Mirage Men is out.

RoloD
Nothing specific you are not aware of - but having listened to Kit Green at length I found him rather less persuasive. I suppose my general (and fairly obvious) point is that is a mistake to think of the government and its agencies as a monolith and high credibility and knowledge in one area does not necessarily transfer to another.

I agree. I'm just saying the man may make operational mistakes but he ain't no sucker.

So, after listening to him at length and having found him "rather less persuasive," then that should surely raise some red flags on the degree of culpability he might have in SERPO I would think.

Did you find Doty more persuasive and strategically sophisticated than Kit? Kit kept both Mark & John on the edge of their seats, and even sparked some fear with his "disclosure" allegory. I can't remember them reporting anything close to that with Doty.

noeltrotsky
It's almost high noon somewhere on the planet...I better log off quickly before a stray bullet takes me out! There are way too many angles in this story for me to pull out any guns and start shooting.

Lol! But, helllllll no, you already stepped into the UFO. K. Corral!! Kill or be Killed ha.

Great thread, I've been lurking since the opening post. Sometimes just studying and researching all the characters in "ufology" is more entertaining than worrying about what, who and where are the ufo's...Seems that we've picked up some really knowledgeable new forum members recently...

Toxicsurf
Great thread, I've been lurking since the opening post. Sometimes just studying and researching all the characters in "ufology" is more entertaining than worrying about what, who and where are the ufo's...Seems that we've picked up some really knowledgeable new forum members recently...

In truth I think I've run across enough material for a book or two. I just wish I wasn't cursed with severe writers block. If I had the ability, I would totally try to do a investigative journalism piece on the whole 'star kids' thing and the intelligence amplification work. At minimum I suspect there might be a hushed up abuse scandal there. Walter H. Breen was a NAMBLA member and active pedophile. His involvement in a government project that revolved around children is setting off alarm klaxons in my head imho.

'UFOlogy' really isn't a monolithic thing. Its surprisingly multi-layered, and the boundaries are not firmly established. We have something like three, almost autonomous things at work here:

1) The cultural narrative/meme.
2) Active disinformation efforts.
3) The actual phenomena.

The cultural narrative has actually taken on an independent life from the actual phenomena. This is something that very few people seem to be aware of, and it really needs to be called out more frequently.

reply to post by 1ofthe9

The cultural narrative has actually taken on an independent life from the actual phenomena. This is something that very few people seem to be aware of, and it really needs to be called out more frequently.

I agree. I often think about how powerfully influential the '50's flying saucer films and Spielberg's was, to my mind. Back in the late 1970's, when I witnessed a formation of round things go over me, I immediately thought I was witnessing alien space faring ships from other planets, even though......these orbs could have been, like, sky ghosts of some kind for example.

It is said that falsehood portends the existence of truth.

I always felt that the counterintelligence UFO activity, such as the Bennowitz affair particularly, may be based on truthful incidences of alien UFO events and some official acts of government.
Indeed they: MJ12, Serpo, Aquarius etc. are all an attempt TO HIDE TRUTH WITHIN A CONVOLUTED STREAM OF A BODY GUARD OF LIES AND MISINFORMATION.

I think examining the timeline of events within UFO history and the stream of lies or distortions may give us a clue of what the initial truth is and what the reprobates are TRYING TO HIDE.

Right before the revelation of MJ12 AND THE Bennowitz affair was information by Wilton Smith a Canadian Ufologist of credentialed government service and a book by a Canadian researcher Arthur Bray.www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.virtuallystrange.net...
www.roswellproof.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

In 1978, Canadian researcher Arthur Bray uncovered previously classified Canadian UFO documents naming Dr. Vannevar Bush as heading a highly secret UFO investigation group within the U.S. Research and Development Board. No name for the group was given. Bray published excerpts of the documents in his 1979 book, The U.F.O. Connection.The author of some of the documents, Wilbert Smith, at the time was the chief radio engineer and telecommunications expert working in the Canadian Department of Transport and later headed Canadian government UFO investigations such as Project Magnet. Skeptical researcher Christopher D. Allan has claimed that Smith would not have had any security clearances and concludes that there is no way any such group headed by Bush could have come to his knowledge. On the contrary, Smith's claims could have inspired the MJ-12 hoax that followed soon after Bray made the documents public. However, there were other classified Canadian documents besides Smith's referencing Bush and the group. Furthermore Canadian researcher Grant Cameron has also pointed out that Smith must have had a high security clearance because he monitored all radio frequencies in Canada and ran the top secret "Radio Ottawa," wherein Soviet radio communications were intercepted and Canadian spies could also radio in information to intelligence services. Smith also claimed to have communicated with aliens, using something called "Tensor Beam transmission.

