Mirage Men is out.

What I'm hoping we can do is gather the data available from various credible on this Mirage Men scenario to provide a mosaic image. In this way, we will have a more complete understanding of what was really happening and better clues about the who the chessman were moving the pawns about.

The Doty and Moore activities touched many UFO activities in the 80s and into the 90s. The case I'm focusing on, the Cash-Landrum UFO incident was tampered with and affected, but it is difficult to determine why or to what end. The rumors launched about it may have been a feint designed to distract or misdirect attention away from something else.

Getting back to information processing, I'd recommend anyone examining the events use a simple, but effective tool and create a timeline of events. Parallel to it, a timeline of UFO cases, military and political events. Examine the sequence, and see if they correlate. I'm in the process of doing such a timeline in spreadsheet form for the Cash-Landrum case, and even in the early stages, some red flags started popping up.

What the Mirage Men were doing in the past is fascinating, but we need to start using the what's been learned to reveal just what's happening now. Their games are only rarely about UFOs...

reply to post by CardDown

I'm still tracking down some leads on some of the characters in the Bennewitz and "UFO Coverup? Live!" saga, but I intend to present all the information I've been able to gather in the near future, and that, hopefully, will help build the mosaic you propose.

I think it's obvious from our discussions that there are certain details that can only be clarified by those involved. Springer stated he sometimes communicates with Kit Green, so I wonder if it would be possible to submit some questions to Green through Springer for example, since Green isn't likely interested in participating directly here.

I can think of a few points that if addressed could help clarify some of the questions that persist. I'm sure you, The GUT, and others, can also think of a few.

I submit to Springer if this proposition is possible.

I finished Mirage Men ( the book) and was flabbergasted at something that I perceived but wanted to sleep on it.

It seems that after Mark met Kit Green, there was a marked (no pun intended) difference in his perspective.
He admitted it in the book…fine.
But that’s not all there was.

Now here’s is where perception comes in. There also seems to be some kind of difference in his writing style as well…more philosophical, A BIT MORE OPEN, I WOULD SAY WIDE OPEN.

I perceived that he started to think like Doty!

Tell me I’m wrong…please cause that part of the book had me baffled, to say the least.
The ramifications of what I am thinking are pretty sinister.

Anyway great book and great film

CardDown
Getting back to information processing, I'd recommend anyone examining the events use a simple, but effective tool and create a timeline of events.

As you may have seen, The Gut mentioned above that he has been working on producing a relevant timeline:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

(I like timelines/chronologies as well. We use them a lot in legal cases to help structure material. I made a 1,800 page chronology of UFO events and documents available for free online a few years ago as a PDF file and editable Microsoft Word document. I had hoped would serve as the basis for development in collaboration with some other UFO researchers and UFO groups. While a few people liked it, no one seemed to want to work on developing it).

Beyond my fertile imagination, I think what is important is what one wants to get to, what conclusions can be reached?

Such as is Doty telling the truth?

That’s my point. In the end of that book Mark was all over the place.
He went from knowing to belief to doubt and then to openness in no time flat and suggested that any attempt at any conclusions was futile in the UFO field.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone at all but this is a difficult topic to pin down and the book Mirage Men emphasized that in the end.

Frankly, from my perspective, that informs me that it may be something far outside our awareness that is running this show

I wouldn’t use the term alien because that wouldn’t cover what I mean.

Lets call it Alien plus.

vbstrvct
reply to post by CardDown

 

I'm still tracking down some leads on some of the characters in the Bennewitz and "UFO Coverup? Live!" saga, but I intend to present all the information I've been able to gather in the near future, and that, hopefully, will help build the mosaic you propose.

Looking forward to that.

One of my hopes is that by keeping this discussion alive, more folk will get interested and keep digging. At depth, hopefully...although I do understand it may be "unsolvable" at this point. It gets more complicated when looking at all the characters involved as Isaac has pointed out more than once. What motivates one player may not have much to do with another's motivations. That's one reason I try to focus mostly on just a few who seem to me to be "key" in some way.

I think it's obvious from our discussions that there are certain details that can only be clarified by those involved. Springer stated he sometimes communicates with Kit Green, so I wonder if it would be possible to submit some questions to Green through Springer for example, since Green isn't likely interested in participating directly here.

