What actually do you people not like about Freemasonry?

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posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 12:01 PM
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answer to original question: secrecy.

then IMO you should definatly distance yourself from all forms of mainstream
christianity. from its inception pauline christianity was based on secrecy.

which one of the 2nd century bishops was it that said " not all truth is for all people".




posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:02 PM
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Seeing as you mentioned Christianity, this religion started off as a secret society, with it's own secret signs of recognition.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:15 PM
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I am very surprised there haven't been more questions seeing as this forum is the place for answers



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 03:31 PM
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Apparently the “Pro Mason”… “Controlled by Masons”… “Just a bunch of Masons (or Mason lovers)”… ATS Moderators and Admin banned him. Reasons unknown, but interesting that once again the perception of “what is”, was wrong.



[edit on 19/11/2004 by Mirthful Me]


Holy Cow! Theron got banned!!!! What the heck did he do? He was a good contributer to discussion. If you get banned to you get to come back another time?



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by mastermason
I'm sorry if you think were a cult, but were not most of us are good, honest, born again Christian men that live right in the community you live in.


But sir, why would you want to futher the false notion that born-again Christians are elitists?

Main Entry: elit·ism
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
Function: noun
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite; especially : SNOBBERY 1

Example: "sorry son, you cannot join the Masons for you are not a God-fearing man." What does that make the person feel about God and Christianity? I see a conflict of interest: we are to spread the gospel to all the nations of the earth yet you shut the door on someone who wants to join you as a 'brother'?



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Example: "sorry son, you cannot join the Masons for you are not a God-fearing man." What does that make the person feel about God and Christianity? I see a conflict of interest: we are to spread the gospel to all the nations of the earth yet you shut the door on someone who wants to join you as a 'brother'?


Masonry is not Christianity, nor a substitute for it. It is not the duty of Masonry to evangelize men: that is the duty of religion. It is, however, the duty of Masonry to admit only those men who will conform to the precepts and ideals of reason, faith, virtue, and charity.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by mastermason
But sir, why would you want to futher the false notion that born-again Christians are elitists?


Freemasons don't claim to be elitists.


[edit on 20/11/2004 by Bondi]



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 07:03 AM
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masons are often not liked because of the way they look after each other in a secretive way. its well known that at many times in the past people got jobs because they were masons and it still goes on today etc etc. masons look after themselves in this way and more than likely put down their enemies in a similar way so on that level its just plain unfair. also why must it be a secret??? whats so secret anyway??? with the net now anyone can find out what masonry is all about, and it is steeped in the occult, sorcery and many other non biblical things. im not making this up, all the signs and symbols and rituals and everything else in masonry has a root and a deeper meaning. i mean the pentagram alone is basically a symbol of witchcraft as an example.

masonry is esoteric and mystic, just like other societies. the goal is for man to develop himself into a form of diety, to gain more power and control, and to do this without the permission. acknolwledgement or support of the true God. as soon as you put all Gods together and worship them as the same God you are mixing the true God with other "gods" which are either fallen angels, demons,evil spirits or the host of heaven masscreading as gods. that is spiritual idolatry which God hates so much that he has laid ancient Israel to waste on more than one occasion for that sin alone.

You cannot drink the Lords cup and the cup of demons unless you want to prevoke the Lords anger, for he is a jealous God.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
they look after each other in a secretive way.


I have not heard of masons looking after each other secretly, but if you could use and example it may make it clearer as to what you mean.


its well known that at many times in the past people got jobs because they were masons


This is more to do with individuals than the actual fraternity, bit like favouring a member of family over some one else.


more than likely put down their enemies in a similar way so on that level its just plain unfair


Not saying this isn't true because I don't know, but it is a presumption on your part in which is also unfair. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if statements are made on opinion rather than fact it leads to conspiracy because people are unable to determine what is true or here say.


also why must it be a secret??? whats so secret anyway???


