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Nothing specific you are not aware of - but having listened to Kit Green at length I found him rather less persuasive. I suppose my general (and fairly obvious) point is that is a mistake to think of the government and its agencies as a monolith and high credibility and knowledge in one area does not necessarily transfer to another.
It's almost high noon somewhere on the planet...I better log off quickly before a stray bullet takes me out! There are way too many angles in this story for me to pull out any guns and start shooting.
Great thread, I've been lurking since the opening post. Sometimes just studying and researching all the characters in "ufology" is more entertaining than worrying about what, who and where are the ufo's...Seems that we've picked up some really knowledgeable new forum members recently...
The cultural narrative has actually taken on an independent life from the actual phenomena. This is something that very few people seem to be aware of, and it really needs to be called out more frequently.
In 1978, Canadian researcher Arthur Bray uncovered previously classified Canadian UFO documents naming Dr. Vannevar Bush as heading a highly secret UFO investigation group within the U.S. Research and Development Board. No name for the group was given. Bray published excerpts of the documents in his 1979 book, The U.F.O. Connection.The author of some of the documents, Wilbert Smith, at the time was the chief radio engineer and telecommunications expert working in the Canadian Department of Transport and later headed Canadian government UFO investigations such as Project Magnet. Skeptical researcher Christopher D. Allan has claimed that Smith would not have had any security clearances and concludes that there is no way any such group headed by Bush could have come to his knowledge. On the contrary, Smith's claims could have inspired the MJ-12 hoax that followed soon after Bray made the documents public. However, there were other classified Canadian documents besides Smith's referencing Bush and the group. Furthermore Canadian researcher Grant Cameron has also pointed out that Smith must have had a high security clearance because he monitored all radio frequencies in Canada and ran the top secret "Radio Ottawa," wherein Soviet radio communications were intercepted and Canadian spies could also radio in information to intelligence services. Smith also claimed to have communicated with aliens, using something called "Tensor Beam transmission.
The earliest appearance of the term "MJ Twelve" was a message of unclear origin dated November 17, 1980. This so-called "Project Aquarius" Teletype message had been given to Albuquerque physicist and businessman Paul Bennewitz in November, 1980, by U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations counterintelligence officer Richard C. Doty. Bennewitz had photographed and recorded electronic data of what he believed to be UFO activity over nearby Kirtland AFB, a sensitive nuclear facility. Bennewitz reported his findings to officials at Kirtland, including Doty. In 1989, the UFOlogist Bill Moore claimed that the documents were actually a hoax created by Doty as part of an attempt to drive Bennewitz insane. One sentence in the lengthy Teletype message read, "The official US Government policy and results of Project Aquarius is [sic] still classified TOP SECRET with no dissemination outside channels and with access restricted to 'MJ TWELVE.'" “Because the entire MJ-12 affair made its first appearance only a year after Bray had made public the incriminating Canadian documents about the secret UFO committee, one theory is that the Project Aquarius Teletype message was part of a counterintelligence hoax to discredit the information in the just-revealed Canadian documents. Thus the various MJ-12 documents could be fake, but the secret committee described in the verified Canadian documents could still have been real.
Wilbert Smith was a Canadian radio engineer of high standing within the Canadian government during the 1950s and a high-level UFO researcher. In fact it could be said he was in charge of Canadian UFO studies between 1950 and 1962. For much more detail about Wilbert Smith the person and his relation to UFOs, see Grant Cameron's extensive research at his presidential ufos Web site (more Smith articles here on Canadian cover-up).. Click here for an interview with Cameron on Smith (subscription now required). Also check out Cameron's CD of Smith audios and documents. Cameron's revised website also has various downloadable Smith documents. Among Smith's more conventional jobs, he was the Senior Radio Engineer at the Canadian Department of Transport and was responsible for AM/FM frequency allotment in Canada. A little known fact about Smith, according to Cameron, was that he also ran "Radio Ottawa" where Canadian spies radioed in, and where the Canadians intercepted Soviet communications. This put Smith in the position of knowing some of Canada's most highly classified secrets. Smith's personal and related Canadian government UFO documents are among the most important ever found, since they state unambiguously that flying saucers were quite real and they were being secretly studied by both the U.S. and Canadian governments. Smith's direct involvement in UFO research began in September of 1950 while he was in Washington D.C. attending a conference. Smith read Frank Scully's just-published "Behind the Flying Saucers," that among things stated that there had been saucer crashes in New Mexico and that the saucers utilized magnetic principles in their propulsion. As an engineer, the latter assertion particularly interested Smith, who had some ideas of his own on how this might work, and had already started preliminary studies within the Dept. of Transport. Trying to get at the truth of the matter, Smith had the Canadian embassy in Washington discretely contact sources within the U.S. government. Among Canadian embassy personnel named in Smith's collection of correspondence are Gordon Cox, Lt. Col. Bremner, a military attache, and Dr. Arnauld Wright, Canadian Defence Research Board (DRB) Liaison Officer. Another name to pop up frequently was Dr. Omand Solandt, Chairman of the Canadian DRB. Wright was the liaison with Solandt. “
The question is what is Serpo obscuring?
reply to post by Willtell
One fact about the Wilbert Smith memo that's often overlooked, is that he's discussing the Aztec hoax as if it were historical fact. With him using that as a cornerstone, nothing else he says much matters.
