Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

windword
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

There you go again, trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible. It's far easier to disprove the Bible, using the Bible. Your sources were written decades if not centuries after the fact. Jesus, if he existed, and his merry men didn't speak Greek and weren't influenced by pagan ideas.

Look, you can go back read all my posts, where I have already addressed and answered your questions and explained my position. I'm not going to post the same citations over and over. It is a fact that "Christ" is a pagan concept that was used for hundreds of years before the advent of Jesus to describe "good" people, teachers, leaders, deities, disciples and initiates of pagan mystery schools. Even John's LOGOS, is pagan concept, demonstrated by Pythagoras and expounded by Plato, stolen by Christians.

Jesus the Nazarene may have existed, maybe not. The message of "true" Christianity is that the "Christ" is within us all. This is a pagan concept, not a Jewish ideal of the prophesied Messiah. I could go on and on about the schism between the Essenes, Pharisees and Saducees, Gnostics and Catholics, but that's another thread.

edit on 7-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

Just like to point out that Greek was commonly used in the area at the time. You most likely have anyone with an education speaking both Greek and Aramaic. Galilee has a large amount of evidence, including numismatic,literary and funerary, for Greek being a common part of everyday life. The government and all commerce Greek was used. You must realize at the time in order for him to make his travels Jesus would have to have been fluent in Greek,Aramaic and even Hebrew.Because i think it silly to assume many of the Romans he encountered spoke Aramaic. So your argument that Christians wouldn't know Greek is well silly. Since history doesnt agree with you again take the time to learn about the time period not just something you read on a web site. I already explained to you greeks would not have been familiar with the term christos. They would however know the word chrestos or good man. By the way this had nothing to do with pagans like you believe it was usually in Greek literary works to describe a person just like the word poneros meaning wicked man. So once again your sources let you down with misinformation. In fact since parts of the new testament was originally in greek its used in there but prior to that was used in several plays as early as 5th century BCE in Heraclidae, Hecuba, Troiades and Iphigenia.None of these plays involved pagans or pagan rituals they were talking about a mans character.

So once again you returned and told you were wrong when are you going to check out what people have told you? At least it looks like you finally agree they were not refereed to as nazarites so thats a start i guess. As far as gnostics of course the entire area was going through a reformation at the time. And you still see spiritual movements pop up today it would be natural for those teachings to enter in to any religion im not sure what is your point exactly?

The New Testament As A Compilation of Sources

"The second thing to say is that the New Testament is not a single source for all; it is a collection of sources. In the discipline known as "theology" (the study of God's nature and activity) the Bible is appropriately treated as one homogenous source - all ultimately coming from God. Passages from one biblical writer are placed seamlessly next to pages from another in order to build up a coherent picture of the divine character and intentions................"

"The important point for now is that the New Testament is not a single document but a compilation of texts composed and circulated independently of each other in the first century."
From: The Christ Files by Professor John Dickson

windword
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

There you go again, trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible. It's far easier to disprove the Bible, using the Bible. Your sources were written decades if not centuries after the fact.

THIS is classic....
Your source was written 4 CENTURIES after the fact....decades or centuries....hmmm....I wonder which is more reliable....and singular source...or multiple sources....HMMM i dont know about youuuuuu....but I think I'm gonna side with.....dun dun dunnnnn.....

MULTIPLE SOURCES WRITTEN CLOSER TO THE TIME PERIOD!!!!

A2D

Double post. Sorry

texastig
The New Testament As A Compilation of Sources

"The second thing to say is that the New Testament is not a single source for all; it is a collection of sources. In the discipline known as "theology" (the study of God's nature and activity) the Bible is appropriately treated as one homogenous source - all ultimately coming from God. Passages from one biblical writer are placed seamlessly next to pages from another in order to build up a coherent picture of the divine character and intentions................"

