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Mirage Men is out.

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posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 08:13 PM
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vbstrvct
I don't think Green was involved at all with the Bennewitz operation. I don't think The GUT or anyone else has proposed that either. I don't know. I'll let others chime in on that.

Yep. I don't think there's any evidence for that. Not that I haven't wondered and not that it's not possible.

He seems to first show up as a possible conspirator of some sort in MJ-12.




posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 08:16 PM
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Willtell
NO operation is ever about one thing.

I totally agree on that. It's part of my own argument...and it's most likely a big part of why this mess is so complicated. Agencies also step on each other's toes from time to time and I suspect we are witnessing some of that in this labyrinth. They are also known to sometimes pose as agents of a "competing" agency!



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 08:20 PM
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Sounds like a disinformation campaign. UFOs have been reported for much longer than the Air Force has existed. If you read the ship's log of Christopher Columbus, you will see that he observed a UFO come up out of the water when he was about a day or two out from landing in America.

The UFO subject is not going to be killed off as another government trick. It's here to stay, and it needs answers. Honest, open government supported answers.

For Pete's sake, didn't the Disclosure Project put any doubts to rest on this subject? You have hundreds of government or former government and private contractors signing affidavits that they saw it and verify it is true.

What else is there? Need a landing in your yard....because you wouldn't believe it if it landed in someone else's yard?

It did, and you don't.



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 09:39 PM
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Just a couple of items for perusal and/or infotainment:

In an article for Fortean Times (May 2006) Mark Pilkington did offer--as one of a few theories--the possibility of a "social experiment":


We can speculate further, without the need for UFOs or ETs, that this could be a sociological or psychological research project being carried out by one or other intelligence agency, or a university, perhaps by a member of Martinez's list. Think of it as memetic tracking: tracing the paths that information follows might be a very useful exercise in our data-saturated age. Like attaching a transmitter to a whale, or following barium radio-isotopes through a hospital patient's digestive system, it can teach us a lot about both the object being followed and the territory it's travelling through. Certainly with all the intelligence and military personnel monitoring Martinez's list, it's easy to imagine it as a vivarium for living information.

Here's some about Doty and Collins and Doty being an attorney as published in Exempt from Disclosure. This is a peek at Rick's nasty side. The guy that Kit Green has spoken highly of.


Reality Uncovered Project Serpo Investigation - Part 6
Rick Doty's Blackmail and Victor's Moral "High" Ground

This is a continuation of the release of information that has been gathered during the long investigation into the Project Serpo story by Reality Uncovered. This part includes a few examples of the many incidents of unethical behaviour by two of the individuals responsible for "delivering" Serpo to the public domain.

The following is updated information we are providing to help make everyone aware of what has really been going on "behind the scenes" of Serpo. Throughout our research and verification of the various facts found in Mr. Collins book on Doty, Shawnna - the lead investigator on that issue (Doty's lawyer claims) was not only insulted by Mr. Collins and Bill Ryan in emails, Mr. Doty himself privately harassed and threatened Shawnna.

Additionally our integrity, morality, and truthfulness has come under full attack by the OM forum. We are now releasing the first piece of information we've confirmed about Victor Martinez's criminal history, whom the OM moderators have collaborated with in attacking each of us as we've moved forward with our investigations.
Doty's harassment of Shawnna

Toward the end of the "heated" argument between Collins & Doty and us regarding the Bar Exam and Law School issues, Richard Doty started privately emailing Shawnna threatening emails. He claimed to have some information about trouble with the law in her past and threatened to make those public unless she stopped talking about him. He was threatening to use a fabricated criminal past about Shawnna if she wouldn't remain silent about her findings. At one point in the evening, Mr. Doty sent Shawnna 8 emails in the span of one hour.

June 15th, Rick sent Shawnna the following email:

----------------------
[From Rick]
From: "RICK DOTY"
Date: June 15, 2006 8:32:43 PM PDT
To: "Shawnna Connolly"
Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: SERPO, SEINU and DISCLOSURE Open Mind -The Progressive Sceptics and Para-Politics Forum - Bob Collins resolves the 'Doty email' issue

Ms. Connolly:

You have falsified several things about me, my occupation and my past. You have hoaxed my email address and my name.