The earliest appearance of the term "MJ Twelve" was a message of unclear origin dated November 17, 1980. This so-called "Project Aquarius" Teletype message had been given to Albuquerque physicist and businessman Paul Bennewitz in November, 1980, by U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations counterintelligence officer Richard C. Doty. Bennewitz had photographed and recorded electronic data of what he believed to be UFO activity over nearby Kirtland AFB, a sensitive nuclear facility. Bennewitz reported his findings to officials at Kirtland, including Doty. In 1989, the UFOlogist Bill Moore claimed that the documents were actually a hoax created by Doty as part of an attempt to drive Bennewitz insane.[6] One sentence in the lengthy Teletype message read, "The official US Government policy and results of Project Aquarius is [sic] still classified TOP SECRET with no dissemination outside channels and with access restricted to 'MJ TWELVE.'"[7] “Because the entire MJ-12 affair made its first appearance only a year after Bray had made public the incriminating Canadian documents about the secret UFO committee, one theory is that the Project Aquarius Teletype message was part of a counterintelligence hoax to discredit the information in the just-revealed Canadian documents. Thus the various MJ-12 documents could be fake, but the secret committee described in the verified Canadian documents could still have been real.

Wilbert Smith was a Canadian radio engineer of high standing within the Canadian government during the 1950s and a high-level UFO researcher. In fact it could be said he was in charge of Canadian UFO studies between 1950 and 1962. For much more detail about Wilbert Smith the person and his relation to UFOs, see Grant Cameron's extensive research at his presidential ufos Web site (more Smith articles here on Canadian cover-up).. Click here for an interview with Cameron on Smith (subscription now required). Also check out Cameron's CD of Smith audios and documents. Cameron's revised website also has various downloadable Smith documents. Among Smith's more conventional jobs, he was the Senior Radio Engineer at the Canadian Department of Transport and was responsible for AM/FM frequency allotment in Canada. A little known fact about Smith, according to Cameron, was that he also ran "Radio Ottawa" where Canadian spies radioed in, and where the Canadians intercepted Soviet communications. This put Smith in the position of knowing some of Canada's most highly classified secrets. Smith's personal and related Canadian government UFO documents are among the most important ever found, since they state unambiguously that flying saucers were quite real and they were being secretly studied by both the U.S. and Canadian governments. Smith's direct involvement in UFO research began in September of 1950 while he was in Washington D.C. attending a conference. Smith read Frank Scully's just-published "Behind the Flying Saucers," that among things stated that there had been saucer crashes in New Mexico and that the saucers utilized magnetic principles in their propulsion. As an engineer, the latter assertion particularly interested Smith, who had some ideas of his own on how this might work, and had already started preliminary studies within the Dept. of Transport. Trying to get at the truth of the matter, Smith had the Canadian embassy in Washington discretely contact sources within the U.S. government. Among Canadian embassy personnel named in Smith's collection of correspondence are Gordon Cox, Lt. Col. Bremner, a military attache, and Dr. Arnauld Wright, Canadian Defence Research Board (DRB) Liaison Officer. Another name to pop up frequently was Dr. Omand Solandt, Chairman of the Canadian DRB. Wright was the liaison with Solandt. “

So we may have here the element of truth within the spectrum of disinformation that the US GOVERNMENT and or others wants to obscure.

Though further research must be done since Serpo was a full 25 years after the Bennowitz affair and the initial revelations of MJ12 and related misinformation.

The question is what is Serpo obscuring?

Using the same formula as above, some legitimate UFO information or events that happened before the Bennowitz and MJ12 era, what occurred in UFO events and lore close to but before Serpo (2005?)

Maybe looking in events outside of the US may provide answers

reply to post by Willtell

The question is what is Serpo obscuring?

As for me, I have no hard stance on all this ufo-and-related biz, and am open, but I actually believe whistleblower Gary McKinnon. Re the Non Terrestrial Officers. There could be that "breakaway civilization", something going on like that, and how Terran versus "alien" who knows. Maybe SERPO relates to that? Ya know, in a way.

reply to post by Willtell

One fact about the Wilbert Smith memo that's often overlooked, is that he's discussing the Aztec hoax as if it were historical fact. With him using that as a cornerstone, nothing else he says much matters.
This real memo with false conclusions was used as a foundation to support the construction of the MJ-12 group, false everything.