"The important point for now is that the New Testament is not a single document but a compilation of texts composed and circulated independently of each other in the first century."
From: The Christ Files by Professor John Dickson

edit on 1/7/2014 by texastig because: (no reason given)

Well half of it anyway you have to realize Saul of Tarsus hijacked alot of the new testament. Thats why sources like the dead sea scrolls are invaluable sometimes there is some stuff in what wasnt included that gives you a real feel for the times.

reply to post by tsingtao



Clearly too many folks on the other side of these issues have not sufficiently investigated the solid Biblical translations. And/or they have little understanding of the complexities of translating from one robust language to another--even in the same era--much more so across eons.

The solid translations have incredible degrees of agreement. Nothing of great eternal significance is that different between the more solid translations. And, there aren't many that qualify, imho.

IIRC, The New Living Translation is currently the standard of scholarship for those who trust that the original autographs truly were the Word of God.

Thx thx.

BTW, you have a pm.

BO XIAN
Clearly too many folks on the other side of these issues have not sufficiently investigated the solid Biblical translations.

Then there are those who understand that solid translations don't turn myths into facts.

texastig
reply to post by randyvs

 

Randyvs, I would like to add to what you posted.

“To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament.”
― John Warwick Montgomery, History and Christianity

Just because Christians destroyed, burned and used as paper almost everything else, (at their christian Dictatorship Nova Roma (byzantioum) 330ad and so on)! While they made uncountable copies of their ''holy'' book. including washing away ultra valuable books of science in antiquity like that of Aristotle and others which was found to be writen over with prayers and gospells. (Thats how it was saved today otherwise it would be burned like everything else. Early christians thought these books of science as demon worship spells (they didn't knew any better) and some of them were writen over with prayers to exorcist the evil!
It isn't a coincidence that only 1% has been saved today from the massive ancient greek liturature.

So your Scholars seem to do a good Job at ignoring true History, to try and prove their biassed point.
Thats how Scholars agree new testament is a book of historic facts?

randyvs
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

I don't believe Windword is a big fan of the
truth when it comes to the existence of Jesus Christ.
I can find historical scholar after scholar who ridicules this belief
to no end. He is proving at the same time just who the brainwashed
sheeple really are.

: “the total evidence is so overpowering, so absolute that only the shallowest of
intellects would dare to deny Jesus’ existence.”
Mater ( 2005 )

edit on 7-1-2014 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

So where is all that overwhelming evidence, thats all I hear in this thread but haven't seen any yet?

reply to post by daskakik

Then there are those who understand that solid translations don't turn myths into facts.

I know if I were making claims about an ancient book, that had been handed
down to all of mankind as a true story. And that book, was having an obvious
influence, on the world up to the minute. Still inspiring people everyday,
causing them to rejoice and have hope. I'd feel pretty uneasy, off balance even.
If I was walk'n around spouting crap, about that book that made it easy to see,
I didn't have the first clue, as to why I even thought that way.

reply to post by randyvs

Because you believe the myth.

I don't have that hindering my search for the truth.

reply to post by daskakik


Nobody believes in myths, that's why they're called myths.

reply to post by randyvs

Typical randyvs reply.

Then you must be doing something that nobody does or that a whole lot do but call it something else.

Agree2Disagree
It's funny really...I can't help but laugh at this response, no harm intended...

Then you will not mind when I laugh at your nonsense below.

I just find it insanely ironic that you posted this...BECAUSE
The only people on the planet to say that Jesus Christ never existed are nonbelievers.

Yeah now that is funny. Why do you suppose they are "non-believers?" I am not sure you understand irony all that well. If I look for something and fail to find any evidence for it, I am not going to believe in it. That is kind of how actual logic works.

Think they might have a motive as well?

Sure, SOME but not ALL. Many went looking for proof of this Jesus, found none, and thus do not believe. It did not start with "I vow to prove Jesus never existed." It starts with looking for proof of this Jesus and only finding a huge lack.

Let us all discuss those "scholars" as well to see if THEY are legit, or just biased nonbelievers promoting their own vomit.....

Actually you just described Christians who insist thing they cannot back up are true and demand the rest of us just "trust" them.

