Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

reply to post by RedCairo


I agree with Gut....Amazing post, but I must ask why not name names? At least one of these people are STILL making money selling RV dvds and tours. I will...Major Ed Dames, The late Ingo Swann, Hal Puthoff, and probably Russell Targ (who happens to be my favorite of the bunch.) Honestly the only one that seems to me to be full of "it" is Dames...two years ago I heard an old interview with Russell Targ and got very interested in RV. I downloaded, for free...(I can't believe he charges 200+ dollars for RV dvds! Who buys them?) Ed Dames training dvds.....I'm not going to derail this thread...I'll just say that I know for a fact that the procedure CAN work, although I think we may be getting at something here to do with the control system for human consciousness as postulated by Vallee. Computer Scientist Vallee was actually somewhat involved in RV at SRI back in the 70's...This is during the ARPANET days. Dames is brief in his explanation of how it works but basically he says we get the information from "Unconscious" not "The Collective Unconscious" just "unconscious." Signal to noise ratio. Conscious mind is the noise, only your unconscious can "pick up" the information related to the signal....Oh hell just listen to Vallee , I think a lot is revealed about his Control System in this speech... Did he just change "control" system to "missing" system?
I will link to this page because I think it is an excellent criticism of the recent "debunking" attempt by National Geographic of ESP... Mysterious Universe on NatGeo ESP

reply to post by BlueMule


Yup. Im glad you followed the bread crumbs.
I didn't say that, to avoid coming across as a know it all shaman who is deluded into thinking he has all the answers.

Thanks much for your response.. I'm grateful.

Frankly, I'm having a long conversation with the koto dragon people...The Chinatown cyborgs and a star faring demons of the zodiac culture.

They are all annoyed that their spacetime seems overrun by evil and that God is nowhere to be found.

They have all observed balls of light acting with sentience...turning into various forms...

The Chinatown cyborgs send out A I probes in th o 'interspace'. The monitor lizards are a non tech society but born sorcerors. They are interested in interspace too...and can slightly pull a space like ours closer to that vector direction. The demon star traveller's don't care much about interspace but prefer telepathic contact..especially like poetry. Rumi is a favorite.

But the whole lot are very like us in their desire to find god and make their world a better place.

The dragons told me that a sphere is the most efficient shape for an X dim traveler to assume in terms of energy conservation.

Yes. Go get me an I love me jacket if you wish. But these guys are so interesting.

and for anyone who wants to say that I'm interacting with bits of myself....sure I am...
but that's all which exists...2 major poles of existence and all these selves...

and all these selves belong to all of us.

Don't throw rocks...almost nobody opens up to be scorned to this level. Lol.

reply to post by The GUT


Believe me; I make no claim, like Steve Greer, that aliens are necessarily all good and saviors…some universal good guys. Sure they may be and we all hope they are but we don’t know for sure, its only faith, since Greer has no certain knowledge either.

My personal belief is that a person has to save themselves, no God, alien or anyone can do it but ones own effort.
Sure there may be some hidden helper, but it's hidden.

RedCairo
"GUT: PLEASE elaborate on these intelligence folk and how you perceive them."

RedCairo: Run, don't walk. There, I'm done.

I did for a few minutes once, then I reached down and affirmed I still had some and turned around and ran even harder back at 'em. Foolish, probably. But what the hey...or is that "hay." Whichever.

Do you have any thoughts on why a guy like Hal Puthoff would have an interest in attempting to inject the SERPO meme within the ufological community through various internet forums?

Hal Puthoff & John Alexander w/ "Mind-Bent" Object

While Puthoff was outed in participating in that charade, he somehow manages to shield himself better than some of the others. I wonder what the power structure between, say, Kit Green and Hal Puthoff is? Is it a level playing field of mutual friendship/professional respect, or has Hal managed to use his facility as a "mage"--using his experience as a Scientology "Clear" to have exerted some dominance over Kit? Or is it vice-versa? I have pondered that more than once.

Kit Green, Pat Price, Hal Puthoff

Speaking of folk who like uniforms, Scientology sure does:

Scientology Sea Org

Scientology Dictator David Miscavige All Dressed Up

I have some info somewhere, where some folk from Scientology are rather peeved that Puthoff & Swann (both highly "accomplished" Scientologists) stole the remote viewing concept without giving credit. Pat Price, we will note, was a Scientologist, too.