I can think of a few points that if addressed could help clarify some of the questions that persist. I'm sure you, The GUT, and others, can also think of a few.

I submit to Springer if this proposition is possible.

Springer did act as liaison and put a few questions to Kit at one time that Kit allowed to be posted here. The questions, however, weren't--for the most part--the questions we on this OP would probably be asking.

Definitely worth a try. Are you going to contact Springer? Dr. Green also seems remarkably open to answering respectful emails as was reported by one poster during the MIB(OPs) thread.

However, that poster stated that Dr. Green had requested their communications be private. That was one of the reasons I didn't accept an offer of introduction and contact with Kit: Hard to "investigate" and report if one's hands are tied by a gentleman's agreement.

The GUT
Definitely worth a try. Are you going to contact Springer? Dr. Green also seems remarkably open to answering respectful emails as was reported by one poster during the MIB(OPs) thread. However, that poster stated that Dr. Green had requested their communications be private. That was one of the reasons I didn't accept an offer of introduction and contact with Kit: Hard to "investigate" and report if one's hands are tied by a gentleman's agreement.

Yeah, what I'm suggesting would be with the understanding that the information will be public. That's why I'm suggesting going through Springer. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.

If any of us tries to privately ask the questions I suspect we have for him and he answers but requests the information not to be shared, I'm not sure what good that would do at this point. Besides, from all those involved, I think Kit Green is probably the one that seems more receptive to some questions we would like to see clarified.

Now, it's understandable if he doesn't want to answer given those terms, especially since in the past he requested his communications to remain private, but I think it's worth to try.

Well, I would be very interested in asking Dr. Green some questions...

Pandolfi is quite the character. Maybe even a "foil."

From: Ronald Pandolfi
To: 'RICK DOTY'
Cc: 'Christopher Green'
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 21:33
Subject: RE: Keep me out of this

Rick,

I very much appreciate you recommendation that I peruse the ATS forum. It contained excellent background information. Sometime next week I will consult with Dr. Green and attempt to come to closure on a few of the outstanding issues. I will post the public aspects of my findings on the ATS forum, provide you a personal copy if you provide a mailing address, and I will send an official copy to Capt. Pete Kassetas of the New Mexico State Patrol as identified on the ATS forum. I very much appreciate your assistance.

email exchange

Say what?!


Also note how in the excerpt from the following email, Kit tries to feign unfamiliarity with Doty:

…Some time ago, Ron contacted me to discuss some material about a Police Officer in New Mexico. He in the emails, he and I soon switched from his personal to his government email account. I indicated, and he responded affirmatively, that such material was private from me to him, him to me, and me to the person he asked I intercede with. I do not know what the Police Officer's view was -- and he may not care if his emails are made public…

www.toasteddolphin.com...

Laugh Out Loud. Then puke at the ever-changing and constant attempt at deception.

The GUT: Do you think Vallee might have been coerced into the disinformation stuff - maybe via his family? I'm still hoping someone can step in and discuss Vallee's math and stuff, but if he was deliberately fudging his data...

A series of posts From the MIB(OPs) thread. Make of it what you will.

Okay, here goes, without private details. If I somehow miss something mod, please do me the favor of not removing my entire post, just edit out what you deem is a ToC violation.

My original message, with all pertinent information for those who assume I am trolling or lying:

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Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 01:08:30 -0400
Delivered-To: removed personal details
Message-ID:
Subject: Hello Mr. Green - Spare some time for questions?
From: Chris Greene
To: removed personal details (if you'd like his e-mail for whatever reason, you can PM me)
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Kit,

My name is Christopher as well. We almost have the same surname,
however mine is spelled slightly different (with an e).

I recently came across some information a friend had put together in
regards to your life's work in neuroscience research, government
duties (senior division analyst), your accreditation with the
Presidents National Intelligence Medal (79-83) and it was all
profoundly interesting to me. From your work with the assassination of
Georgi Merkov to your neuroscience studies to ascertain the real
motive and intent of a person with regards to information they're
providing. Despite how interesting the latter is to me, one part of
your research caught my eye and that part would be your involvement on
"UFOs" and the idea of them being real and this information needs to
be slowly let out to humanity (if this is your intent, I greatly
condone your efforts) or, that disinformation needs to be spread to
the public about "UFOs" in attempts at setting up false flag events in
the future, in regards to management of human beings on not only a
national scale but a global one as well.