It's a sick carousel ride my friend...round and round we go and where we stop, is THE SAME FRIGGIN PLACE WE STARTED!!!!
A2D

No, it really is not. I see how badly you wanted to frame it that way but you are not accurately reflecting reality.


When I was a kid, I did not trust my parents about Santa Claus because I had no fire place and knew my mom's handwriting. I never said "I do not believe in Santa, therefore I willingly find no evidence of him and will choose not to!!" I asked questions, i waited up and watched, I asked other kids and never found any evidence of any actual Santa Claus. As a result, I did not believe in him. So tell me, what was my motive?

randyvs
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

I don't believe Windword is a big fan of the
truth when it comes to the existence of Jesus Christ.
I can find historical scholar after scholar who ridicules this belief
to no end. He is proving at the same time just who the brainwashed
sheeple really are.

Yet you provide not a single scholar that claims he did exist. Do you see your own bias?

: “the total evidence is so overpowering, so absolute that only the shallowest of
intellects would dare to deny Jesus’ existence.”
Mater ( 2005 )

edit on 7-1-2014 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Anytime you want to present that evidence, this would be a good place to do it.

texastig

windword
There you go again, trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible. It's far easier to disprove the Bible, using the Bible. Your sources were written decades if not centuries after the fact. Jesus, if he existed, and his merry men didn't speak Greek and weren't influenced by pagan ideas.

Fact: Paul the Apostle wrote Galatians 25 years after Jesus resurrection.
Fact: Early Creeds:
Do critical scholars agree on the date of this pre-Pauline creed? Even radical scholars like Gerd Lüdemann think that “the elements in the tradition are to be dated to the first two years after the crucifixion . . . no later than three years after the death of Jesus.” Similarly, Michael Goulder contends that Paul’s testimony about the resurrection appearances “goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion.”

Are the "Twilight" books history? Writing something down does not make it true. As I have mentioned, Zeus is far more well documented than this Jesus but I do not see a single on of you claiming 'people wrote about Zeus a long time ago so he must be real.'

Can you explain that logic to me?

BO XIAN


The solid translations have incredible degrees of agreement.

OH? That explains why I have 4 bibles with 4 completely different sets of the "ten" commandments. In quotes because one has 12 and another 13. The other two vary which one is 1st, 2nd, etc.

It must be fun to deny reality to defend something none of you can back up.

anoncoholic
you are so wrong in your assessment of me.

Pareidolia isn't something that just afflicts you. It afflicts everyone. Just because you cannot recognize that you are experiencing pareidolia doesn't mean that I've assessed you wrong. You are still experiencing this VERY REAL tick your mind likes to play on you (and any other person).

... I have had many Prayers answered. And what would it take to convince you? A parlor trick?

You do not comprehend that God hears every Prayer, every thought, every desire.

You do not desire to know God thus He doesn't reveal Himself to you.

Blah blah blah blah. Sounds like you got offended and are trying to lash out with your rationalizations. Dude, I'm an ex-Catholic, I know all about "knowing" God and let me tell you it is all bunk. I've called out to him many times and he never answers. You know why? Because we are inconsequential. You. Me. EVERYONE. This whole planet. If you think out of this entirely vast universe that God would care about one teeny, tiny, small blue orb and the arrogant lifeforms that inhabit it, I have a bridge to sell you.

It is understandable in this day and age when so much confusion reigns over truth... where greed reigns over justice... where division reigns over Faith. Because of the lack of Faith belief is impotent.

... as are the churches and that is why the book of Revelation begins with the 7 letters.

The book of Revelation is about the Roman Empire. It doesn't relate to anything in this day and age.

Like I said, within those pixels is the signature of God.

Let me put it into words so you can dive into it and see if you can find a few pixels within what ... millions?

... but then you will still refuse to see and claim it is all in my mind. For you, disregard the following as it would be a waste of time...

