Mirage Men is out.

The GUT
Wouldn't that suggest, then, that they were the creators of Serpo in some cockamie attempt to dislodge top-secret ufo truth?

I don't discard that possibility, but if they intended SERPO to be a counterintelligence operation why not just send the material anonymously to Martinez (or whoever) and see where it went from there? There was no need for any of them to directly get in touch with the people that received the material. Just use a cut-out. Why risk exposing your whole organization (in this case, supposedly, Green's group)? That is basic OPSEC.

I concede the possibility of #1, but rank them just the opposite. Again, I find it hard to imagine there wouldn't be professional consequences unless Kit was inline with protocol.

Look at Paul Bennewitz, not only didn't they stop him but they actively encouraged him to continue his research and share his findings with everyone who would listen. They even gave him a grant, if I remember correctly. And Paul certainly wasn't "inline with protocol." He was an unknowing victim.

Maybe what Green and others were claiming was already government's disinformation - unbeknownst to them - and in that case, why stop them? I just don't think the absence of professional consequences necessarily means a person is a knowingly participant in an official operation.

But I don't discard any possibility.

vbstrvct
I don't discard that possibility, but if they intended SERPO to be a counterintelligence operation why not just send the material anonymously to Martinez (or whoever) and see where it went from there? There was no need for any of them to directly get in touch with the people that received the material. Just use a cut-out. Why risk exposing your whole organization (in this case, supposedly, Green's group)? That is basic OPSEC.

I think they did believe they had a sufficient cut-out of sorts. I can elaborate more on that and the other questions you raise as regards OPSEC and such, but I'm in the process of putting together a "best case" and prefer to develop that for just a bit longer before unveiling it.

Look at Paul Bennewitz, not only didn't they stop him but they actively encouraged him to continue his research and share his findings with everyone who would listen. They even gave him a grant, if I remember correctly. And Paul certainly wasn't "inline with protocol." He was an unknowing victim.

Paul wasn't a gubmint intel boy, though. And he was apparently acting in accordance with the script that was perpetrated on him, which brings us to:

Maybe what Green and others were claiming was already government's disinformation - unbeknownst to them - and in that case, why stop them?

It certainly remains on the table. However, what evidentiary items there are in this wilderness of mirrors, specifically in relation to Serpo, seems to have--for the most part--a consistent theme. I posted some of that here a couple of pages or so ago. There is still, in my mind, the outside chance that the materials and operation were an attempt to flush out foreign spies, but the evidence is sparse at best and doesn't seem to fit the overall picture. I've tried to make that fit, but so far I personally can't.

Still taking notes on MOD. I should be able to throw some interesting quotes up tomorrow.

Bit of pure conjecture: Vallee paints the UFO phenomena, good or evil, as kryptonite for TPTB. Suppose what we're seeing here is actually the coping mechanism...

reply to post by The GUT


I was (and still am) in personal contact with Kit during the SERPO episode and can assure you he was not "dazzled" by the b.s. as you put it. His first comment to me about it included the words, and I quote, "patently ridiculous" that was in regard to 90% of the SERPO literature. There was a few interesting bits included in the SERPO literature, very few, but they were intriguing to him.

IN any case I agree with you it's a whole lot of bunk that at the end of the day doesn't matter.

reply to post by 1ofthe9



What do you mean by
"as kryptonite for TPTB." Can you elucidate a bit on that statement.

I am telling you, you have to put all this stuff in context that goes way back.

Read Sinister Forces and please read, Stargate conspiracy. Some of you younger guys might not have read that. And then Mirage men

These guys are likely a part or inheritors of the Puharich legacy.

He was one of their first voodoo priests and John Alexander is his inheritor
They have the same history

What that will lead to is what Moore was trying to do.
Get close to what the Gov really knows.

All of these types were around this alien contact scenarios and Puharich was the first and likely sanctioned by the Gov.

It’s the same MO.

And who was sent around to check out people like Lear, but Vallee!

If you just concentrate on this caper one looses the big picture, imo.

This is vital because what we don’t understand is that this UFO stuff is probably as alien to the gov as it is to us and they may not be as knowledgeable as we think they are.

So when something weird comes along they want to be in on it like the Puharich Nine story.

The gov may have tore their britches with you know HU

Or the gov is truly in submission to the Alien presence.