I am writing you this letter to request two things from you:

1) Is there any information that you can share in regards to the
above? It would be naive of me to ask you to come out directly and
disclose any top secret information you may have but I am quite versed
in understanding subtlety.

2) Please, Kit, if any aspect of your job or intent is nefarious,
regarding control of human beings or the population of this great
country / world, disinformation, false flags, please remember we are
all the same and we all come from one creator (weather that be our
God, an alien subspecies, etc.) and ultimately, all living beings in
the galaxy and the universe have to answer to one power. We should be
working together for the benefit of our society so that we can prosper
and make it many thousands and hopefully millions of years into the
future.

I would like to state in regards to 2), above, that I do not believe
this is your intent but I had to state it as a personal disclaimer, in
the event that you choose not to reply to me. Frankly, I believe
you're a true-blue patriot and a person for the greater good of our
country and for our world. As I re-read 2), it sounds almost a little
"wacko" but please understand all of this comes from a sane and sound
mind. Thank you for the time you spent reading this and for any time
you may have utilized in composing a reply.

Sincerely,

Christopher

Kits response:

(separate post below)

-----------------------------------

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From: "Green, Christopher"
To: "Chris Greene"
Subject: Re: Hello Mr. Green - Spare some time for questions?
Thread-Topic: Hello Mr. Green - Spare some time for questions?
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Chris:

You are kind to want to reflect on these important questions, and I will be delighted to help, if I can.

First you are right, I do not have any aspect of the job I do, or ever have done, in these or related areas that are dishonest or nefarious. As a graduate of an Episcopal Seminary, I am also committed to other truths.

Second I do not believe in nor practice either subtlety or mendacity on a personal level, nor do I accept it from others. That is my personal disclaimer, similar to yours of Item 2).

That said, I also do not intend to imply that I have any reason whatsoever to believe that you are flying a false flag, much less being disingenuous with your requests for incredibly complex answers to ineffable issues. Indee
d, they are ones that have spanned my professional 44-year career in intelligence and the practice of medicine. I am certain you do not expect answers about these most important issues of our time with a simple elicitation an
d with a single email. I am at a disadvantage: I do not know who you are, or why we should really discuss these matters, quite yet. Let's fix that.

Tell me ( perhaps when we meet if you prefer to not write about yourself in an email (why you care, how you found me, and what you really are up to. When we cover the same territory about you, that you have covered about me we may have fruitful and important conversations.


I do not discuss these matters in emails, until and unless I have the knowledge, first-hand, about the motives and the purposes other that simple "interest" which is insufficient to begin a dialogue.


I would be happy to meet with you, and have a quiet lunch over 2-4 hours, for starters, at the Detroit Medical Center, where I will arrange my patient schedule to be free, and host you for a lunch at the Doctor's Dining Room
where we can get to know each-other, and then decide the degree of detail you may want, and which I may come to learn would be worth my time to discuss.

Let me know some possible dates, and we will mesh our schedules, and I will provide easy directions to Harper University Hospital where I practice Diagnostic Radiology / MRI Brain-imaging and we can talk


Very best, and many thanks for your confidence.


Kit

Christopher C. Green MD, PhD FAAFS
Assistant Dean / Asia Pacific
Wayne State School of Medicine

Professor and Clinical Fellow / Neuroimaging

Phone numbers removed

-------------------------------------

Okay so I am getting ready to write Chris a reply e-mail. I have questions I'd like to ask and I will also let Chris know that I may be sharing some of the information he shares with me, unless at his request, he wishes for me to keep certain aspects private.

Until then.

-------------------------------------

I wanted to state in public domain the any of the conversations held between Kit and I will not be made public. The private messages can cease as they are going to be ignored.

It was irresponsible of me to post any of our communication from one another, however, if I were to make a post here stating that him and I were discussing things, with this being the website of Proof Required (tm), I would have been called a troll or liar (I think I was already, somewhere within this thread).

The GUT, I will say that your judgement on character in regards to Mr. Green was accurate. The internet (certain people) have a very efficient way of spreading falsehoods about individuals and these claims cannot be refuted unless specifically, by the person in question. Even at that, how would this person prove they are themselves?