Puthoff & Swann

Hal Puthoff was raised by his mommy, btw. I wonder what kind of personality she was and how that affected him? Not to get all Freudian or nothin'...just connecting dots.

reply to post by BlueMule


Imagine if all sentient beings projected their crazed childlike narcissistic craving want to be United with God crazy 'dark sides' into other people's spaces/universes because they have crapped up their own world's like we have crapped up ours on all possible levels? That it's really a cry for help?

What if the moment of maximum solidity of phenomenon was when both parties. ..The other culture and our own were strongly syncing their probes towards each other other?

Maybe the solution to all this madness is just education.

Just educate those other cultures most interested in us to stop sending their psychic angst to us and we will stop dumping our trash on them?

With this theoretical model...what we refer to as tricksters especially the nasty ones would be one of their probes being fed our own attention and worship energy..Their crap would usually cause an immune reaction from our crap.

If this is true, no wonder we can't understand or control these mutated beasties.

Education and love. That should do it.

Yes...off the scale theoretical.
Now to implement a solution. .
A fun challenge.

KellyPrettyBear

What if the moment of maximum solidity of phenomenon was when both parties. ..The other culture and our own were strongly syncing their probes towards each other other?

Then perhaps moments of cosmic synchronicity would be points in space-time where all the probes can most easily line up with each other or toward each other. For example, extremely rare astrological alignments or other events that attract everyone's attention. Large scale events such as 9/11 do seem to bring our consciousness into synch, according to the findings of the Global Consciousness Project.

reply to post by BlueMule


I don't know.

Enjoy those words when you can...lol.

what I'm calling interspace is like a transit area where different quantum realities bounce off each other and influence each other.

A common cultural referent might be the Australian native concept of the dreamtime.

MAYBE there once was a time when reality was slightly more malleable.

But we've lost our shamans. .The mediators of the inter web.

I have no idea what may cause large tears..no idea what can turn psychic probes into physical reality

Now small tears. ..not so hard appatently. But I think that when a being has frozen / missing time that the beings in question act as a door to keep the door private.

I'd never followed a tear before.

Again very theotetical.

Hi GUT,

I've always felt L Ron Hubbard's military background gets swept under the rug when people write about Scientology's transgressions. Its so easy to see them (Scientologists) as a money-hungry civilian cult, people tend to forget Hubbard's military grooming. Is Scientology a CIA funded experiment in secular-style religion, with some secret society add-ons for occult and mind control purposes?

Swann, Price, Puthoff were all accomplished Scientology "Higher ups", and Vallee never seems to take them to task for their cultish proclivities in his writing. Vallee had no problem disparaging Marshall Applewhite and his followers, I guess they were a safe target back in the Messengers of Deception days. In Forbidden Science 2, Vallee name-checks Jim Jones, Applewhite, even Castaneda gets a nod, Hubbard is only briefly mentioned, in relation to Parsons/JPL, but Scientology itself seems to have gotten a "pass". And if Vallee's intention in writing Messengers of Deception was to help sound an alarm against cults, how could he go so easy on Scientology?

nitro67
I agree with Gut....Amazing post, but I must ask why not name names?

Well, because it's rude: my goal was not to attack them as individuals but to answer GUT's question a bit brutally is all.

And because readers ought to, if they care at all, have to do the slightest amount of work themselves.

None of the people I listed worked on the science side, which excludes two of your names.

All of the people listed were part of the last-wave of recruits into the DIA unit of the star gate program.

They're all still making money selling to the public.

C'est la vie. I've paid my dues and those of many others I think, I've posted and ranted for years and years (like 18) in places with much more focus on the topic, I've made websites and interviews and forums and online practice areas, I've helped all the legit people I've met however I could, I've done endless reading of research on the subject and talking to researchers and to people in the former program and digging up even old layman stuff -- I've done more work and helped others with more of the work than any three dozen people with any sanity. Now, it just is what it is. I don't owe the field or the public anything further on this... not a thing.

I don't normally even talk about this anymore, even in online areas I own dedicated to the subject. GUT caught me at a weak moment is all, dammit. Later I really wished I could delete it but people had already responded and it was past time.