Now, if you wish to see how well I'm versed in law, I'll show you.
-----------------------

Nine minutes later - he sends her the following threat:

----------------------
[From Rick]
From: "RICK DOTY"
Date: June 15, 2006 8:41:37 PM PDT
To:
Subject: Re: Convicted Felon

I was just informed by two people on Victor Martinez's list that you are a convicted felon. You were convicted of forgery and embezzlement.

I will publish this on the forum.
-----------------------

Shawnna - never one to be phased by threats, calls his bluff:

----------------------
[From Shawnna]
From: Shawnna Connolly
To: Rxxxxxxxxxx@msn.com
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 21:53
Subject: Your threat - "Convicted Felon"

?- you appear to be desperate, Mr. Doty.

I have NEVER done anything wrong in my entire life, much less been charged, or convicted of ANYTHING.??

Go ahead and post this - it would be my pleasure to SUE a New Mexico state police man presenting false information on the internet and fraudently passing himself off as a lawyer (page 91, second edition of Exempt from Disclosure, and page 96 of the first edition of Exempt from Disclosure).

Always,
Shawnna
-----------------------

But Doty continues using his threatening tactics - I'm sure they've worked before. But apparently he's never met anyone like Shawnna before....

----------------------
[From Rick]
From: "RICK DOTY"
To: "Shawnna Connolly"
Subject: Re: Your threat - "Convicted Felon"
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 03:57:50 +0000

You'd have to sue the persons who spread the information, mainly Victor's list of people, who forwarded me the email.

Now, you see how things can be spread? Whether its truth or not, it was spread.

Oh, I'll spread it, just like you spread lies about me.

By the way, you can't sue unless you can prove venue, which can't be done on Internet traffic. You might want to check the laws!

Just keep you mouth shut about me and I'll do the same with you.

If not, then things will get very interesting with Internet Traffic.
-----------------------

While the threats were disturbing, Shawnna would not allow Mr. Doty to intimidate her, and she contacted the NM State Police and forwarded this information & evidence of all of the threats to his immediate supervisor.

Shawnna heard back from his supervisor as a result of our report. Capt. Pete Kassetas of the New Mexico State Patrol assured Shawnna that Mr. Doty had been spoken to and would not be contacting her again. He also said that if for some reason she did hear from Mr. Doty again, she was to contact him right away. Shawnna asked Capt. Kassetas if the department was OK with Doty claiming to have passed the NM State Bar exam and presenting himself to be a lawyer - his response was that he couldn't talk to her about the details but that issue was also being investigated.

Shawnna hasn't heard from Doty since…

realityuncovered.com...


edit on 20-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 10:03 PM
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The GUT
In an article for Fortean Times (May 2006) Mark Pilkington did offer--as one of a few theories--the possibility of a "social experiment":

.... Certainly with all the intelligence and military personnel monitoring Martinez's list, it's easy to imagine it as a vivarium for living information.


That's an interesting comment by Pilkington. Could the Serpo story be a planted story to smoke out people that leak classified information? Put a sensational story out there and monitor any requests for information on it from people with high clearances. Pretty common intel gathering op to be honest designed to stop leaks.



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 10:26 PM
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vbstrvct
I don't think Green was involved at all with the Bennewitz operation. I don't think The GUT or anyone else has proposed that either. I don't know. I'll let others chime in on that.


Doty seems to be saying that he didn't really generate the info they supplied to Bennowitz to drive him crazy, Doty just developed a relationship with him and conducted the operation against him. Given Doty even stopped his operation and seemingly genuinely told Bennowitz to drop it for his own safety it seems clear Doty wasn't generating the story or deciding when the operation had reached it's 'goal'.

I haven't seen proof of Green involved against Bennowitz, but I'd hold that Green's career starts out at a lower level then he progresses up the ladder as the years go by. At some point before Serpo he gets hooked up with Doty. When they first meet might be interesting.



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 11:11 PM
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vbstrvct
Dan Smith to Bekkum:

Colonels Hennessey and Weaver were called over to the CIA after the 1988 TV show to discuss Doty's situation. They denied any continuing connection with Doty, claiming he was nothing more than a petty criminal. The alleged proof of that was that Doty had failed a polygraph test relative to his case. Kit Green had the polygraph charts ... the conclusion was that Doty had not lied. When confronted with the evidence, Hennessey and Weaver walked out of the meeting ...