Even by talking about this stuff we are interfacing with the control system. I wonder if Doty has seen this thread. :p

This is another reason I've been thinking of the whole research network I've been kicking around. We might be able to stem the tide of material that the meme-spinners can use against researchers if we can control the information that they had access to. Keel and Vallee seem to have made effective us of it...

CardDown
reply to post by Willtell

 

One fact about the Wilbert Smith memo that's often overlooked, is that he's discussing the Aztec hoax as if it were historical fact. With him using that as a cornerstone, nothing else he says much matters.
This real memo with false conclusions was used as a foundation to support the construction of the MJ-12 group, false everything.

That memo is still the foundation that I use to accept the existence of the MJ 12 group. I understand your concerns about it but they don't invalidate the whole memo for me personally. I think a ton of the MJ 12 papers are fakes meant to cast doubt on the whole groups existence, a standard counter intel op to cover up a real exposure.

Excellent point thou.

Willtell
The question is what is Serpo obscuring?

It's an interesting question. If you believe the Serpo meme was a fiction created to feed everyone, and I do, then why is very interesting. Of course simply creating a storm of focus on it might help some other recent revelation slip past, but that answer isn't high on my potential list.

Let's pretend we are Doty's boss....whoever that may have been...
To trace back to Doty's mission objectives you have to understand if the Serpo plant was designed to be exposed or not...as objectives would be very different in either case. In my mind the Serpo story was not designed to be exposed. The scrambling after the exposure seems indicative of damage control. It being exposed didn't harm anyone's previous research (typical credibility attack operation), except for long standing government employees. One could argue here Martinez and his list might have been a target of the Op to take his credibility down and destroy the collaboration the list was generating...if you believe Serpo was designed to be exposed.

The scientists involved clearly had an interest in exercising control over a very diverse UFO research field. They picked a medium (discussion list) involving many of the days top researchers. They doled out the information slowly instead of over one big leak, to dominate discussion for months and months. They picked a story completely unheard of before this plant (while people have claimed to visit other worlds never a government op doing that). All clues to their objectives.

I'd argue that this disinfo op is quite different than expected. It didn't seem to muddy the water around any specific event. It didn't seem focused on current major research topics to direct that research away from something important. The Serpo creation itself was highly detailed, a dangerous move by someone trying to put one over on so many researchers.

It seems to me to be a concerted and new style of effort by some scientists to direct the prevailing thoughts in the UFO field. To plant the idea that the government has significant control of the UFO situation. To reduce the fear factor of an 'alien agenda' and possibly counter the strong abduction research by injecting friendly collaboration with a group of aliens.

I'm sure others have some great thoughts too...

I realize this thread is 20 pages long and I haven't got to every page so forgive me if it has already been addressed. But two related caveats are:

Doty is a liar, everyone is aware. Doty claims he had a tiff with the gov and now speaks the truth. Doty is also known as a previous disinfo agent. Doty currently says there is truth to some of the disinfo he was spreading and that for the most part it's all true. And the reason he publicly says so now, is because of his disagreement with his overseers.

#2: If the official story is that the alien cover stories/disinfo was used merely as a means to protect cold war and post WW2 technologies, and all the available evidence (or lack thereof) and the entire UFO fascination has all come from these lies.

It presents us with an odd observation.

Either A) Doty is still continuing his disinfo campaigns but off the books.

or B) He's partially telling the truth.

If it's (A) that means there is still an effort to stir up disinfo, but it certainly can't be to protect military or tech secrets because the military and electronic world has evolved so far beyond what was even thought as possible since the 50s/60s. (Ok but no flying cars I digress) The methods to protect secrets has come so far ahead in recent years, alien cover stories seem like a really weak tool that they would have to use still.

And if it's (B) he's telling the truth. (Which I find doubtful but who knows.)

The main question is, why all the effort? Why so much effort to make aliens a laughable subject when it's obvious that it cannot serve the same stated purpose as it once did?

misschareesee2
... but I actually believe whistleblower Gary McKinnon. Re the Non Terrestrial Officers. There could be that "breakaway civilization", something going on like that, and how Terran versus "alien" who knows. Maybe SERPO relates to that? Ya know, in a way.