It is not secret, it has secrets but this is in remembrance of the old masons. Basically the only part of freemasonry that is secret is it's modes of recognition. In ages gone by there were no certificates of qualification, no cv's and the majority of people were illiterate, therefore to show someone was of a particular skill they were given a sign. Obviously this was kept secret to stop those that were not skilled from lying and pretending they could do something they couldn't.


with the net now anyone can find out what masonry is all about,


then it is no longer secret


and it is steeped in the occult, sorcery and many other non biblical things. im not making this up


I would not think of saying you are making it up, but it also says on the net that satans greatest trick would be to get people to believe he is god and that's why he wrote the bible. There is no links to the occult that I know of, although with symbols of freemasonry being common with a number of other groups and fractions it is easier to create links. The fact that a main symbol is a square, as in the tool, you will often find people associate freemasonry with anything that has a 90 degree angle in it.


all the signs and symbols and rituals and everything else in masonry has a root and a deeper meaning.


That is the idea of using symbols. It requires more thought to interprit a symbol than it does a word. That is why when you go into a church there is a statue of the crucifixion, although the most are incorrect in a factual way (ie if the nails go through the hands it's wrong) the church did not go and change them all, because it's symbolic.


i mean the pentagram alone is basically a symbol of witchcraft as an example.


I believe it would depend on the orientation of the pentegram, one way up it is designed to ward of evil spirits the other not. In saying that though it does depend on the interpretation of the symbol, and people have always associated the pentegram, what ever the orientation, with evil mainly due to the use of it in films, books etc. A symbol can be used for one thing by one group and have a completely different meaning for another.


the goal is for man to develop himself into a form of diety


With freemasonry not being a religion this is highly unlikely.


to gain more power and control


Thats human nature, to become bigger, better, faster and all that


and to do this without the permission. acknolwledgement or support of the true God. as soon as you put all Gods together... you are mixing the true God with other "gods"


If freemasonry goes against your faith then that is a fair and honourable reason to disagree with the fraternity, but at the same time by claiming you follow the one true god, doesn't necessarily make you right, that isn't meant to be antagonistic and I am not questioning your faith.

To me a fraternity that promotes brotherhood regardless of religion is a noble cause, more wars and conflict are caused by religous believes than any other. As freemasonry is not a religion itself, the argument that it is occultist, deity wannabes etc is some what lacking. It actaully surprises me than the many religions has not attmepted to use freemasonry as a way to try an convert, seeing as alot of there work is done from scritpure.

Thank you for your post, you have made valid points and I hope you appreciate my comments



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
masons are often not liked because of the way they look after each other in a secretive way. its well known that at many times in the past people got jobs because they were masons and it still goes on today etc etc. masons look after themselves in this way and more than likely put down their enemies in a similar way so on that level its just plain unfair.

Actually it is also the reverse that is the case. The Arch Bishop of Canterbury, made it clear he blocked the promotion of clergy, so as not to be accused of favouring Freemasons. He banned Freemasons from advancement. Howerver as in most things in life I am sure there has been some advantage taken. I personally have never benefitted from Masonry in the work place.

You cant have it both ways, complain because of secrecy, then say Masons make it known they are Masons so they can get a benefit, its just not logical.


also why must it be a secret??? whats so secret anyway??? with the net now anyone can find out what masonry is all about, and it is steeped in the occult, sorcery and many other non biblical things. im not making this up, all the signs and symbols and rituals and everything else in masonry has a root and a deeper meaning. i mean the pentagram alone is basically a symbol of witchcraft as an example.

Absolutely , its not secret. It has some silly passwords and handshakes, nothing earth shattering. It only means something to a Mason. There is nothing of any importance hidden from anyone , you said yourself its all on the internet. But the Anti Mason has to have an obscure smokey eirie area of ' not quite defined ' in order to promote the fear factor.



masonry is esoteric and mystic, just like other societies. the goal is for man to develop himself into a form of diety, to gain more power and control, and to do this without the permission. acknolwledgement or support of the true God. as soon as you put all Gods together and worship them as the same God you are mixing the true God with other "gods" which are either fallen angels, demons,evil spirits or the host of heaven masscreading as gods. that is spiritual idolatry which God hates so much that he has laid ancient Israel to waste on more than one occasion for that sin alone.


Develop himself yes, diety NO. No man has ever been recorded as giving up his Relion to be a Freemason, NEVER. There is no masonic God. Its a myth it does not exist. If it did there would be 6,000,000 Masons who would deny their alegence to Christ or Allagh or YWH. Why would they not take advantage of this strong force of so called powerful men and declare themselves. Again it is just not logical. Except in the mind of the Anti mason.


