, while the rainforests are actually slowly killing off humanity, providing it with resources to create money over which to kill and die. Anyway, the profound jokes aside.

I think that an important (probably even practical enough to have been already studied by the CIA and other alphabet agencies which we know has been done for a fact) part of the whole picture is the power of the mind. Maybe the key is understanding the trickery by looking outside of the box in which both the viewer and the trickster are located. If you look from such a point of view, what would be your first observation logically? That a consciousness is needed for the trickery. Is consciousness itself the trickster or is there this epic white bearded four-eyed new version of god - a programmer? It's not yet (or will it be ever be) known and we're surely still far from knowing. So what we could do to be productive is focus on the consciousness and mind-self-trickery part. Manifesting high strangeness, including UFOs? Why not.

Most of us here have watched the recent documentaries, some have even read further down the rabbit hole, and I mean specifically regarding reality, consciousness, matter, etc. Until I've came upon this thread I've been imagining an infinite net of connected bubbles with universes/realities held inside them. Each universe, being slightly different, the whole infinite (that's a paradox lol) net representing all of the possible interactions between the atoms in the ever existing universe/s.

Well it may be much simpler than this. Think fractals, a repeated pattern of creating shapes but with varying results when looked from a distance. Now think of each atom in the Universe, including the ones in your body, their actions and interactions each and every second. Well it's not possible to think about that but at least try and grasp the weight of the impossibility... In the end, the body is a universe on its own, made up of universes, resigning in a larger social system (universe) of people, making up the whole of mankind, and an enormous number of other universes riding along on this other system (universe) we tend to call Earth... And so on, from the Solar system to the known Universe and beyond. In the previous sentences replace universe with program code, and you'll get my idea. The script and building blocks are present and they're a constant repetition everywhere we turn (1.618, to mention one). My only worry is when I put myself in the shoes of a hypothetical programmer/creator of this complex program and ask myself this question - why am I doing this. I'd do it first because I can and mainly out of curiousity. Not the divine, ultra-profound experiment we all so badly need it to be in order not to feel unimportant.

This is all speculation and thoughts thrown out there, thanks for the provocation everyone, GUT, gonna u2u in the next couple of days about something i wanna discuss with you, great thread!

edit on 27-1-2014 by ch1n1t0 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 11:48 PM


I also think y'all are closer to the same page than you might think.

Oh I agree. It's just that on forums "me too" is sorta pointless so one mostly tends to talk about what they disagree about or just have extra to wax on about. :-)

So: PLEASE elaborate on these intelligence folk and how you perceive them.

Run, don't walk. There, I'm done.

Well crap, someone will probably beat me up over that as being hyperbolic and vague I bet. So: *amazing post*

Aha. I think I know of who you speak. The stuff linking him to Snowden was put out by one occultist. I'm not sure of his intended outcomes, but it was remarkable how one person could influence the memetic zeitgeist.

There are those who have a full-bore range of symptoms and are literally not sane anymore, but not in the ordinary ways we recognize, although some borderline schizophrenics are similar. They have so lost the feeling of truth psychologically that subconsciously they overcompensate -- one becomes immensely over-pedantic, with technojargon and obsessive detail because "accuracy" is the best we can do in our flotsam-jetsom world to mimic "truth." Which it is not. But you see them lost in ever-more obsession on that focus because they just... can't... feel it. They lost their rudder... they lost their way.

So how does one get the feeling of truth?

posted on Jan, 27 2014 @ 11:59 PM
reply to post by ch1n1t0

Thanks for posting, ch1n, I truly got a LOT of great stuff out of that! Look forward to your u2u and seeing more of you on the boards, you are too quiet! This thread is "growing" me. How cool. I'm very grateful for all who are making me think and expand.

edit on 28-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 28 2014 @ 12:09 AM
reply to post by ch1n1t0

Not the divine, ultra-profound experiment we all so badly need it to be in order not to feel unimportant.

This seems to be a defining trait of most beings, whether 'human' or 'trickster'. It appears that humans
and tricksters are co-dependent.. most humans seem to want to be defined by their relationship with
some god or divine principle.. and the 'gods' (tricksters) want to be defined by their relationship with

Perhaps a big round of hugs between humans and tricksters and we can all get on with our lives and
go down to the pub together and have a pint.