I like McKinnon's discovered list and think it's amazingly strong evidence. The strength of the US governments response against him is very solid proof he saw things very dear to their hearts.

I can't buy the Serpo story however, so can't make a link there. The Serpo story starts about 3.5 years after McKinnon's hacking revelations. I had the feeling that the McKinnon leak was well contained by that point and wouldn't need a fake cover story created to hide his revelations. Of course you could believe the Serpo story and that McKinnon got the list of participants!

The GUT
Did you find Doty more persuasive and strategically sophisticated than Kit? Kit kept both Mark & John on the edge of their seats, and even sparked some fear with his "disclosure" allegory. I can't remember them reporting anything close to that with Doty.

Speaking personally, and of course I was not present at the interview, I find Green no more or less persuasive than Doty. Both are great story tellers but you could say Doty is more consistent (of course, let's not mistake consistency for veracity).

boncho
Doty is a liar, everyone is aware....
Either A) Doty is still continuing his disinfo campaigns but off the books.
or B) He's partially telling the truth...
The main question is, why all the effort? Why so much effort to make aliens a laughable subject when it's obvious that it cannot serve the same stated purpose as it once did?

This is the conundrum of the self-confessed liar. If he was lying then, why believe him now?

Putting aside his gulling of Bennewitz, Moore and Howe, I would put the heart of the puzzle in these terms:

1) Doty believes the story of ET contact from Roswell on and it is true.
2) Doty believes the story and it isn't true. (Doty as patsy)
3) Doty doesn't believe the story. (Doty as ongoing misinformer)

Serpo to me seems of minor importance - a curiosity, a prank rather than a serious disinformation campaign, possibly Doty continuing his games unofficially because he wants to be more than a traffic cop. By the time of Serpo I think the real campaign was over.

To make a strategic lead: It may be that Doty and his gang of 5-7 are or were a part of an inter-agency misinformation squad, put together and held until it was useful to spring them on the UFO community, as I think now in reference to particular events and info from other entities that they deem it useful to obscure in the public eye.

Understand THE US, is NOT the only entity dealing with this issue therefore their intrest in controlling the narrative must collide with other government entities that they can't totally control.

I think looking at foreign UFO events and information may tell us things.

The historical context would seem to be important. And there's a looooong association of certain folk with matters of dubious lineage and veracity.

An MJ-12 Timeline

1984 - Jaime Shandera receives "Operation Majestic 12" documents.


1986 to 1988 - A meeting at the house of retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Ernie Kellerstrass kicks off "bird" players Richard Doty, Dale Graff, Ernie Kellerstrass, Hal Puthoff, Scott Jones, Kit Green, John Alexander, and Robert Collins himself.


1987 - Shandera, Moore and Friedman release the MJ-12 documents to the public.

1988 - Richard Doty and Ernie Kellerstrass meet with and attempt to impress executive producer Seligman (the producer of "UFO Cover-Up Live") with cloak-and-dagger dramatics.


1989 - Follow-up "group" meeting at an Albuquerque, NM hotel included Hal Puthoff, Kit Green, Rick Doty, Bill and Jaime and Collins. Collins writes, "Kit Green took center stage by proposing several lines of attack involving disclosure strategies."

1990's - Ufologist Timothy Cooper allegedly receives "new Majestic 12 documents". Researchers noted that typewriter anomalies in these new documents matched anomalies produced by Timothy's own typewriter. Note - Timothy Cooper is listed as a contributor, along with Richard Doty, to Robert Collin's book Exempt From Disclosure


2005 - Rick Doty, and pseudonym characters Gene and Paul, launched a story on the Internet called "Project Serpo", a tale about 12 astronauts who went on an exchange program to an alien planet. They claimed this was an alleged disclosure coming from an "anonymous" government insider. The scam was just as strange and ridiculous (and appeared to attempt to compete with) the ongoing Dan Burisch scam.


www.realityuncovered.net...

Note the 1989 entry above which states in part:

"Kit Green took center stage by proposing several lines of attack involving disclosure strategies."

Disclosure strategy or dispersal strategy...what's a few measly letters, right? I also believe evidence shows that he took much the same role in SERPO. (More on that later.)

...Eventually, investigators at this site uncovered and revealed the names of individuals privately and very actively involved with the people (two other men...forming what has become termed the "Team of Five") who were distributing the information to the public via an email list and a website (and at least one presentation at a Laughlin Conference).