You cannot drink the Lords cup and the cup of demons unless you want to prevoke the Lords anger, for he is a jealous God.


The Lord will judge me then. I am happy with that.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 09:44 AM
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It would seem that, at most, the majority of doubts for freemasonry come from either lack of knowledge regarding the fraternity, or doubt caused by the many speculations made. When some one denounces anything in a dramatic manner it can only cause concern and uncertaintity.

It is understandable that people are wary of such organisations but to see so many people taken in by the ridiculous is very surprising.


With a little common sense it is easy to see the reasonable doubt from the out right mythical, although it seems that the ridiculous comments seem to get the most response.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 12:12 PM
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wow, looks like you guys missed me. dont worry i havent left yet. unfortunatley i dont have internet at home, so i must post at work. looks like quite a few deep breaths have been taken since i last responded. this thread has just blossomed since i stepped away from the key board. to bondi, bill and others, "bravo, bravo." you've conducted this thread in such a beautiful way. my tear glands swell as i think about oh how perfectly crafted your political corrected statements bless my thoughts. If ever you did actually defacate, i would volunteer for TP duty, because surely your fecis would be more plesantly scented then masonic parfume. all nonsense aside, i keep a sinister smile for the camera because i am lucky enough to be the 'bad guy' in this thread. in all other threads, i am usually quite tame. its just, you asked a question and it was too easy to answer. let me break it down for you - back to the beginning:

Question: What actually do you people not like about Freemasonry?
(that is the title of the thread, and yes bingo i tried so very hard. thanks for believing in me)

Answer: Secrets

Its as simple as that. my answer stands strong but unfortunatley certain persons cant deal. To all suggestions about staying away from christianity, most religions and other fraternities/organizations; thanks for the advice, and what an excellent defence of masonry! not.

it seems that whenever someone (namely i) offers an unwanted answer such as above, those in defence have no other option but to scream "GIVE PROOF! EVIDENCE!!" -sorry guys, those were opinions, and yes they are allowed here. also bill, im sorry you wasted 15 minutes responding to my post only to further solidify my opinions. if you have a problem with my opinions, go ask SkepticOverlord about JohnLear.

dont get your panties in a bunch because i answered your question and you know its true (masons keep secrets). as to all reasons why i have a problem with secrets, those were mere opinions -even you should have recognized them as such. alas, every one of my posts HAS stayed on topic. its must be gut wrenching to read my posts and see unwanted replies that stay on topic. this is clearly a pro-masonic thread, and all you internet-masons have made careers out of turning comments like mine into acts of blaspheme. you didnt think everybody was going to put on cheezy smiles and act cordial did you?! sorry, i am here to stay.

if anyone would like to further their understanding as to what my opinions about masonry are, do please ask. really, im a nice guy but i call it how i see it. you want me to be the bad guy fine, its an exciting new roll for me.

some tips:

making STATEMENTS such as, "I would be interested........" are NOT questions. so no, you didnt ask. you made a statement.

"would you now?" however, IS a question.

also, TruthStrgnrThanFiction is right on point.







"oh he's so lost, blahaa ha
haa ha!!!" ................
how original, never heard that one before.


[edit on 20-11-2004 by lost]

[edit on 20-11-2004 by lost]



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 04:11 PM
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What I don't like about masonry, is having to keep secrets from people who I love, I also don't like the peculiar misconceptions this secrecy breeds..

I do however fully understand that historical imperative for confidentiality and hope that one day the secrecy surrounding the masons will be unneeded...



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 05:44 PM
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Lost




also bill, im sorry you wasted 15 minutes responding to my post only to further solidify my opinions. if you have a problem with my opinions, go ask SkepticOverlord about JohnLear.


No, I have no intention of asking anyone, I was talking to you, if you are unable to reply thats fine. I thought it would be interesting to find out what you thought. Perhaps some comments would further the debate, I canott see that you have actually enlightened us.