As far as divine geometry.. that is indeed fascinating..

here's one that a lot of mystics are fascinated by:

Pentagram within a pentacle & Golden Mean

Pentagram within a pentacle within a pentacle ad-infinitum, and includes
the golden mean.. some people think this might be a good reference to a
'primal form' ... math is definitely baked into our reality in interesting ways.

You might also be interested in universal Darwinism -- (universes evolve
like living things..)

Universal Darwinism

I do like the concept, that nothing exists in a vacuum.. but only has meaning

Thanks for the thought provoking reply.


posted on Jan, 28 2014 @ 12:11 AM
Yes, Jacques Vallee makes sense when he says these entities are interdimensional beings because they are interdimensional. To make things less confusing we have to add the label "alien" or "ufo" in order to clarify what we are talking about. For instance, ghostly phenomenon is interdimensional.
edit on 28-1-2014 by foxykittybite because: typo

posted on Jan, 28 2014 @ 12:25 AM

So how does one get the feeling of truth?

Hmmn. I guess... be still, and be quiet, and be 'centered' and just 'be' for awhile. I'm not any expert.

I feel it in my gut and in my chest a little bit, much moreso if I've been doing more meditative/energy work recently.

I had a high-psi period many years ago where I could feel the sense of truth so clearly that I would play with it and go through business letters written by people I worked with and actually call out, these two words were inserted after, this sentence was restructured, this word was added by someone who was not the author, there was a whole piece deleted out of here. I got good (as in 'agog') feedback about it to indicate there was some validity to the feelings. I called it 'the red thread of truth.' That was kind of fun, but was a temporary thing.

I had an interesting dream about Truth once, on my nearly inactive old Red Cairo blog, here
I'm not catholic so I'm always fascinated when I dream about nuns which I sometimes do. This was actually specifically about losing the feel of truth and trying to find it.

Years later I waxed on again about Truth on another blog, but I don't think I'm any expert on "finding" it. Only on being able to allow it when it's already there. If it were already truly lost from someone I think it'd probably take some re-education.

When I'm doing throat chakra work I tend to get truth-challenged. I have to go back and actually correct posts and emails because I find that I exaggerate and add stupid little things that aren't so, it's like I have to really pay attention to myself and be really careful to have total integrity about everything that leaves my mouth or my typing. It's hard, like all the sudden there's all these huge temptation-needs to just add this or exaggerate that. Later it seems ridiculous but at the time it's really difficult.

I don't know if that's how it would feel for people who have become pathological liars through losing all fundamental sense of truth. I don't know if they'd be too far gone to make it happen. I'm pollyannic and tend to feel nobody's too gone to save if they want to be and want to work for it, but who knows. I suspect it's a very serious thing almost like a drug addiction and would take some seriously hard work to deal with. It isn't about communication, really, it's about something deeper, communication is just the side effect.

A person would just have to start by literally monitoring everything they say, everything they write, and really THINKING: is this true? Entirely? Are you sure? And just feeling for it, intuitively. At that level they'd have to ask, about everything, as part of a therapy. Pathological liars tend to believe themselves the minute they say something or even think it, which is part of why they're so mind-bogglingly convincing. I think there is a profound amount of fear present which must cause the behavior in the first place, that eventually devolves to that larger situation.

I think when people read about UFOlogy or whatever, "feeling for the sense of truth" in what they're reading is the only reasonable way they're likely to find what makes sense for them. Otherwise it's all just a bunch of chaos.
edit on 28-1-2014 by RedCairo because: added url

edit on 28-1-2014 by RedCairo because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 28 2014 @ 12:41 AM
reply to post by lostgirl

Lost girl,

I have a deep fondness for you.. your thirst for finding the truth
makes me glad to be alive.. that's how I feel about all genuine
truth seekers.. they make me get all weepy..

I wanted to mention something to consider about the 'truth',
which RC definitely touched upon..

Now I'm going to use a highly contentious example... but it
shows the principle so well that I want to put my neck on
a chopping block an use it.

We can certainly see tricksters as parasites. That is one
vector (approach).

we can certainly see tricksters as symbiotes. That is one
vector (approach).

we can certainly see tricksters in an us vs. them way.

we can certainly see tricksters in a partnership with us.

So.. which of these approaches are the RIGHT one?