As to Schneider and Cooper, I'm pretty sure they were just charlatans. John Lear is an attention-seeker or a company man, or both. All their tales were pretty much a re-telling or expansion of Bennewitz's beliefs regarding alien underground bases, and those beliefs were entirely fueled by disinformation. Until something credible makes me think otherwise my opinion is that everything those guys ever talked about was BS.

reply to post by vbstrvct



I know these guys were out of it. My point is that if they were spreading this disinformation than what they created in Lear, Schneider and Cooper should be looked at.

No connection? But Vallee went around looking for these guys...while pretending to being Mr. objective to interview, why

Springer
I was (and still am) in personal contact with Kit during the SERPO episode and can assure you he was not "dazzled" by the b.s. as you put it. His first comment to me about it included the words, and I quote, "patently ridiculous" that was in regard to 90% of the SERPO literature.

Hi Springer,

In order to help me prepare for the duel to which I've been challenged by The Gut, would it be possible for you to ask Kit where we can find what he considers to be the fullest and most accurate account of his involvement in ufology - ideally an account adopting a "just the facts ma'am" approach setting out the basic facts relating to that involvement.

I think I've read most of the books that discuss Kit Green in a UFO and/or Remote Viewing context (I'm happy to supply a fairly long list of page references to discussions in relevant books, some of which have been mentioned in this thread or previous threads) plus most of the relevant material online (e.g. here, the Reality Uncovered website and forum, Gary Bekkum's blog etc) but I haven't really found any account or interview that grapples with a number of basic factual issues. Perhaps Kit is aware of something written by him or about him that I've missed so far?

At the risk of putting words in The Gut's mouth (which he can correct if I'm wrong) The Gut appears to consider it beyond doubt that Kit Green is involved in spreading disinformation within ufology and that my position (of doubting whether Kit Green has spread disinformation) ignores the evidence against Kit Green.

Willtell
reply to post by 1ofthe9

 

What do you mean by
"as kryptonite for TPTB." Can you elucidate a bit on that statement.

edit on 16-1-2014 by Willtell because: (no reason given)

The Establishment is rational, the phenomena is irrational and threatens the legitimacy of the Establishment. My hunch is that by wrapping the phenomena in the 'little green men' narrative, TPTB 'name the unnamable' and put something in context that has thus far escaped rational explanation.

I'm pleased someone else has read Sinister Forces. I have yet to read The Stargate Conspiracy, but I'm keen to because the whole Pulharich story is pretty interesting if nothing else. Are you familiar with the Gulf Breeze Six? I really want to get to the bottom of the whole 'space kids' thing but there are very few sources that it appears I can turn to...

On the MOD front: I have a hunch that the 'Major' Vallee talks to is Grady McMurtry. I can't be sure, but given the circles Jacques was moving in at the time it would seem to fit.

On another interesting note, I believe the Gary S. Bekkum books I've read recently suggest that Pat Price was passing classified info on to Scientology...

Does anyone have any more information about Jack Verona? I'm pondering starting a thread dedicated to the guy...

Springer
reply to post by The GUT

 

I was (and still am) in personal contact with Kit during the SERPO episode and can assure you he was not "dazzled" by the b.s. as you put it. His first comment to me about it included the words, and I quote, "patently ridiculous" that was in regard to 90% of the SERPO literature. There was a few interesting bits included in the SERPO literature, very few, but they were intriguing to him.

IN any case I agree with you it's a whole lot of bunk that at the end of the day doesn't matter.

Would it be possible for Kit to pop in and discuss this stuff with us, or for you to ask a question or two on our behalf? I fear that might be the only way to settle things.

Plus I really want to see what he knows about the Sealab II accident. >_>

1ofthe9
Would it be possible for Kit to pop in and discuss this stuff with us, or for you to ask a question or two on our behalf? I fear that might be the only way to settle things.

I would also be interested in hearing Kit's comments but I'm not sure how realistic it is to think things would be "settled" with Kit's comments.

Even if he had a hand in creating SERPO - which I personally doubt - I'm pretty sure he will deny it either way. Won't we be exactly where we are now? Besides, there will always be people who, regardless of what Kit would confirm or deny, say that he is a government agent and nothing he says can be trusted.

It's very hard to fully resolve anything in the UFO field because there's usually a huge confirmation bias involved.

