Mirage Men is out.

vbstrvct
Bekkum claims, if I remember correctly, that Pandolfi did this to force Doty's hand because Pandolfi was convinced Doty was behind SERPO.

The way I remember it is that Pandolfi repeatedly claimed to have no interest in SERPO, and that his only concern was some suspicion that Doty might be involved with foreign spies.

However, Pandolfi IS one whose motives are very difficult to discern. Some of the alleged conflict between him, Doty, and Green seems like it could possibly be a smokescreen of some sort and the "conflict" manufactured. Pandolfi did state at one time that he was going to post some stuff about the whole affair here at ATS!

Does anyone know if he ever did?

Hi GUT this is a cool thread. I don't have a question answer, but I had been wondering a lot about a term I used to hear much in the early 1990's pertaining to our Jack Ryan of Ufos. It was "the ufo desk" (at the Agency). So, if he was in "the ufo desk" there, it means that was an official real job? (ala 'Agent Fox Mulder') Or was this term from the various Ufologists? (Or the "Aviary"?)
(Or maybe 'Armin Victorian')

reply to post by misschareesee2

Wild-crazy how we just crossed paths like that! I'm very pleased. I've had TWO rather striking coincidences today. This was the pleasant one lol.

"Ufo Desk" or more commonly, I think, the "Weird Desk" has been traditionally the guy stuck with gathering oddities as an adjunct to their regular duties and not seemingly very "official."

Nick Pope was the British MOD version at one point in his career. He was more "collator" than investigator. Dr. Green--as you note--was the American counterpart at one time, and seemed to have somewhat of a more active role in that position, although it only comprised a small part of his professional work according to him.

As an aside -

We are currently preparing extra material for the DVD release of Mirage Men. We are considering releasing the entire Richard Doty interview uncut and including extended interviews from others, some of whom did not make the final cut (including John Alexander).

Any thoughts, ATS people, on what you would be most interested in seeing? Or any particular thoughts on how the material should be presented?

RD - Co-producer/co-director, Mirage Men

Gotta love the way Bill Moore looked like Ringo Star in that footage too! Joking aside though, I think that was really well put together, great to see that the makers tried to be neutral, and interested in what the ex-government people said. I don't believe any of what they say obviously, but I try to stay open minded and often wonder why they're saying what they are doing. The ex-gov guy that talked about beings on Sirius towards the end seemed like an intelligent and straight up in some respects person too. I can't believe what he says, but as someone that was heavily wrapped up in the idea of beings on Sirius when I got into this years back (from Robert Temple's book, The Sirius Mystery.) I suppose it still has some appeal wondering exactly what's going on over in that part of space.

Just checked back and it's Walter Boseley. Might have to research him a little in the near future. Also saw Bill Moore again as I was skipping through and yep, he really does look like Ringo.

RoloD
Any thoughts, ATS people, on what you would be most interested in seeing? Or any particular thoughts on how the material should be presented?

RD - Co-producer/co-director, Mirage Men

Would clearly like to see more of what Boseley said, but either way, congrats on making something that worked so well. (And I'll try to make sure to buy a copy when it's released and I have some cash, because I genuinely think it was well done and I respect how you tried to stay neutral throughout.)

Ah! There's a book too. Will at least buy that as soon as I can.

Edit : Just found Mark Pilkington's Guardian page too (I'm a Guardian reader, had to check.) for anyone interested in some of his older reporting : www.theguardian.com...

It's in the section science > farout, didn't even know that section was there. Will have to have a look around now to see what's there. Edit 2 : hahah, looks like farout was actually Mark's own section in science because it just seems to be him there, awesome. Good to know The Guardian let him do that. I guess the MoD maintained a close eye too, along with their other various "interests" in what was being reported by the outlet back when he was there.

vbstrvct
But I'm a little confused as to where exactly you disagree with me. I understood your perspective but then you said "[t]he only other logical conclusion to me is he was never read into anything UFO related and feels comfortable openly talking about it as a scientist who happens to work for the government." And that's pretty much my position.

Sorry, I should have clarified a bit better. I think Green is clearly a disinfo agent. Too much access for too many years to simply be poking around the UFO field. He would have ruined his career or been shut up as I mentioned. I do accept the possibility your right thou. It's somewhat viable.

For me is looks pretty 'standard intel ops' to combine a counter-intel agent (Doty) with a Scientist (Green and/or Puthoff) to generate a meme/story and monitor the effect in a scientific way. I agree with you that exposing himself to the story was risky but personally think Doty didn't expect to get caught.

It's almost high noon somewhere on the planet...I better log off quickly before a stray bullet takes me out! There are way too many angles in this story for me to pull out any guns and start shooting.

RoloD
We are currently preparing extra material for the DVD release of Mirage Men. We are considering releasing the entire Richard Doty interview uncut and including extended interviews from others, some of whom did not make the final cut (including John Alexander).
Any thoughts, ATS people, on what you would be most interested in seeing? Or any particular thoughts on how the material should be presented?