In any regard, Kit is a genuine person with his own "real life" ordeals to take care of. He has real thoughts about his own family, humanity and moving forward. I don't believe for a single moment that Kit has, or ever would be, a so called, "puppet-master". Obviously, people in powerful positions have to make decisions and those decisions are based on their own and their board of staffs best judgement. If this turns out to be the wrong decision, which happens within every avenue of life, whether it be government, retail, communications etc., people turn it into the biggest ordeal. An old saying my fellow employees and myself had at a job long ago, "do 1,000 things right and you don't even get as much as a good job, do one thing wrong, and you'll never hear the end of it."

For anyone who would post anything negative toward Mr. Green, think for a moment that this information will eventually reach this persons eyes. Think about what you're saying based on assumptions and how this may affect this person (even in the slightest way). If what you're stating about a person isn't based on 100% complete fact and you absolutely without the shadow of a doubt know it to be fact, hold your tongue and make it clear that what you may be stating is NOT based on fact.

Sometimes we forget that the things we say about individuals over the internet are real people.

1ofthe9
The GUT: Do you think Vallee might have been coerced into the disinformation stuff - maybe via his family? I'm still hoping someone can step in and discuss Vallee's math and stuff, but if he was deliberately fudging his data...

Either Forbidden Science II was an attempt by a guilty man to clean up his image, or it was a sincere plea--full of clues--to explain how he was compromised. Hard to say at this point, but an important document I think.

For those that might be interested in FS II, it's now out of print. I hear there might be pdfs floating around, however. u2u me if you haven't read it.

Kit Green's email (referenced above by me in this thread) that he allowed Springer to post in response to the following highly recommended thread:

Is ATS and UFOlogy a playground for Government mind control researchers?

from an Email received by Springer from Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green:


I have never, in any way...manner...shape...or form been involved in "Mind Control" research, nor do I know anyone, personally, who has been...with the single exception of Dr. Sid Gottlieb...whom I met briefly twice in 1971. The "Brother Blue"Goblins of Langley is partially true...but not those parts! I also met Joslyn West, MD, PhD...who has been claimed to have been involved in Mind Control research on the web. It is a lie, in my personal opinion. He said he was not, and I believed him. I worked with him for many years after I left Government full-time employment, from about 1987 until he died a few years ago. A more ethical and honorable physician I have never met. I am in good company to be accused of false things like being involved in "Mind Control." He was too busy at Harvard Medical School being the Chair at the time...so I suspect that is made up. The MKULTRA program, ARTICHOKE, and BLUEBIRD psychopharmacology efforts ended from 7 to 15 years before I ever entered into government service, in 1969. I do not believe Remote Viewing is Mind Control...but if anyone does...then they might think I was a mind control person, however.

I DID assess CLAIMED Foreign (Soviet, PRC, and Eastern Bloc) research in "mind control" from about 1970 through 1985 when I left the Agency. I never, ever, found any credible evidence of any work by them either...lots of garbage, lots of claimed results, lots of hokey machines with flashing lights and loud sounds...but never anything I was willing to say I thought was a threat to the National Security of the United States. I even reviewed a Soviet LIDA-4 "Mind Control" machine...and found it to be a total fraud. (It did flash an annoying strobe light and make weird bleeping sounds that certain Russian Scientists thought was controlling the minds of the lab rats on which they were testing it.


And, I am totally familiar with the "Non-Lethal"and "Less than Lethal" work by the US Army, too. That work sometimes uses "Flash-Bang" grenades, and Lasers to create pictures to create artificial invisibility...but that is not what I mean by "Mind Control." I do know, however, that White Propaganda as well as Flash Bang scare things do constitute Mind Control in some persons' minds. I was also briefed on the early (before my time) Chemical Warfare research (which ended in 1962) on BZ and other "Mind Altering" riot control agents. But I wasn't"involved" personally in any of this, either.


The above is public...I have told the folks at RU this, and OM, and many others. But folk-lore outlasts truth.

And, I was a senior analyst at CIA from 1969 through 1985...and have a dollar-a-year consultant from 1985 to the present, and I have continuously held many, many security clearances. So...in many persons' mind...that does make me evil. And, fair game. And, a probable liar. But, I am not evil or a liar about the above or anything else I have done in Intelligence (less than complete...often...about classified materials...but always and even then...consistent with the truth even if less detailed.