There is no doubt that Hennessey knew more about UFOs and Doty than he let on to the CIA in 1988 ... That he would not share that concern with the CIA, indicates that he was being seriously co-opted in some fashion. (source)


Pandolfi to Bekkum:

First, the meeting you referenced with Colonel Hennessey and Colonel Weaver was unofficial in response to a personal request of an ex-CIA officer [Dr. Kit Green] who had recently met with Doty and was startled by some of Doty's claims. I participated only as a friend of that ex-CIA officer. (Ibid.)


Exchanges between Green and Pandolfi:

Green: "I need you to know that Colonel Weaver has contacted me and said he is Gene Loscowski. Her [sic] referred in detail to the meeting you and I had with Barry Hennessey about Rick's polygraph records."

Pandolfi: "Kit, I was not with you during the meeting you had with Barry Hennessey about Rick's polygraph records. The meeting you and I participated in included Barry Hennessey, Col. Weaver, and the CIA CI Director and did not involve any discussion of Rick's polygraph records."

Green: "You must have left the room. It was in your office, in STD [Science and Technology Directorate]. The entire reason I got irritated with Barry — for which you told me he later called you and asked my clearances be 'revoked' — was that he had launched into a rant about Rick's telling lies, and the polygraph confirming deception. He did not know that the day before the meeting, I had actually reviewed the entire polygraph in question — seen there had been no deception indicated."

Pandolfi: "Concerning your follow-on discussion with Colonel Hennessey after I left the room, was the CIA CI Director still present? He was a close friend of Colonel Hennessey and leaned on me pretty hard after Colonel Hennessey complained." (Ibid.)


Thanks a ton for this quote and the background link...still reading some more of it. To be honest I'm a bit blown away by some of the implications of this stuff.
- Doty passed a polygraph on the subject matter of that TV show disclosure?? That polygraph result attracted Green, who was already ex-CIA and into research projects but compartmentalized outside the deep story that Doty knew.
- Green's uncovering the truth of Doty's statements was probably the main reason the request to strip his access was made. He now knew way more than allowed.
- Green's long time support of Doty after these events supports Doty as being much more in the know than I previously thought.

I thought Doty wasn't such a complicated and connected player. I'm now thinking Doty learned way more than he should have somehow, went rogue, was cut out but worked with Green for many years helping Green.
edit on 20-1-2014 by noeltrotsky because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 11:34 PM
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noeltrotsky
I thought Doty wasn't such a complicated and connected player. I'm now thinking Doty learned way more than he should have somehow, went rogue, was cut out but worked with Green for many years helping Green.

I don't have time right now to comment at length on your scenarios and timelines, but yeah, Doty is not easy to figure out. When I started looking into this, from the little I had heard about, I assumed at the time that Doty was somewhat of a linear character. But of course it turned to be more complex than what I naively assumed.

And if you want things to get even more complex read what Chris Lambright wrote about him in X Descending. Lambright has a theory, and provides some evidence for it, that puts Doty working for the government at least one year earlier than his military records show. And that he was probably working for the CIA, and only then went to work for AFOSI.

I wondered if that could help explain why Doty, after having retired from AFOSI in 1988, still continued to have access to Kirtland AFB. At least he still had access in 2005 or 2006 when he took Mark Pilkington an John Lundberg into the base when they were writing and filming Mirage Men.

As we pulled up at Kirtland's entrance we passed the sign for Thunder Scientific, now run by Paul Bennewitz's sons; if anything stirred in Rick he didn't show it. At the guard post I wondered if John and I would pass muster and be allowed inside but, with both of us wearing army-green jackets and, for me, unusually short hair, we looked more militarized than Rick, whose knitted sweater wouldn't have looked out of place on a Jim Reeves album.
An armed guard stepped up to the driver's side win dow. Confronted by gun-toting Americans in uniform, I always get the sense that I must be doing something wrong, but the soldier ignored John and me. Rick passed him an ID card and the guard saluted, the gate was raised and we drove in. I asked if I could see Rick's card, but he slipped it back into his wallet without saying anything. (Mark Pilkington, Mirage Men, 2010)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 12:21 AM
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noeltrotsky

The GUT
In an article for Fortean Times (May 2006) Mark Pilkington did offer--as one of a few theories--the possibility of a "social experiment":

.... Certainly with all the intelligence and military personnel monitoring Martinez's list, it's easy to imagine it as a vivarium for living information.