However, I do hope he wants to offer his comments, and that I'm absolutely wrong in this estimation so we can move on from Kit Green, because I don't think he is involved in the cover up - of what exactly, I don't know - or that he knows as much as some people believe.

vbstrvct

1ofthe9
Would it be possible for Kit to pop in and discuss this stuff with us, or for you to ask a question or two on our behalf? I fear that might be the only way to settle things.

I would also be interested in hearing Kit's comments but I'm not sure how realistic it is to think things would be "settled" with Kit's comments.

I wouldn't expect Kit's comments to "settle things".

However, like Nature, ufology abhors a vacuum. In the absence of any explanation being offered publicly for various matters by those involved, there are plenty of people within ufology that conclude that the real explanation involves a conspiracy. It happens all the time.

IsaacKoi
In order to help me prepare for the duel to which I've been challenged by The Gut, would it be possible for you to ask Kit where we can find what he considers to be the fullest and most accurate account of his involvement in ufology - ideally an account adopting a "just the facts ma'am" approach setting out the basic facts relating to that involvement.

Yeah, Springer, give this tinhorn dandy his last request before I send him to Boot Hill! I jest!!

I hope my respect for IsaacKoi is apparent. I have, and continue, to learn a LOT from him. Maybe, just maybe, I can return that favor at least once. As iron sharpens iron, so one man does to another.

Actually, I read Springer's post this morning and basically the same question crossed my mind, in addition to the thought that maybe Springer has been made privy to more than we have? Because, frankly, Kit's explanations seem to have shifted over the years and/or in relation to who he's talking to.

It leaves questions and, I believe, an understandable curiosity in some of us with an interest in all things ufological.

Springer
reply to post by The GUT

 

I was (and still am) in personal contact with Kit during the SERPO episode and can assure you he was not "dazzled" by the b.s. as you put it.

And I'm sure it's obvious that I don't believe that he was dazzled. I'm hard on him, but that shouldn't be confused with I don't think he's brilliant and impressive. That's the High Noon I truly yearn for: To publicly go one-on-one in the streets of Laredo with The Serpo Kid!

His first comment to me about it included the words, and I quote, "patently ridiculous" that was in regard to 90% of the SERPO literature. There was a few interesting bits included in the SERPO literature, very few, but they were intriguing to him.

Which brings me to a major point: The evidence that Dr. Green had some kind of hand in facilitating this information being released into the public--of which he alleges to you to have known to be 90% "patently absurd"--is without any serious contention.

Which then brings us to Isaac's basic question which he relates as "WHY?" Maybe there's a noble reason behind it, but we can theorize "why's" all day long today and tomorrow and still barely fill the bottom of a saloon horse trough, pardners.

My conviction is that the only "why's" worth mentioning are the ones that include evidentiary items and can be elucidated within the context of those items.

Should it be my blood which enriches the dusty street, please play this song over the closing credits:

"Oh bury me not, on the lone prairie.
These words came low, and mournfully
From the pallid lips, of a youth who lay,
On his dying bed, at the close of day."


Fade to Black.

Some more MOD points:

1) Jacques Bergier apparently tied Nixon to the Blatavsky Foundation.
2) Jim Hurtak (friend of Pulharich) tried to recruit Vallee to some weird occult-contactee thing that was supposed to influence society.
3) The Dan Dugan story involved a Bell Helicopter employee (back to The Nine we go).
4) Human multilations associated with UMMO? wat

GUT I'm looking forward to your input on this stuff.

IsaacKoi
I wouldn't expect Kit's comments to "settle things".

It would seem he brought that on himself. However, I am more than willing to listen and consider any 'final word' he has on the matter. Further, I do believe he has given statements that are worthy of consideration...just not about Serpo so far.

However, like Nature, ufology abhors a vacuum. In the absence of any explanation being offered publicly for various matters by those involved, there are plenty of people within ufology that conclude that the real explanation involves a conspiracy. It happens all the time.

It only happens some of the time with some of us. For example: That Kit Green--and the Team of 5--were conspiring to release & manage information that Kit believed to be 90% "patently absurd" would fall under the broader range and definition of conspiracy.

Only "motive" remains as a serious question.

The GUT
It only happens some of the time with some of us. For example: That Kit Green--and the Team of 5--were conspiring to release & manage information that Kit believed to be 90% "patently absurd" would fall under the broader range and definition of conspiracy.