These individuals were none other than - Dr. Christopher Green and Dr. Harold Puthoff, both very good friends of Rick Doty's.

…investigators also published the fact that Rick Doty's own computer IP was identified on the header of not only the anonymous source emails, but also Paul McGovern's, and several other characters who were allegedly "insiders" communicating only via email, and refusing to meet anyone in person, or speak on the phone.

According to Bob Collins - the old group from the 1980s still exists. This group includes Hal Puthoff, Rick Doty, Kit Green, and Robert Collins, but very likely also includes Ernie Kellerstrass, Dale Graff, Scott Jones, and John Alexander…

link

And remember what investigative journalist Gus Russo relayed from the pseudonymous "Jim"---AKA as Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green:

“The whole subject,” Jim says in wonderfully measured speech, “is composed of three components: delusion, sociological groupthink, and a kernel of truth.” Jim then reminds that he is first and foremost a medical scientist.

“My interest in this subject is much, much more professional than it is personal. That is, 90 to 95% of all persons who are engaged fully with this [UFO] subject are psychiatrically ill, and by that I mean that they are on medication or should be.”

Jim elaborates that “viral memes,”[see below] in which disturbed people seek validation in numbers on the web, is, or should be, a growing public health concern.

So, is Dr. Green a true believer in ET? If not, then what might he be up to?

Willtell
To make a strategic lead: It may be that Doty and his gang of 5-7 are or were a part of an inter-agency misinformation squad, put together and held until it was useful to spring them on the UFO community, as I think now in reference to particular events and info from other entities that they deem it useful to obscure in the public eye.

I think it's important not to confuse what I think are two distinct instances: (1) Doty as an operative in the Bennewitz operation and (2) Doty in his post-Bennewitz capacity.

In respect to the Bennewitz operation, Doty was following orders. I will try to elaborate on in the future who I think was giving him those orders. But this Doty was acting in an official capacity.

Then there is a separate instance where it's harder to determine if Doty was still following orders, or acting on his personal interests and motivations, or a combination of both. And this is the Doty that interacted with "the Aviary" people, and all the "gangs" or "teams" of 3 or 5, or whatever.

Running the risk of repeating myself again, I don't believe the people in "the Aviary", or any informal groups like it, had anything to do with official disinformation campaign that targeted Bennewitz and ultimately the whole UFO community. I believe those informal groups with people from different agencies, as you point out, were interested in UFOs and came together to find out what the gatekeepers knew.

It's possible, and perhaps probable, these groups created their own disinformation in order to find what they thought was "the truth", or advance their goals whatever they were. It also may be the case that some people in those informal groups were acting as double agents for the official disinformation efforts. Perhaps some were even in the same position as Bill Moore in that, they were told they would be told "the truth" if they continued to inform the official efforts of what these informal groups were doing.

Now it's incredibly difficult for outsiders to determine what is official and what is informal disinformation. But I think it's a mistake to think of all these people, and groups, and even pieces of disinformation, as part of the same thing. But the lines are so blurry that it's expected people to have completely different interpretations of what is what.

I agree with your point that looking at foreign UFO events and information can be helpful, I'm just not sure how helpful. It would be naive to believe the official disinformation efforts were only national in scope, so I'm almost positive a lot of that foreign UFO information is tainted as well. And we shouldn't discard the obvious possibility that some of it might also be the official disinformation efforts of foreign nations.

The GUT
The historical context would seem to be important. And there's a looooong association of certain folk with matters of dubious lineage and veracity. An MJ-12 Timeline

That timeline leads me to a different conclusion:

The MJ12 documents were sent to Shandera & co., by someone part of the official disinformation efforts, maybe even Doty. But Doty doesn't know "the truth". Only what he was told and given to spread to Bennewitz, and Moore and others. It's at that point all those people, including Kit Green, come together to determine what "the truth" is, if there is any validity to MJ12, and so on.

In answering your question, I think Kit Green is a believer in ET, yes. And so are the others. But they don't know "the truth." And like I said above, it's possible - and perhaps probable - they created their own disinformation, and if SERPO is part of it, I don't think it was part of the same orchestrated effort that targeted Bennewitz.

vbstrvct
In answering your question, I think Kit Green is a believer in ET, yes.

If he believes anything of the sort, it probably revolves around ID rather than ET. That brings up a very interesting aspect of this discussion. Gotta go to my lil' cuz' basketball game--she's a pistol!!--but I'll try and address that later this evening. Could be a fun discussion!