*

If you like Russ you might like the RV Expo, an event a project I'm in did some years ago, it has some custom videos that are fun and some chat and text interviews from a variety of people I consider legitimate in the field. This website and the projects on it (most private, couple public) are mine by the way. 2009 RV Expo

I know for a fact that the procedure CAN work

This is like someone coming up to you and telling you, "You can breathe." And you go hey... hey... holy crap! I can breathe! You're amazing! Here's $10,000!" Any procedure, A-N-Y procedure, can work for you to acquire psi data because every human being is inherently part of some kind of energetic system and has a nervous system that makes it possible.

Whether their psychology, their intellect, their actual nervous system, their belief systems, support this -- and will continue to support it when cognitive dissonance comes in and kicks the crap out of them a bit later, because it will -- and whether they will choose to invest the almost ridiculous amount of dedication time and focus necessary for real skill -- is another story.

There are endless numbers of "methods" in the world to give you a structure for doing this. THEY ALL WORK. It's about you, not the method. RV wasn't named for or about the art, which was dawn-of-time old, but about the science context.

The best way of sucking people in though is letting them think it's the method, not them. Then they are beholden to the doctrine and to the guru for their sense of validation.

The 'art' of RV is any methodology you might choose that works best for you -- the question is not actually what works, because since you are inherently capable, any approach likely has some degree of potential, but the degree to which something works 'less' than other things for you. E.g. highly analytical processes or eye-visual processes will probably be very interfering, while altered state processes will likely be helpful (though not necessary). This is something that only doing it and then experimenting with different approaches will teach one and it's distinct to the individual.

Some people call the art 'the protocols.' The RV protocols as a formal term actually means the science context that provides the rules that help force the art into legitimacy: remove the room for fraud, delusion, accident, etc. The term's misused on purpose to dupe the public.

One of the reasons it's so easy to make marks of people in the field is because of the pervasive ignorance of nearly everyone about psi. Everyone thinks it's something special. We live and breathe this. You could make up some hokey pokey method (put your left leg in and shake it all about) and have some person attempt psi while doing it and chances are -- especially early when they're too clueless about it for their psychology to be evasive about the threat it poses to fundamental belief systems -- they're going to get at least some valid data. Then they're going to go, "Oh my god! I can breathe! You're a genius! This magic method works! Take my money."

I think we may be getting at something here to do with the control system for human consciousness as postulated by Vallee. Computer Scientist Vallee was actually somewhat involved in RV at SRI back in the 70's...This is during the ARPANET days.

You should read Vallee's book "Heart of the Internet." There's a page on it at Russell's site at www.espresearch.com...

Vallee suffered through the cult of 'est' all around him (it's in that book) which is one reason he's so aware of the topic.

I'm not actually pulling that off the top of my head, I'm still the webmaster for a few folks in the field from eons ago, most of whom do very little online ever. Despite I've not done that work for many years, they had so few demands I just kept them. Russ Targ, Charles Tart, and Joe McMoneagle. In previous centuries I also did some work for James Spottiswoode, Jessica Utts, Cognitive Sciences Laboratory, Esalen Research Center, and the Parapsychology Foundation. I consider all those sources to be valid.

Dames is brief in his explanation of how it works but

Sorry, my bias is too overwhelming. I will not discuss a single thing based on a quote from him. I think he should be in prison or worse. He is not only the least expert on the topic IMO for several reasons, and the most likely to F--- with every little detail to cause as much confusion and misconception and stupidity as possible in the listening public -- although any person can read and can pontificate other people who may know something, and be right about some things of course, which he does, don't think for a moment that the ability to blend truth into endless layers and years of lies somehow makes a person credible -- he is the most poisonously damaging source for the topic of RV in the history of it. I won't insult a field I've spent a big chunk of my life involved with by ignoring that, and being part of any conversation that grants him any credence. He doesn't deserve the recognition, he deserves a cell.

Nothing personal to you. There is an entire field full of people you know, many of whom really ARE experts, and you could probably ask any of them questions, or read their books if you wanted to know about the subject.

an excellent criticism of the recent "debunking" attempt by National Geographic of ESP... Mysterious Universe on NatGeo ESP

It's a given that none of the control systems in our world, even those mundane, want psi to be real or controllable. Our world runs on the ability of miserably bad people and miserably bad corporations and miserably bad governments to keep miserably bad secrets.