Given the size of DVD's I would suggest you pack on every interview and tidbit you possibly can...even if you have to reduce the quality of the additional material to do it. You can market it as "Massive Bonus Material" to allow people to make their own minds up...which in the UFO field is like honey to a Bumble Bee. Investigators want to see the body language and parse every single word uttered. It would help drive sales of the DVD...IMO

robhinesWould clearly like to see more of what Boseley said, but either way, congrats on making something that worked so well.

Yes, we have Bosley telling a couple more stories which are indeed intriguing.

noeltrotsky
Given the size of DVD's I would suggest you pack on every interview and tidbit you possibly can...even if you have to reduce the quality of the additional material to do it. You can market it as "Massive Bonus Material" to allow people to make their own minds up...which in the UFO field is like honey to a Bumble Bee. Investigators want to see the body language and parse every single word uttered. It would help drive sales of the DVD...IMO

We probably have approaching 50 hours of material in all... not all of it riveting, of course.

I would like to suggest that there are some devastating revelations in this material that was not in the book or the film, but that would not be true. You might, however, perceive some subtle changes in credibility if we included some extended interviews (the more some speak, the less you believe them).

There may in fact be two editions - a regular one with 'extras', and an 'ubergeek' special with everything we can cram into it...

RoloD
Yes, we have Bosley telling a couple more stories which are indeed intriguing.

Good to know, thanks. Can't seem to find much on him after a quick google search, but am sure he's mentioned in a few threads on here so will search here too later.

RoloD
... it may be worth saying here that although Broadbent's findings seem conclusive, Victor Martinez vigourously denied that Doty was behind the Anonymous postings and claimed that Doty had offered his IP address to shield the other contributors from surveillance. Kit Green also supports this view and has little time for Broadbent's analysis.

These are interesting reactions from Martinez and Green from where I sit. One would expect a skeptical person involved with shadowy, government types like Martinez was to immediately question the Anonymous source. A Scientist with Green's pedigree doubly so. However both Martinez and Green come out with the dubious story that Doty "offered his IP address to shield the other contributors". It's rare for a respected Scientist to be public about supporting such a low credibility explanation...especially doing so dismissively and not the typical, scientific "provide a ton of evidence" response that is almost universal when being challenged.

I thought Green dismissed 90% of the Serpo story however...so why support Doty providing IP cover for the story???

Now it could be that Doty was providing cover for some connected source, however the evidence trail ends with Doty and neither him, Martinez or Green provide anything to show another contributor. Of course I doubt that I've seen all the info on this story, so if someone has something they have offered up to substantiate this story....do share!

robhines

RoloD
Yes, we have Bosley telling a couple more stories which are indeed intriguing.

Good to know, thanks. Can't seem to find much on him after a quick google search, but am sure he's mentioned in a few threads on here so will search here too later.

Walter Bosley frequently turns up on Greg Bishop's Radio Misterioso.

Here's a link Bosley

noeltrotsky
One would expect a skeptical person involved with shadowy, government types like Martinez was to immediately question the Anonymous source. A Scientist with Green's pedigree doubly so. However both Martinez and Green come out with the dubious story that Doty "offered his IP address to shield the other contributors". It's rare for a respected Scientist to be public about supporting such a low credibility explanation...

'A Scientist with Green's pedigree... a respected Scientist' Well, I think Green has high official credibility in certain areas, not in others. I think both Green and Doty enjoy telling stories...

torsion

robhines

RoloD
Yes, we have Bosley telling a couple more stories which are indeed intriguing.

Good to know, thanks. Can't seem to find much on him after a quick google search, but am sure he's mentioned in a few threads on here so will search here too later.

Walter Bosley frequently turns up on Greg Bishop's Radio Misterioso.

Here's a link Bosley

Cheers! Will have a look later on. He's written something about murders in California about a century ago with someone else, (that involves the occult and maybe some alien/ufo writing too.) but not sure if he's written anything specifically about Ufology. Will make sure to search later anyway.

robhines
Cheers! Will have a look later on. He's written something about murders in California about a century ago with someone else, (that involves the occult and maybe some alien/ufo writing too.) but not sure if he's written anything specifically about Ufology. Will make sure to search later anyway.

I don't think I have read anything from him on ufology specifically, except for a few comments here and there on Greg Bishop's Radio Misterioso website, but I've heard him talking about UFOs, ufology and his own beliefs on Radio Misterioso.

I even have a vague memory of one episode with Bill Moore and Bosley was present but I can't seem to find those episodes anymore. Here is a list of a few older episodes, including a couple, from 2005 and 2006, with Bill Moore, but the download links don't seem to be working anymore. I don't remember if it was on one of those that Bosley is present as well.

But what I can say is, from what I remember, what was represented in Mirage Men mirrors what I've heard him talk about on the subject. I've heard him tell the story that there are some alien (or non-human beings) living inside the earth, and I believe he briefly talks about that in Mirage Men. I've also heard him cryptically talked about how a family member was in the intelligence world and told him stories about UFOs and aliens and that's one of the reasons why he decided to work for the AFOSI.