Why none of them.. of course..

Why all of them.. of course..

and other wonders we can't even write down or conceptualize.

Now as humans, we want to find meaning.. and as RC mentioned,
if you want to get 'good' within a rigid testing yourself framework
(she used Remote Viewing as an example) you have to really want
a set of results.. you have to basically choose which universe you
want to be a resident of.. which feedback loop you wish to actualize.

You have to choose a context.. and stick with that one context..

But that doesn't make 'it' or 'anything' 'true'.

Maddening, isn't it?

But perhaps we aren't looking at this the way we could be..

Earlier today I was in a funk.. I get in funks once in a while
too.. so I spent 3 hours non-stop focusing my intent on a problem
that was kicking my ass.

I wanted to know, why one particular point of view existed.. what
was causing it.. I wanted to know what collaboration between a
human and a trickster was causing life to unfold the way it was

I found a block of frozen time.. I followed that back.. until very
strangely.. I broke through a 'tear' into a realm where sentient
and intelligent Komodo dragons were seeking 'god' by forming
a partnership with an extra-dimensional spirit.. and the extra-dimensional
spirit they had found and were interacting with was an ATS member..

This 'trickster species' was in a 'space'.. and they were interacting with
a chunk of 'our space'. There was also ANOTHER trickster species in a
'space' (looked like old Asian ladies with almond eyes wearing a weird
visor). They were ALSO interacting with a chunk of 'our space' and they
were fascinated with the same ATS member.

Then I realized that humans are just ANOTHER 'trickster species'. We
all confuse the hell out of those other species just like they confuse
the hell out of us..

Now. there is really a point here... and no I'm not on peyote.. nor
mentally ill that I know.. this is the sort of thing that shamans
do sometimes..

what I learned from this.. is that there are MANY contexts out there..
minds.. spririts.. dimensions interacting .. and all of them are
various ' truths' .. but these truths only make sense contextually..
and context is highly dependent upon which contexts are interacting
in which way with other contexts.

It's all dynamic and constantly moving..

Did that make any sense at all? it did to me. LOL.

One more thing..

For me personally at least.. the most precious 'truths'
that I have.. are ones that seem to apply to ALL WORLDS.

Here are mine:

1) Raw awareness exists.
2) Form exists in infinite forms.
3) Our intention lets us choose how awareness flows through us
and interacts with form in all it's variety.
4) don't get hung up on any particular expression of awareness.
5) don't get hung up on any particular expression of form.
6) don't get hung up on any particular interaction between awareness and form.
7) have fun

Now those aren't necessarily ACTUALLY universal.. but those personal truths
of mine are like a swiss army knife..

In the end, 'truth' is what has high utility for YOU personally.. and if others
like it .. all the better.. but other people's search for truth.. is what makes
them feel alive.. it really doesn't matter how much utility their truths have
on any absolute scale.. so long as contextually for them they are important
and workable.

I also want to say, that I'm not claiming any great cosmic unfolding here
with that 3 hour experience.. but my mind is trying to put words to something
that is really quite beyond me to describe.. but I think that I got *something*

Did you get anything from that?

Love you.


posted on Jan, 28 2014 @ 01:04 AM
Might as well throw this in.

Professor Pan's Chaotik Mailing List & Meme Propagation Network

Memetic Dispatch 6/4/97
"Language is a virus."
--William S. Burroughs
"This stuff is black, black, black!"
--Admiral Stansfield Turner
Former Director, Central Intelligence Agency


The Professor would like to apologize for his long absence, and to allay any consternation this caused among the many subscribers to his chaotik mailings. Indeed, as many of you have suspected, the Professor's arcane studies led him into a deep thicket of dark and unspeakable workings, which he managed to escape only by an especially fortunate act of Providence. He has confirmed that the brethren of the Dark Lodges are working feverishly in these climactic days before the dawn of the New Aeon, and their fiendish creations, once confined to the nether realms except when loosed by dark magic, are now roaming freely among us.

When I asked what message he wished me to deliver to his faithful subscribers, he replied simply: "Pray. And watch closely the shadows." And he fell back into sleep.