I challenged your opinion, thats all. If you wish to keep that opinion thats fine, but would it not be a better balanced opinion if you listened to both sides. I mean it just seems logical. ? doesn't it.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 11:32 AM
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fair enough bill. here are some more of my opinions. i am quite capable of responding -thanks. for my own amusment, i title this :

'the lost views on masonry'

I can hardly attack free-masonry as the culprit behind some giant conspiracy to herd us as sheep because frankly, I dont know much about masonry (and why might that be?.....)
What I do know, I have learned mostly from the internet and a few mason acquaintances of mine. For the record, the two (yes, that few) masons I do know are upstanding gentleman. Never have I witnessed them cheat or lie. Upon the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty, they have my trust. I am however wary of any and all. Any individual can have my trust to lose it later. Likewise they can deal with the consequences later. I dont put the notion that 'everyone has a price,' past anyone - especially members of fraternal organizations. those individuals have already named their price. I am quite convinced that the random mason is willing to forfeit my trust for their fraternity. it matters not however, because i really dont care.
As genteel as they might be, the two masons i do know fall under the 'weak' category in my book. Maybe they lacked the attention they needed as children, or later in life from a spouse, but more than likely they joined for want of feeling like they belonged. I do not hate them for that, however, I would not have made the same decisions. For someone to automatically be my friend and expect the same from me because of some 'brotherhood' I become doubly cautious of that stranger. You do not know me, until you get to know me. -Even then you should reserve your judgments to your own intuition and pondering. Naturally, the average dud is not plotting to kill you and paranioa is a wasted emotion. I sympathize with those that join for need to belong. It is too bad they had to resort to a fraternaty to have friends (because those 'friends' are only pretending). The same goes for any organization where 'members' (yet still strangers) are favored over 'outsiders.'
No, I do not believe it realistic to hope for Utopia while on this planet, but till the end of my days I will judge each man by his actions. -Not a handshake or fancy title. I understand the secrecy that surrounds Masonry is for traditional purposes mostly. -Fair enough, maybe at one point in time masonry was oppressed and secret means were needed.-Not anymore. Can the organization not evolve with the times? C'mon now, those rites and rituals werent handed down by god were they?
I also understand masonry is a great donater to charities of all sorts, and likewise promotes service. -Those are very commendable actions, I will not deny it. My qualms with masonry are not about conspiracies and the like. My qualms with masonry are about secrecy. Anything shrouded in secrecy, as trivial as those secrets might be, is suspect. Surely there is some heirarchy in Masonry to keep it orderly and operating; What about those towards on top? I guarantee you there ARE corrupt individuals within masonry, as there are in most organizations. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, I do believe. Sorry, I can offer no evidence. -Only opinions based on my own logic. Lastly, I dont like certain individual masons (mostly on the internet) who start threads under the guise of 'Let me answer your questions' (as if I had any) and then prance around the thread like nobility. No, you werent directly impolite with me -but I understand. Statments like "please go elsewhere" arent hard to interperit. Such individuals think so highly of themselves, they cannot hide their own pride and self-righteous behaviours, even through the veil of the internet. I however will not lie about my view of myself. I believe my opinions to be dead on. I am indeed proud of my opinions because I have nurtured them with logic. Sure, I am wrong sometimes too. I can deal.

Dont pat eachother on the back like you just put out a forrest fire just yet.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by lost
I can hardly attack free-masonry as the culprit behind some giant conspiracy to herd us as sheep because frankly, I dont know much about masonry (and why might that be?.....)


I have no idea. Freemasonry has been dealt with in the highest depths in print...Masonic books compose one of the largest genres of them all. Anyone curious about Freemasonry needs only to get a library card; most libraries have books by Pike, Mackey, Coil, Waite, Newton, as well as writings about Freemasonry from non-Masonic and anti-Masonic authors. The information is available to anyone who wants it.

You said:


What I do know, I have learned mostly from the internet and a few mason acquaintances of mine. For the record, the two (yes, that few) masons I do know are upstanding gentleman. Never have I witnessed them cheat or lie. Upon the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty, they have my trust.


But then said:


I am quite convinced that the random mason is willing to forfeit my trust for their fraternity. it matters not however, because i really dont care.


These are contradictory statements. You first admit that, from your personal experience, the Masons you know have your trust, only to revoke it a couple of sentences later. Why are you "convinced" that they are willining to "forfeit your trust" if they haven't done so?