In the reflection in the water if you zoom in, there is a face that looks like it is breathing a cloud ... following that cloud left leads to a path that leads up but is closed up above... further to the left of that path is a house that has a dividing line cut through the left hand side of it... beside the house are two figures and further to the left is another path going up that leads to a figure in black with an aura (John the Baptist and reading it left to right now) who is anointing a figure (Jesus) that then has a spirit embedded with Him... He then looks like he grows in size and stands with His arms at His side with His elbows bent forward and an untied sacrificial sash is draped over them... to the right of that it is feint but He can be seen kneeling (giving Himself freely), becoming a 3 ( the trinity), becoming a skull ( the Holy Spirit) ... to the right of this is that line that divided His house that branches off and becomes a building with that symbol I mentioned and the number 7. Look for the 7 as it is the easiest to spot.

There is more in that picture, but why should I even care about whether you come to see it or not? I don't. You think I lack the intestinal fortitude to Smith / Corona with you at dawn w/e. The truth is this is already ancient history to me.

More rationalizing pareidolia. It's nice that you think God cares enough to contact YOU specifically. Some of those things you mentioned that you saw were made up by the early Christian church like the holy trinity. This confirms that you are just seeing what you want to see, the Holy Trinity isn't even part of the bible.

Whether you see it or nor is inconsequential to me.

Could have fooled me, what with the description of what you saw and the restating over and over again that you actually saw God or something.

My Prayers I will keep to myself as something so personal as a conversation with God and His reply while they might affect you, are none of your business.

well done and goodbye

Awesome, one less person pushing their religion in my face.

Buttonlip

BO XIAN


The solid translations have incredible degrees of agreement.

OH? That explains why I have 4 bibles with 4 completely different sets of the "ten" commandments. In quotes because one has 12 and another 13. The other two vary which one is 1st, 2nd, etc.

It must be fun to deny reality to defend something none of you can back up.

Do you really want to know why there is a catholic and lutheran version that is different or is this just a convenient way to bash christians again just curious?

randyvs


I know if I were making claims about an ancient book, that had been handed
down to all of mankind as a true story. And that book, was having an obvious
influence, on the world up to the minute. Still inspiring people everyday,
causing them to rejoice and have hope. I'd feel pretty uneasy, off balance even.
If I was walk'n around spouting crap, about that book that made it easy to see,
I didn't have the first clue, as to why I even thought that way.

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

Folks REALLY DON'T HAVE THE FIRST CLUE about the origins of their Kool-Aid drinking perspectives on the Bible.

Yet, God is very emphatic . . .

New Living Translation
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.
.

King James Bible
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Amen, I say to you that until Heaven and earth will pass away, one Yodh or one Taag and will not pass away from The Written Law until everything will happen.
.

Young's Literal Translation
for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

Those words are more true, dependable, certain, reliable, emphatic than the notion that the sun will 'rise' tomorrow.

However, it is very fascinating that God has constructed a reality such that those who are disingenuous, faithless, rebellious, defiant, selfish, loveless, mean, spiteful, arrogant . . . and/or similar ilk . . . filter themselves out of the gene pool of those who shall enjoy eternal life, joy, peace, Love, fulfillment, FREEDOM, . . . with HIM FOREVER.

They simply CANNOT see the truth.

And they will maintain a death-grip on their willful blindness regardless of being smacked upside the head by the truest of realities.

Very fascinating, that.

And horrifically terrifying for those concerned . . . who don't realize at all the terrors they are awash in so arrogantly.

Christ was quite clear that the arrogant who pretended to know Him, didn't.

And the prostitutes who were so desperate to know HIM did.

I've often been a bit amused . . . visits to Heaven often recount how the population of prostitutes closer to the throne of God is MUCH greater than the scarce preachers etc. in that hallowed region of Heaven.

However, humility, brokenness, contrition, confession . . . and faith . . . are required to know God.

And to seek Him earnestly, persistently, genuinely, intensely.

Those so convinced of their own omniscience will never find Him.

Those humbling themselves sufficiently ON HIS TERMS TO SEEK HIM . . . FIND HIM relatively EASILY.

THEY have all the proof anyone could want . . . though it is still largely a walk of faith . . . because in HIS economy, faith and Love are priceless essential currencies.