While he recuperates, he has given me the task of organizing his notes and spreading the memes to the recipients of his dispatch. I can only dispense of fragments of his work; there is much that I cannot decipher. I have ascertained that his studies led him into an encounter with the qliphotic entities commonly known as the "Men In Black." It is ironic that a film of this name ( is soon to be released as popular entertainment, while the true MIBs--creations far more malevolent than any Hollywood hack could hope to conjure--cackle with delight at their trivialized depictions. As one of the Professor's NSA contacts once told him: "All of this Dark Skies, Independence Day crap plays right into their [Black Lodge's] hands. The real abductions, mutilations, all the demonic infestations, get branded as the rantings of deluded X-Files fans. The idiots scream about a government coverup, when most of the people in the government are scared #less at what's happening. Those that aren't in collusion with the sick f---ers, that is."

The Professor has recommended one book in particular as an accurate depiction of the MIBs and their ilk--"Casebook on the Men in Black" by Jim Keith, published by IllumiNet Press (ISBN 1-881532-11-9). Keith chronicles the history of the MIBs, from their early descriptions in the chronicles of European witchery to their manifestations in contemporary UFOlogy.

There are many interesting anecdotes, but a few will have to suffice, as I must tend to the Professor, and perform the enchantments for him before the setting of the sun.

From pages 23-24:

"[H.P.] Lovecraft, although ostensibly writing fiction and privately disavowing any belief in the supernatural, is revered by many modern occultist groups for his extraordinary otherworldly visions. Some of these groups, such as the Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis and the two orders of the Starry Wisdom Sect that I know of, consider his fictional forays to be true representations of other dimensions, and have patterned their rituals and cosmology after Lovecraft's fantastical visions."

"It is interesting that Frank Belknap Long...a well-known writer of dark fantasy, recalls that Lovecraft met the young L. Ron Hubbard at a science fiction fan gathering in New York in the 1930s. According to Long, Lovecraft remarked that the enthusiastic young Hubbard would go far." (For more on L. Ron, see the superb page by Blue Resonant Human at:

The Professor also recommends the writings of Fortean investigator John Keel to those who seek to shine light on the mystery. Before he left for the encounter which nearly destroyed him, the good Professor said to me:

"It's all beginning to come together. The shift from pervasive belief in the ETH to the understanding of the transdimensionality of these soulless beings is beginning to occur. People are waking up to the machinations of the Dark forces. The history, from John Dee up through Parsons and Crowley, is coming to Light. And it's happening just in time, because Choronzon's cold fingers are prying open the Gate, and it's about to burst wide open."
"Bring the Light to the people," he said, as he drifted back into sleep.

I am madly deciphering his notes. I hope that I can put them into some semblance of order before it is too late. As I write, I am watching the Professor. In his slumber, he is obviously disturbed. Whether or not it's a result of the experiments that were conducted upon him years ago, or whether he is engaged in some form of battle that I cannot comprehend, I know not.

Those of you with any clues to the Dark Workings in the final days of this Aeon, please forward them to me, and perhaps they will contribute to my understanding of the Professor's notes. Until then, I leave you with another fragment from his notebook that may illuminate our present situation.

"A large part of the available UFO literature is closely linked with mysticism and the metaphysical. It deals with subjects like mental telepathy, automatic writing, and invisible entities, as well as phenomena like poltergeist manifestations and possession... Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demoniac possession and psychic phenomena which has long been known to theologians and parapsychologists."
Lynn E. Catoe Senior Bibliographer UFOs and Related Subjects: An Annotated Bibliography compiled by the Library of Congress for the Air Force Office of Scientific Research

Professor Pan's Chaotik Mailing List & Meme Propagation Network
To Join: Send the words "meme-me" in the message
Submissions welcomed!

edit on 12014f3101America/Chicago9 by 1ofthe9 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 28 2014 @ 06:58 AM
reply to post by RedCairo

Psychiatry-The creation of all singing all dancing poppets and the endless hours of fun that can be had from them, known in Haiti as voodoo

edit on Kam13127vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday2831 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 28 2014 @ 09:37 AM
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

It's almost as if the context is a universe in itself, part of a multi-verse of awareness centers. Each of us is the god of our own context, and the trickster of someone else's context. We cross the border between our context and someone else's, psychically, during extreme liminality such as missing time. Then we come back to find that the interaction has caused an evolution in both. Heck, that could be what the entire 'control system' is about. We are pulling each other up by our bootstraps.

edit on 28-1-2014 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

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