That is one interpretation. An alternative interpretation, can be made by reading - as mentioned by Isaac - Gary Bekkum's articles and published e mails between Pandolfi, Kit Green, Doty and Bekkum.

Here are a few excerpts from the published emails to substantiate an alternate interpretation of SERPO/Team of 5:

From: Ronald Pandolfi
To: ‘RICK DOTY’
Cc: Christopher Green
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 18:17
Subject: RE: Keep me out of this

Rick,

I am not interested in whether you are involved in the UFO enigma and/or working for the CIA, DIA, OSI, or other US intelligence agency. What concerns me is whether you are working for a foreign intelligence service. That has been my sole interest in you from when I first heard your name and it has been the sole focus of my interactions with OSI and FBI concerning your behaviors and whereabouts.

Recently Dr. Green relayed to me a claim attributed to you that two DIA employees had identified John Gannon as the source of the SERPO story and Mr. Anonymous.

As I anticipated the two names you provided to Dr. Green are not those of DIA employees.

...

From: Ronald Pandolfi [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:30 PM
To: ‘caryn anscomb’; Green, Christopher; ‘Dan Smith’
Subject: RE: FMS?

All,

I just wanted to let you know that during the past few days I have been involved in several e-mail exchanges with Rick Doty. In those exchanges, Rick has claimed not to have accessed SANDIA, LLNL or sensitive military installations since his retirement from USAF. He also has claimed to have no involvement with UFOs since January 2006, no knowledge of the source of the names of DIA employees linked to SERPO or the identification of John Gannon as Mr. Anonymous. These claims appear to conflict with what most of us generally perceive as reality. Nevertheless I have no strong evidence that counters his claims. I would appreciate photos or other evidence that I could share with Rick that might seem to counter his claims. I certainly want to extend to Rick an opportunity to demonstrate he is not involved with SERPO or UFO stories as he claims. But if true, then who was it that escorted John L. into sensitive military facilities? [vbstrvct note: John L. = John Lundberg, one of the producers of Mirage Men]

...

From: Ronald Pandolfi [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 9:36 PM
To: Green, Christopher
Subject: RE: FMS?

Kit,

I certainly don’t want you to have to take the time to relay information that is not needed. Therefore I am tying to keep the focus on just the issue of claims that DIA employees were in communications with Doty concerning the activities of John Gannon or any other personnel involved in classified work. I have independent evidence now that Doty has been using at least three separate e-mail accounts and false identities and that at least one of his objectives has been to elicit information concerning classified activities at sensitive facilities. Most likely he is just a kook, but he may be a dangerous kook. Your observations that he is intelligent, dedicated, hard working, and effective in his police work has me particularly worried. In his “ufo” work he appears very unsophisticated, sloppy, and lazy.

...

From Ronald Pandolfi Sat Feb 24 17:30:54 2007

Gary,

None of the e-mails I provided to Dan involved government activities. They involved personal communications between me, Dan, Kit, and Rick concerning fabricated e-mail accounts used to disseminate false documents about UFOs, SERPO, etc. for which government (intelligence) officials such as John Gannon were falsely implicated. Kit had brought this to my attention as a private matter requesting my assistance in tracking down the perpetrators. All signs indicated Doty was involved directly or indirectly. From the beginning I made it clear to Doty that I was not interested in any aspects of the subjects listed above, only the names of those who were involved in fabricating and disseminating the false documents, and that any information he provided concerning these documents I would publicly release via realityuncovered.com. I provided the documents to Dan with the understanding that he would provide them to Ryan Dube as earlier agreed. Kit subsequently reviewed the documents and requested that Dan not release them because doing so might hinder his personal investigations. Form [sic] the start this was a personal activity conducted at the request of an old friend and mentor, Kit Green, to protect another old friend and mentor, John Gannon from being falsely implicated in this nonsense.

Based on these conversations I suggest this alternative interpretation for the "Team of 5":
Doty was spreading the SERPO material from anonymous email accounts or even impersonating other officials - probably to make it seem like SERPO was being corroborated by multiple intelligence sources, or to pin the whole thing on them. Doty contacts Victor Martinez and says he can help determine the source and veracity of SERPO.

Doty at some point sent it to Kit Green and claimed some sources had given him the material. Kit Green started investigating, talking to some of his friends and contacts to determine the veracity of the material. At the same time he is analyzing Kit Green's communications with Puthoff (and others maybe) to see what they're saying about SERPO.