That's an interesting comment by Pilkington. Could the Serpo story be a planted story to smoke out people that leak classified information? Put a sensational story out there and monitor any requests for information on it from people with high clearances. Pretty common intel gathering op to be honest designed to stop leaks.


Perhaps a planted story to smoke out the 'real' keepers of the secret by the gang everyone thinks runs the show.



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 05:44 AM
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noeltrotsky

Willtell
…even the book Mirage Men has the gov good seal of approval and if you read that book carefully you will cleary see it, imo.

***Red Flag!!!*** ***Red Flag!!!***
You mean the book Mirage Men and thus the movie have been compromised by government control mechanisms? Now that is a good question for people involved in the making of the movie (or book). Do they have any thoughts on information they gathered or were denied? Anyone of them get the feeling they were being led down the path to a government favorable conclusion???

Well, I'm not sure what 'the gov good seal of approval' is.

Certainly over the last two and half years of post-production (which mostly took place in my house in London) there has been categorically no outside influence on how this film has been put together. Early on, a tentative offer of US government funding came via Doty to John and Mark (in the 'I can get you some money for this movie, mode') but the offer (like most of Doty's) never materialised and it would have been refused anyway. If you've read the book you know that Doty told Mark that he had been informed that Mark worked for M16 (which of course is nonsense) which could have come from anybody with personal reasons for wanting to discredit the project.

Nor do I think the book or the film led to a 'government favorable conclusion', since they present government security agencies using the most dubious tactics to undermine and mislead citizens and their own employees.

In terms of the stories told to the filmmakers, we can all speculate whether Doty is a rogue, a fantasist, a patsy or still working as a government disiformation agent (my personal belief? A combination of the first three and none of the last). And, again personally, I think pretty much the same for Kit Green. Whatever his work in the past, I think Green is now well out of the government-sanctioned disinformation loop, certainly in relation to UFOs.

So if there are 'government control mechanisms' going on, it is difficult to know how they are manifest since the material we had to work with is chock full of contradictions. Perhaps more to the point, having listened to Green's full recorded interview, if he is pushing a government line, it is difficult to determine what that line is. If Doty and Green have led us down a path, I reckon it's through their own garden.



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 07:44 AM
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RoloD
We are currently preparing extra material for the DVD release of Mirage Men. We are considering releasing the entire Richard Doty interview uncut and including extended interviews from others, some of whom did not make the final cut (including John Alexander).

Any thoughts, ATS people, on what you would be most interested in seeing? Or any particular thoughts on how the material should be presented?


Hi Roland,

Well, Doty is pretty much the star of the show - so any further footage of him would be a welcome bonus.

While probably not as well known, Kit Green is certainly an interesting character - so the full audio recording would be on my wish list (and, being just an audio file, presumably would not take up much room on the DVD nor require much, if any, time editing it).

Other than that, if you wanted to then you could make the DVD extras a multi-media package - e.g.

(1) Possibly include an introductory chapter from the "Mirage Men" book (assuming Mark will agree and get his publisher's okay), as a bit more background material and also to cross-advertise Mark's book.

(2) Mark Pilkington wrote some material when researching the "Mirage Men" book that didn't make the final cut when drafting and redrafting his book so you could include some written material that Mark may even have typed up already on some interesting individuals that he researched but did not include in the book (e.g. Caryn Anscomb).

(3) You could include a few relevant FOIA documents.



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 09:49 AM
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Willtell
So what the gov is doing, in this hypothetical situation Green is laying on the author and his friend, is going slow and making sure all the craziness is gotten out of the AlienUFO phenomenon before they come out with the complete truth…then people will have had been acclimated to this weird stuff and wont go crazy.
Therefore as most people think, the government is not the bad guy, it is doing us a favor by lying to us.
Is this reasonable?
What to me is far more likely is that, rather than aclimatising the people to the 'truth', the drip feed of disinformation effectively disables the UFO topic and whatever truths are behind it from serious investigation.