And if Vallee's intention in writing Messengers of Deception was to help sound an alarm against cults, how could he go so easy on Scientology?

Dozens if not hundreds of articles including extensive numbers of interviews with former members, including high up members, including adults and children kidnapped and imprisoned sometimes for years, including interviews talking about their infiltration into every major gov't organization and the 'proactively paranoid' stalker assault they carry out against anyone publicly maligning them. Vallee doesn't talk about it for the same reason most other people who aren't escapees or writing the articles don't.
www.villagevoice.com...

Is anybody salty enough with their physics knowledge to know what happens when meteoric atoms evaporate in our atmosphere? I am curious as to what happens with the subatomic particles. Higgs Boson?

ETA: This may be a good one for Red Cairo to look into. As I understand it, RV gurus can directly view atoms... I would be interested to know if our trickster may be nothing more than subatomic particles free floating in our atmosphere.

KellyPrettyBear
The dragons told me that a sphere is the most efficient shape for an X dim traveler to assume in terms of energy conservation.

Yes. Go get me an I love me jacket if you wish. But these guys are so interesting.

and for anyone who wants to say that I'm interacting with bits of myself....sure I am...
but that's all which exists...2 major poles of existence and all these selves...

and all these selves belong to all of us.

Don't throw rocks...almost nobody opens up to be scorned to this level. Lol.

Well, I do appreciate your honesty. But I have some questions. One being, who am I in this inner-opera lol?

The second is more penetrating: If you are talking to "bits" of yourself, then how do you flip it in the next post as if they are other autonomous cultures? It appears you are somewhat conflicted, Kelly:

Imagine if all sentient beings projected their crazed childlike narcissistic craving want to be United with God crazy 'dark sides' into other people's spaces/universes because they have crapped up their own world's like we have crapped up ours on all possible levels? That it's really a cry for help?

What if the moment of maximum solidity of phenomenon was when both parties. ..The other culture and our own were strongly syncing their probes towards each other other?

Maybe the solution to all this madness is just education.

Just educate those other cultures most interested in us to stop sending their psychic angst to us and we will stop dumping our trash on them?

With this theoretical model...what we refer to as tricksters especially the nasty ones would be one of their probes being fed our own attention and worship energy..Their crap would usually cause an immune reaction from our crap.

If this is true, no wonder we can't understand or control these mutated beasties.

It sounds, at least in the in the first instance, as if you are referring to Freudian and Jungian theory. Basically talking to yourself. If so, how in the world does that resolve to listening to you about some kind of cosmic knowledge? I don't really want an answer, but I'll be glad to participate in another thread. Make one por favor.

In other news: It's a Snow Day here in the mountains. Hope y'all are having a good one!

reply to post by The GUT


I have literally zero thoughts about that kind of stuff, as I know nothing about it. I recall Blue Brother had stuff about the "Aviary" on his website way back when that I think some of these guys were said to be part of. I am pretty disinterested in the topic as a whole I admit, so I've never really read much about it.

As for Puthoff, I don't know him personally. I have various ambivalences from a couple decades buried in the RV topic; I think he got away with a lot of stuff that was pretty unscientific, but he also did some good work, hence the ambivalence.

Regarding the whole scientology thing, yep everyone major in the research program initially (except Targ) was part of it and then everyone was not, when like many others they left the church in that era. Swann still had some talks he gave for the group in later years I think. (The viewers in the program were not part of it that I know of, except Price.)

Anybody who has not read Swann's papers on psi and the founding of RV might like them, at:
www.biomindsuperpowers.com...