This real memo with false conclusions was used as a foundation to support the construction of the MJ-12 group, false everything.
The question is what is Serpo obscuring?
... but I actually believe whistleblower Gary McKinnon. Re the Non Terrestrial Officers. There could be that "breakaway civilization", something going on like that, and how Terran versus "alien" who knows. Maybe SERPO relates to that? Ya know, in a way.
Speaking personally, and of course I was not present at the interview, I find Green no more or less persuasive than Doty. Both are great story tellers but you could say Doty is more consistent (of course, let's not mistake consistency for veracity).
Did you find Doty more persuasive and strategically sophisticated than Kit? Kit kept both Mark & John on the edge of their seats, and even sparked some fear with his "disclosure" allegory. I can't remember them reporting anything close to that with Doty.
Doty is a liar, everyone is aware....
Either A) Doty is still continuing his disinfo campaigns but off the books.
or B) He's partially telling the truth...
The main question is, why all the effort? Why so much effort to make aliens a laughable subject when it's obvious that it cannot serve the same stated purpose as it once did?
1984 - Jaime Shandera receives "Operation Majestic 12" documents.
1986 to 1988 - A meeting at the house of retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Ernie Kellerstrass kicks off "bird" players Richard Doty, Dale Graff, Ernie Kellerstrass, Hal Puthoff, Scott Jones, Kit Green, John Alexander, and Robert Collins himself.
1987 - Shandera, Moore and Friedman release the MJ-12 documents to the public. 1988 - Richard Doty and Ernie Kellerstrass meet with and attempt to impress executive producer Seligman (the producer of "UFO Cover-Up Live") with cloak-and-dagger dramatics.
1989 - Follow-up "group" meeting at an Albuquerque, NM hotel included Hal Puthoff, Kit Green, Rick Doty, Bill and Jaime and Collins. Collins writes, "Kit Green took center stage by proposing several lines of attack involving disclosure strategies."
1990's - Ufologist Timothy Cooper allegedly receives "new Majestic 12 documents". Researchers noted that typewriter anomalies in these new documents matched anomalies produced by Timothy's own typewriter. Note - Timothy Cooper is listed as a contributor, along with Richard Doty, to Robert Collin's book Exempt From Disclosure
2005 - Rick Doty, and pseudonym characters Gene and Paul, launched a story on the Internet called "Project Serpo", a tale about 12 astronauts who went on an exchange program to an alien planet. They claimed this was an alleged disclosure coming from an "anonymous" government insider. The scam was just as strange and ridiculous (and appeared to attempt to compete with) the ongoing Dan Burisch scam.
"Kit Green took center stage by proposing several lines of attack involving disclosure strategies."
...Eventually, investigators at this site uncovered and revealed the names of individuals privately and very actively involved with the people (two other men...forming what has become termed the "Team of Five") who were distributing the information to the public via an email list and a website (and at least one presentation at a Laughlin Conference).
These individuals were none other than - Dr. Christopher Green and Dr. Harold Puthoff, both very good friends of Rick Doty's.
…investigators also published the fact that Rick Doty's own computer IP was identified on the header of not only the anonymous source emails, but also Paul McGovern's, and several other characters who were allegedly "insiders" communicating only via email, and refusing to meet anyone in person, or speak on the phone. According to Bob Collins - the old group from the 1980s still exists. This group includes Hal Puthoff, Rick Doty, Kit Green, and Robert Collins, but very likely also includes Ernie Kellerstrass, Dale Graff, Scott Jones, and John Alexander…
“The whole subject,” Jim says in wonderfully measured speech, “is composed of three components: delusion, sociological groupthink, and a kernel of truth.” Jim then reminds that he is first and foremost a medical scientist.
“My interest in this subject is much, much more professional than it is personal. That is, 90 to 95% of all persons who are engaged fully with this [UFO] subject are psychiatrically ill, and by that I mean that they are on medication or should be.”
Jim elaborates that “viral memes,”[see below] in which disturbed people seek validation in numbers on the web, is, or should be, a growing public health concern.
To make a strategic lead: It may be that Doty and his gang of 5-7 are or were a part of an inter-agency misinformation squad, put together and held until it was useful to spring them on the UFO community, as I think now in reference to particular events and info from other entities that they deem it useful to obscure in the public eye.
The historical context would seem to be important. And there's a looooong association of certain folk with matters of dubious lineage and veracity. An MJ-12 Timeline
In answering your question, I think Kit Green is a believer in ET, yes.