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by RoloD
 


Bingo! That too.
But meanwhile according to Mr. Green, the Gov is doing us a favor.

Now it may be some truth to that:the possibility that if the truth were known many couldn’t handle it and would jump off bridges.

I could agree with that intention if it is their intention.

What I do know is that the Orson Wells radio program where people supposedly went crazy when they thought Martians were invading is an exaggeration…or more disinformation.

edit on 21-1-2014 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 11:55 AM
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Does anyone know if there is any video footage of the legendary 1989 Mufon Conference and if so surely a full version would be a worthy addition to the dvd extras ?
edit on 21/1/14 by CrashRetrieval because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 12:15 PM
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CrashRetrieval
Does anyone know if there is any video footage of the legendary 1989 Mufon Conference and if so surely a full version would be a worthy addition to the dvd extras ?

Apparently there is because a portion of Moore's speech appears in Mirage Men the movie. Also, in the book, Pilkington mentions a copy of it, but that it's of very bad quality.

A grainy videotape is all that remains of Moore's speech; the sound, recorded separately, drifts in and out of sync, occasionally dropping out entirely. (Mark Pilkington, Mirage Men, 2010)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 01:24 PM
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vbstrvct
And if you want things to get even more complex read what Chris Lambright wrote about him in X Descending. Lambright has a theory, and provides some evidence for it, that puts Doty working for the government at least one year earlier than his military records show. And that he was probably working for the CIA, and only then went to work for AFOSI.

Ya' know, vbstrvct, that's a great a point that does give me some pause for reflection. I thought Lambright made a decent case for it and worthy of continued investigation.

If I remember correctly, the To5 emails (Doty, Green, Puthoff, Martinez, Ryan) seemed to suggest that Doty was some master of espionage with some scary skill sets and a rather ominous reputation. Kit Green also claimed that a couple of former CIA Directors had high regard for Doty. If that were true, then it might suggest he was more than an AFOSI laborer.

He comes across more bumbling Clouseau (Pink Panther) than Jack Ryan, however??

Then again, we are all talking about him and he is the star of a new and anticipated documentary. He's the one taking 98% of the heat. That's usually reserved for the lower-level folk ain't it---the fall guy if things go wrong?


edit on 21-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 03:22 PM
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IsaacKoi
While probably not as well known, Kit Green is certainly an interesting character - so the full audio recording would be on my wish list (and, being just an audio file, presumably would not take up much room on the DVD nor require much, if any, time editing it).

Thanks for the suggestions.

Only thing with the Kit Green recording is that I am not sure whether we have a release to use the entire recording. We have his permission for the quotes we use in the fim (obviously) but I don't think at the time he gave us permission to use the whole interview.

I shall check on this.



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 11:48 PM
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Is anyone familiar with criticism of Vallee's math? I've been debating some stuff with some campus skeptics, and they critiqued his use of statistics in Five Arguments Against the Extraterristrial Hypothesis. Does anyone know if he has been called out for bad math before?



posted on Jan, 22 2014 @ 01:04 AM
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CrashRetrieval
Does anyone know if there is any video footage of the legendary 1989 Mufon Conference and if so surely a full version would be a worthy addition to the dvd extras ?
edit on 21/1/14 by CrashRetrieval because: (no reason given)


We have this and a section is used in Mirage Men. Again, I will need to check whether we have the rights to use the entire recording.



posted on Jan, 22 2014 @ 01:20 AM
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RoloD

CrashRetrieval
Does anyone know if there is any video footage of the legendary 1989 Mufon Conference and if so surely a full version would be a worthy addition to the dvd extras ?
edit on 21/1/14 by CrashRetrieval because: (no reason given)


We have this and a section is used in Mirage Men. Again, I will need to check whether we have the rights to use the entire recording.


If you could get the whole thing on the DVD, that would be awesome.
I'd heard it was an angry crowd, but the video really demonstrated that. That must have been one hell of a conference!

Also I've started to toy with the scenario where Vallee and Hynek have taken an active role in disinformation. It would explain some things.




edit on 12014f3102America/Chicago9 by 1ofthe9 because: (no reason given)



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