To be fair GUT, in the cosmology my interworlds and inner self keep inflicting on me, I am the universe and vice-versa, the archetypal world is built out of me, and yet, it does have its own autonomy, places, peoples, etc. It is one of those seemingly contradictory elements of the esoteric that is probably a zen koan in and of itself.

reply to post by RedCairo


Wow, I am seriously impressed by your posts...you really know what you are talking about, and I thank you for clearing some things up regarding RV and some of those involved in the subject. Very happy to see you posting here and I do hope you continue to post your massive and illuminating responses! Thanks alot!

lakespirit
Swann, Price, Puthoff were all accomplished Scientology "Higher ups", and Vallee never seems to take them to task for their cultish proclivities in his writing. Vallee had no problem disparaging Marshall Applewhite and his followers, I guess they were a safe target back in the Messengers of Deception days. In Forbidden Science 2, Vallee name-checks Jim Jones, Applewhite, even Castaneda gets a nod, Hubbard is only briefly mentioned, in relation to Parsons/JPL, but Scientology itself seems to have gotten a "pass". And if Vallee's intention in writing Messengers of Deception was to help sound an alarm against cults, how could he go so easy on Scientology?

That is the most penetrating point/question raised in this thread. Fear as RC points out? Friendship? Scalawag? All of the above?

And, yes, Hubbard and the Office of Naval Intelligence. Hrmmm. The ONI turns up again and again in topics that would fall on the "Weird Desk." I have some examples somewhere, but if any of y'all do, it could be an interesting discussion.

Thanks, lakespirit, you have a razor-sharp mind it seems.

RedCairo
Well, because it's rude: my goal was not to attack them as individuals but to answer GUT's question a bit brutally is all...I don't normally even talk about this anymore, even in online areas I own dedicated to the subject. GUT caught me at a weak moment is all, dammit. Later I really wished I could delete it but people had already responded and it was past time.

It has been tugging at me that maybe I could potentially cause you some unwanted crap by pushing for info. My apologies, RC. I won't go there with you again. Hug. (---O---)

The GUT

lakespirit
Swann, Price, Puthoff were all accomplished Scientology "Higher ups", and Vallee never seems to take them to task for their cultish proclivities in his writing. Vallee had no problem disparaging Marshall Applewhite and his followers, I guess they were a safe target back in the Messengers of Deception days. In Forbidden Science 2, Vallee name-checks Jim Jones, Applewhite, even Castaneda gets a nod, Hubbard is only briefly mentioned, in relation to Parsons/JPL, but Scientology itself seems to have gotten a "pass". And if Vallee's intention in writing Messengers of Deception was to help sound an alarm against cults, how could he go so easy on Scientology?

That is the most penetrating point/question raised in this thread. Fear as RC points out? Friendship? Scalawag?

And, yes, Hubbard and the Office of Naval Intelligence. Hrmmm. The ONI turns up again and again in topics that would fall on the "Weird Desk." I have some examples somewhere, but if any of y'all do, it could be an interesting discussion.

Thanks, lakespirit, you have a razor-sharp mind it seems.

Well, as we know, the Navy runs the military space program. The reasoning is that space is considered another "sea" I think.
But yeah ONI comes up a lot.

Remember the alien interview out of Area 51? I'm sure that was a hoax, but the time stamp on the bottom of the video was ONI.

reply to post by The GUT


You are the guy with the hole in your mind who barely powers his own energy system because he is so enthralled by that tear..and the issues you find so compelling..your search for truth...your conflicted feelings about God ufo and the supernatural. Nobody is going to prove anything to you. I doubt Ingo swan could have.
You my friend are slightly stuck between worlds.. you typify the angst and extreme skepticism with an extreme desire to have your skepticism proven wrong that makes you trickster bait...and more trickster stuff is likely on the way for you...that door in your head is currently cracked open.

But don't believe me... I'm batting zero guy who exerts evil power over those with weak wills...*eye roll*. You are close to impossible for me to read...90% of your being is in that hole.

Now as to beings....I'm not conflicted about anything anymore.

There is formless awareness.
There is form caused by temporary breaking of symmetry. ..like quantum foam.

Then there are beings...All are temporary.
None are more or less real. To a shaman the current being that he or she wears is just another being like any other. It's not his or her being....just one off the big pile.

But crazy trickster shamans still like to have a good time...no matter what body they may be lurking in...talking to...or healing...

I'm gonna have to practice some more verifiable skills...which is sort of against the rules..

so take anything I say as speculative...but informed and spoken with purpose and reason...but no reason to get your blood pressure up over me.

reply to post by RedCairo


You may disagree with me on some things.
But you are in a similar state to me. You've learned to leave the mana personalities alone to become stable which is good. When you don't you unbalance your bodies ph which causes health flare ups.

You know that i love you too right?

You make excellent posts.