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Fine. High Noon, Saturday.
I'll send you a U2U to sort out the details.
(Personally, I had in mind more of a chat through various issues over a glass of your beverage of choice - but if a duel is more your cup of tea then I'm happy to oblige. I may be able to persuade Mark Pilkington and/or Greg Bishop to join us - although they would probably both be on your side of the discussion/fight).
Just the spark we need to revitalise interest in UFOs!
(By the way TheGut, I hope to have some more Aviary related material for you soon).
Aviary related material you say? You KNOW it's time to stop teasing me. I mean I know you're busy, but...
I've also found (on the back cover of a couple of issues of Bill Moore's UFO magazine "Focus") an advertisement for a "20 minute long, unedited, uncut" VHS video interview of Doty done for "UFO Cover-Up? ... Live", shot in August 1988 "with the permission of the government".
Oh, and I've found the beginning of a report on the Bennewitz affair apparently co-authored by Richard Doty...
Start with naming the gang of 5
Saucer Smear Volume 47, No. 7 August 10th, 2000
Former ufologist WILLIAM ("Bill") MOORE writes:
"Several quick comments, which you may publish if you wish:
1. "Rick Doty is either mistaken or misinformed when he says I 'was paid' for such services
as may have been rendered to AFOSI et al., in the early 1980s. While it is true that
money was offered on several occasions, I never once accepted a penny of it. Therefore
I can say with a clear conscience that everything and anything I might have done in this
regard was entirely out of my own pocket.
2. "Regarding the Bennewitz Affair in general - two things which have never come
to light and which might prove most interesting to ufoology are the roles played
by doctors J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee. It is not generally known that
Dr. James Harder was involved (at least early on, although perhaps not later).
I personally know that Hynek was still under contract as a USAF consultant at
the time, and Vallee had very close ties with the CIA and others (although what
his obligations to them may have been, I do not know). For those still hoping
to uncover some hidden treasure in this whole mess, here is a good place to
Many of Bennewitz's bizarre views on abductions seem to have come
to him as a result of Harder's involvement. Hynek's hitherto unknown forte
had to do with providing Bennewitz a carefully crafted means of 'decoding' the
supposed 'alien' transmissions he was intercepting. As for Vallee, numerous clues
pertaining to his particular specialty can be gleaned by a careful rereading of his
book 'Messengers of Deception'.
Dr. Harder was perhaps best known as a prominent UFO researcher who has studied the subject for over 50 years, first becoming interested in 1952. He was Director of Research for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization (APRO) from 1969-1982. APRO was one of the first civilian organizations to study the UFO phenomenon. When the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science and Astronautics held hearings on UFOs in 1968, he was one of six scientists asked to testify on UFOs before the committee. In a 1998 interview, Harder said the subject was generally treated with disdain by the scientific community, but he was still one of about 300 academics who were actively investigating the phenomenon.
Harder was the primary investigator on a number of classical UFO cases, mainly related to alien abductions, including the 1973 Pascagoula Abduction and the 1975 Travis Walton case. He also took over the Betty and Barney Hill abduction investigation and continued it for many years. According to Harder, in about 95% of abduction cases he's studied, abductees report the encounter as positive, benevolent, and/or enlightening. He also investigated the claims of legendary CIA remote viewer Pat Price (who allegedly died under suspicious circumstances in 1975). Based on his remote viewing, Price believed aliens had underground bases at four locations on Earth.
I might just reread MOD tonight...
90% of all emails from the early stage releases of Anonymous I, Herb, Paul (but curiously not Gene), did resolve to Rick's computer(s) including at one point his wife's and one at his State Police workplace, and were all "public" in that it is not a crime to look for root IP addresses. Of course, it is near impossible without a lot of time and money and official capability to show the IP's of Rick were cloned, and from the beginning Anonymous I and Anonymous III (Anonymous II was clearly Rick, as he has said) used him, so defense of saying "I was cloned" is weak to the extreme. No sense in putting out a weak, although true, excuse before we know it is necessary...and besides...only Rick knows the truth of this. Saying he was "cloned" would be a decision Rick and only Rick should make.
It is also known that one of the team mailed fake materials to himself, and another used a fake screen name (actually several) to engage anonymously in chat rooms, and another sent packages to the wrong people, and emails to the wrong people...so the "Oh what tangled webs we weave when 'ere we attempt to deceive" seems to apply here. So we have been complicit...not in a hoax, but in what will surely look like a hoax: these silly attempts (some of us loudly screamed from day one to NOT play these games) are just that...silly and sophomoric, if not sophmor-onic, but certainly not venal or even unethical. They were always meant to protect someone, or gain public information to check out what WE thought might be a nasty hoax.
Kit Green might know a lot about a particular subject (or several subjects), but that doesn't mean is automatically an expert in all fields. Is there any indication, for example, that he was particularly knowledgeable in the arts of counterintelligence? Because someone works or worked for an intelligence agency doesn't means he is automatically a skillful spy.
One problem with the emails is that, based on what Green himself indicated, he seemed to believe someone was reading the emails or going to expose them sooner or later, so he might have presented himself a certain way in those emails that doesn't actually correspond to reality. It's a possibility, I admit. So I can't say for sure but my impression is that Kit Green isn't a super spy and is not one of the gatekeepers.
I believe the gatekeepers have created such an elaborate maze to protect the truth - whatever it is - that not even people with the access like Kit Green's or Richard Doty's can penetrate. Not only that but I think the disinformation is so elaborate, so complex, so convincing, that it can convince their own guys. And looking at the history of deception and disinformation you'll find examples of that.
And that's fundamentally why I think all those guys came together; because on their own they all hit a wall and were unsure of what was true and what wasn't. They needed multiple sources, from different agencies, to try to confirm things.
As you pointed out, most of these people continued (or continue) to work for government, with security clearances and openly talk about UFOs. And based on past experiences I can think of only two circumstances where the gatekeepers wouldn't care about that: (1) what you know is harmless or disinformation; or (2) you're actively creating or spreading disinformation.
To be explicit, I think it's scenario 1 in Kit Green's case.
I don't think Vallée, or Kit Green, actually know that much. I believe what Kit Green describes as their "core story" is what they've collectively deduced is true based on their individual and collective research. I'm not claiming it is true, I'm just saying it's what they believe to be true. And based on Vallée's writings it's kind of hard to say if he endorsed that "core story" at all.
reply to post by vbstrvct
Now there is some sound strategic thinking
If one seriously wants to pursue this, and I think it is a worthy pursuit, in the context of the big picture of UFO lore and events, where one goes back all the way to Fred Crimsan, the Maury Island guy, who was also around many other conspiracies related to paranormal events and supposed hoaxes.
Also the UFO crazy lore Ramifications of Lear, Schneider, and Cooper, should all be put into context.
This way we could separate the sensationalists from legitimate UFO events and the spooky dookies who have littered it with its waste.
I know Valle has done some of this but I just can’t get myself to trust anyone so close to government.
reply to post by 1ofthe9
How do you drive Gut crazy. Put him in a round room with names like Crisman and Maury Island and Verona and Serpo and Green painted on the wall.
But you and Will already know that ha. I think there's a good chance a straight line could be drawn through all of those and a few other names and events...but that's another thread.
Edit: Kenneth Arnold's investigation of Maury Island turned up some interesting tidbits. Including Arnold's own assessment of the events of that investigation that, if true, would have direct bearing on this discussion. Crisman was almost definitely an early mirage man. Strange, strange story that one.
edit on 16-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)