Bosley sounds like a nice guy but my suspicion is that if he's not knowingly spreading disinformation, then he is at least unknowingly spreading it.

I already talked about this before: I believe the gatekeepers of the truth - whatever it may be - disinform their own people. Just because people like Doty or Bosley are in the AFOSI, or other intelligence agencies, doesn't mean they know everything an organization, or "the government," knows. Whatever the truth may be it's not only highly classified but also on strict need-to-know basis. So what people like Doty or Bosley think they know, or believe, I think it's either disinformation or myths and lore passed down from agents to agents.

That's why I don't adhere to the view that suggests that because someone is/was a government agent and is talking about UFOs, they necessarily know what they're talking about, or are purposely spreading disinformation and part of the cover up. There is a middle ground.

RoloD
Any thoughts, ATS people, on what you would be most interested in seeing? Or any particular thoughts on how the material should be presented?

Thank you for the feedback RD.

The thing I would most like to see (or read) is additional material on the AFOSI's PJ unit. Mark briefly talks about it, and I'm in agreement with his conclusion on that, but I suspect he already included all the information he could gather about that unit, so there's probably nothing else more to include on that.

vbstrvctI already talked about this before: I believe the gatekeepers of the truth - whatever it may be - disinform their own people. Just because people like Doty or Bosley are in the AFOSI, or other intelligence agencies, doesn't mean they know everything an organization, or "the government," knows. Whatever the truth may be it's not only highly classified but also on strict need-to-know basis. So what people like Doty or Bosley think they know, or believe, I think it's either disinformation or myths and lore passed down from agents to agents.

I think you are right on the money there.

The thing I would most like to see (or read) is additional material on the AFOSI's PJ unit. Mark briefly talks about it, and I'm in agreement with his conclusion on that, but I suspect he already included all the information he could gather about that unit, so there's probably nothing else more to include on that.

I'm afraid your suspicions are correct.

RoloD
'A Scientist with Green's pedigree... a respected Scientist' Well, I think Green has high official credibility in certain areas, not in others. I think both Green and Doty enjoy telling stories...

For the recored, I'm with noeltrotsky and want to see--or in the case of Green "hear"--as much of the interviews as possible. Sign me up for the "ubergeek" addition. I'll gladly pay the extra for that whatever it might be. I'm also very interested to hear what Col. Alexander had to say--even if not on the surface particularly revealing.

Now, to the above. If you would, Rolo, can you please elaborate a bit about Green not having high official credibility in other areas? Is there anything specific meant by that that we are not already aware of? Or is it a general statement?

The GUT
Now, to the above. If you would, Rolo, can you please elaborate a bit about Green not having high official credibility in other areas? Is there anything specific meant by that that we are not already aware of? Or is it a general statement?

Nothing specific you are not aware of - but having listened to Kit Green at length I found him rather less persuasive. I suppose my general (and fairly obvious) point is that is a mistake to think of the government and its agencies as a monolith and high credibility and knowledge in one area does not necessarily transfer to another.

noeltrotsky
...both Martinez and Green come out with the dubious story that Doty "offered his IP address to shield the other contributors". It's rare for a respected Scientist to be public about supporting such a low credibility explanation...especially doing so dismissively and not the typical, scientific "provide a ton of evidence" response that is almost universal when being challenged.

I thought Green dismissed 90% of the Serpo story however...so why support Doty providing IP cover for the story???

Now it could be that Doty was providing cover for some connected source, however the evidence trail ends with Doty and neither him, Martinez or Green provide anything to show another contributor.

That makes a lot of sense to me. It would be a mistake to think Dr. Green doesn't understand at least the basics of counterintelligence and more.

He's mentioned somewhere that he's more than once reported suspicious persons or persons who have asked particular questions to the proper channels.

If the SERPO allegations did contain some information that he believed to be true--and as such obviously top secret--I find it hard to believe he would take it on himself to "get to the bottom of it" as it were. AND, as you highlight, use Doty's IP as cover for a suspect source peddling--at least--90% b.s.

Without official sanction to "investigate," that would actually make him complicit would it not? It would certainly seem to place his security clearance in jeopardy...which doesn't seem to be the case, eh?

The simplest answer is that the Doty providing his IP address to Mr. Anonymous excuse is a poor and desperate attempt at deflection.

Ponder this: Dr. Green was FULLY aware of the Doty/MJ-12 connection. Then along comes it's fraternal twin SERPO and Doty yet again. Seriously, Dr. Green doesn't come across that naive in any way, shape, or form. Quite the opposite…he seems to continue to pull the wool over the eyes of some pretty good researchers.

To focus on Doty--and let Green skate as some bumbling do-good who got blindsided by SERPO (again remember his familiarity with MJ-12, Bennewitz, etc) stretches the mind in light of his credentials, security clearances, and intellect.