I am, however, fair game. I knew I would be when I took the Oath of Office before a Federal Judge when I entered on duty...and remind myself every year when I go through my security clearance reviews, or when I take a polygraph, and sign my papers re-confirming the verbal oath.

See, now Kit Green should really write a memoir. I would read the hell out of that just for the wacky adventures he seems to have gotten involved with over the years.

Also that approach to Forbidden Science II makes sense. It could explain why he retreated from his position in Messengers of Deception... Yet we still have the Brazilian radiological fatalities to explain. :X

reply to post by The GUT


I see me and old Kit worked at GM together for a few years. Of course he worked with the big shots and I with the little shots.

So what is it GUT you no longer think Kit is the prince of darkness?

I believe the CIA is capable of anything.

Even if Kit did mind control stuff he’d never admit it.

One needs to see a time line of what he did at CIA

Kit Green speaks highly of Joslyn West, or is that Dr Jolyon, or Jolly West?

West seems buried up to his ears in MK-Ultra and assorted nastiness.

West lived in the Haight-Ashbury in 1967, and this seems to give perhaps even more support to the idea that this area and its then flourishing hippy counterculture may itself have been part of MK-Ultra's scope.

cc157.blogspot.com.au...

There seems to be a lot of info available tying him to mind control and other nefarious things.

www.whale.to...

www.constantinereport.com...

We see Dr West's name mentioned in this thread, which connects directly to accusations against Michael Aquino, also present on this board;

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Something does not smell good here.

I hope everyone does realize that the UFO sightings have occurred long before the black ops people got ahold of it. there is plenty of historical documentation... this movie itself might be a sy-ops production.....question everything, and always follow the money.

reply to post by jimmyx


Once and a while a post comes along like yours such as mine maybe 100 posts ago, that reminds the main guys about what you post.

We are doing forensic UFOLOGY

We know the whole country is a psyop!

reply to post by cuckooold


I agree. My hypothesis is that Green is a part of the psycho squad…eventhough he might deny it.

There's little doubt he dabbles majorly in mind control all one has to do is read Mirage Men and see him in action; he practically hypnotized the authors.

The guys here are too close to see it, imo.

Willtell
So what is it GUT you no longer think Kit is the prince of darkness?

I believe the CIA is capable of anything.

Even if Kit did mind control stuff he’d never admit it.

I never said Kit was the prince of darkness. An associate maybe. Possibly first name basis. J/K

It's all information. Some of it good, some of it bad. Some of it conceivably containing clues or statements that contradict with other statements. Then again, he could be as grandfatherly and innocent as his own words suggest if'n you buy that.

Small example: Kit Green knows darn well that nonlethal weaponry is more than flash-bang grenades.

Cuckooold: Wonder what he thinks of Jolyon West's proposed "Non-Violence Center?" That's one I'd like to discuss the "ethics" of with Dr. Green.

In explaining the work of the center, Dr. West said that “in some patients, outbursts of uncontrolled rage have definitely been linked to abnormal electrical activity in deeply buried areas of the brain … For many years, neurologists have measured the electrical activity of the brain with electrodes attached to the scalp … Now by implanting tiny electrodes deep within the brain, electrical activity can be followed in areas that cannot be measured from the surface of the scalp.”

The future looked even more promising, Dr. West declared. “It is even possible to record bioelectrical changes in the brains of freely moving subjects, through the use of remote monitoring techniques.”...

...According to Dr. West, “The major known correlates of violence are sex (male), age (youthful), ethnicity (black), and urbanicity.” Dr. West advocated a wide range of treatments, including chemical castration, psychosurgery and experimental drugs, incorporating computer databases to track “pre-delinquent” youth for “preemptive” treatment of black youth with no criminal record. The proposed Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence was shot down a year later by the California State Legislature after the racist agenda of Dr. West’s barbaric psychiatric gulag was exposed by legitimate scientists and the press.

deeppoliticsforum.com...

Kit apparently sees the Jolly Mon a tad differently than history does. I wonder what projects they worked on together for "many years?"

I worked with him for many years after I left Government full-time employment, from about 1987 until he died a few years ago. A more ethical and honorable physician I have never met.