Notice that this is the same MO the AFOSI - in Doty - used on Bennewitz: Feed him the disinformation, pretend you had nothing to do with it and you want to get to the bottom of it, and monitor his actions and reactions (through Moore and surveillance, etc).

Then Doty probably brought in the patsies/conduits (Martinez and Bill Ryan) to the conversation with Kit Green and Puthoff. Doty tells Kit Green that Martinez and Ryan were receiving the SERPO information and they all need to work together to determine who was behind SERPO. The Team of 5 is created.

Then you leak those emails and you make it seem like they were all working together. And they were, in the right context.

I'm not saying this is what happened, only that I think one can make this interpretation. But I am of the opinion that Kit Green probably didn't have anything to do with SERPO, and that SERPO, ultimately, is not really important.

One other point I forgot to mention:

I don't remember exactly where I read it - and I can't be bothered to look, to be honest - but someone said they noticed that some information that was being discussed in the ATS SERPO thread was being incorporated, or tailored to fit what was being discussed in the thread, into subsequent SERPO releases.

Again, that's the same MO the AFOSI (and Doty) used: they would get information back from the UFO community through Moore and other channels, and incorporate it in their fabricated documents, and show it back to the researchers.

vbstrvct
That is one interpretation. An alternative interpretation, can be made by reading - as mentioned by Isaac - Gary Bekkum's articles and published e mails between Pandolfi, Kit Green, Doty and Bekkum.

That's not an "alternative explanation." That's focusing on one small point of suspect information that might or might not have some bearing, but fails to address the totality of elements present.

If memory serves, Gannon's name was only brought into the conversation after the To5 were already active and under scrutiny. That should raise an alarm bell at the very least.

The To5 emails--including Kit's--also seem clearly indicative of more than that one scenario. We also have Springer's statement that alleges that Kit saw details in the Serpo story that he believed might have some truth to them. So, at best, the 'old friend Gannon' proffering doesn't cover the scope of known information and lacks full explanatory power. Meaning the Gannon excuse doesn't "solve" the outstanding burning questions at all.

Also: Kit continued his stellar support of Doty even after the alleged DIA investigation. That thought given further weight by the info that does suggest Doty was the originator of bringing Gannon's name into it. (Wait…which friend are you helping, Kit?)

In addition, Pandolfi seems to have been a little less than candid about his exact credentials at the time--and since--as well. That's a dangling question that, as far as I'm aware, has never been clarified.

Bekkum does, apparently, receive information from some of the Avarians, but he's also in much the same position as Dan Smith (the so-called "Chicken Little") and subject to carefully-crafted "spin" it appears.

Also of note: Bill Ryan & Victor Martinez were being used to disseminate information, not actively investigate, so what do we make of that? If I were an apologist, I could do a triple-gainer with a half-twist and try and make that somehow fit, but it would stretch most thinker's credulity and probably result in an epic belly-flop.

Lastly, NEVER forget the lineage of MJ-12 to SERPO and Doty's more than sufficiently documented role. Kit Green is FULLY aware of that detail. Let that sink in. Did I mention let that sink in?

Now: Am I safe to conclude at this point that we can now discuss--and dissect--the "Team of 5" emails in this thread? If so, this discussion is finally going to get interesting…and revealing I think.

The GUT
Now: Am I safe to conclude at this point that we can now discuss--and dissect--the "Team of 5" emails in this thread? If so, this discussion is finally going to get interesting…and revealing I think.

Well, I haven't been disciplined for linking to those emails and repeatedly referring to them here on ATS.

It's been a year or two since the last time I read them properly, so I'll probably go through them again at the weekend. If you have any points that you think I should have in mind when I do that, just let me know.

reply to post by IsaacKoi

Will do. It's increasingly apparent to me that I'm going to have to go big or go home in a pinewood box haha. Or maybe that's an "unobtainium" box. If we CAN bring the totality of extant information here, then maybe ATS is--in one respect--the best venue. (Do we still have a debate forum here?)

However, for the sake of seriousness, full disclosure of backstory, and the hope that we can be joined by some of the pioneering researchers, IsaacKoi.com would seem to be better suited.

I'll email you a little later this evening for planning purposes, and I'll start my note-taking on those To5 emails, but it might take me a couple of days to forward discussion points therein.

I'm having fun so far, I sincerely hope you are as well, sir.