I sympathize with those that join for need to belong. It is too bad they had to resort to a fraternaty to have friends (because those 'friends' are only pretending). The same goes for any organization where 'members' (yet still strangers) are favored over 'outsiders.'


Men do not join Masonry to have friends...Masons have friends before they've ever even heard of Freemasonry. The reason that men join Masonry is because they agree with the principles of the Fraternity: they accept the ideals of the Enlightenment and show their support of them by uniting with others who also agree.


I understand the secrecy that surrounds Masonry is for traditional purposes mostly. -Fair enough, maybe at one point in time masonry was oppressed and secret means were needed.-Not anymore.


Agreed. But has been mentioned a million times, there's no real secrecy around Freemasonry anymore. The only secrecy that exists these days concerning Masonry exists primarily in the imaginations of the fraternity's opponents. Masonry's reputation as a secret society is a carryover from the Inquisition; it is no longer a secret society, and hasn't been in a very long time.


Can the organization not evolve with the times?


The organization has evolved; remember, it was originally a craftsman's guild for stonemasons.


C'mon now, those rites and rituals werent handed down by god were they?


Our ceremonies contain the method of transmitting our moral and philosophical teachings. Without ritual, there would be no Freemasonry, as ritual lies at its very heart. It's a part of what we are.


My qualms with masonry are about secrecy. Anything shrouded in secrecy, as trivial as those secrets might be, is suspect.


Perhaps, but everyone has secrets. For example, I'm not going to post my Social Security number because it's private. I also would feel safe in assuming that you would agree with this.
But, as mentioned, Masonic secrecy is in large part a product of non-Masons' imaginations. The only Masonic secrets are the private wayts that Masons can identify each other, which evolved from the secret modes of recognition used by all guilds in the middle ages.


Surely there is some heirarchy in Masonry to keep it orderly and operating; What about those towards on top?


Every year, Lodges elect their own Officers; every Lodge also sends it representatives to the annual Grand Lodge meeting to elect Grand Lodge officers. Freemasonry is a democracy, with every member eligible to participate. Indeed, our own forefathers such as Washington and Franklin were very active Masons, and they based the new American democratic system of electing leaders by majority vote from their experiences in Freemasonry.


I guarantee you there ARE corrupt individuals within masonry, as there are in most organizations.


This cannot be denied. Any organization that is composed of humans will eventually have corrupt members. Freemasonry investigates applicants in hope to weed out the unworthy, but certainly a few will slip by. Nevertheless, any Mason who behaves immorally or criminally will be expelled from the Fraternity. Such men are the exception, not the rule.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 02:46 PM
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its well known that at many times in the past people got jobs because they were masons and it still goes on today

and this is the only group in which this happens right? that is why a bill was just enacted to allow fundie groups to use Govt. money and only hire people
of their religious beliefs right?



i mean the pentagram alone is basically a symbol of witchcraft as an example.



I believe it would depend on the orientation of the pentegram, one way up it is designed to ward of evil spirits the other not. In saying that though it does depend on the interpretation of the symbol, and people have always associated the pentegram, what ever the orientation, with evil mainly due to the use of it in films, books etc. A symbol can be used for one thing by one group and have a completely different meaning for another


No the Pentagram is not "Basically" a symbol of witchcraft, nor" basically" a
symbol of evil. it is and has been used for both. the orientation has only in the last 40 years or so become important, since Anton LeVey began using it.

if you want to get to basics about it there are 2 basics,
1 it is a symbol for Venus, bothe the Goddess and the planet and by extention and association Sofia- wisdom

2 it is a symbol of the relation between mathmatics and the universe or
science and belief if you will.



[edit on 21-11-2004 by stalkingwolf]



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 04:18 PM
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First, for those who do not know of the literary giant who is jhova, may I offer this enlightening read. Enjoy!!! (MM, Thanks for reminding me of that. I needed a good laugh. Classic.)

Now then,

So, lost, you don’t like secrets. Well good for you. Whoop-dee-doo. Do you feel the need to antagonize others simply because you disagree? Before you start in, yes, I know that you posted to answer the original question, but as we can see:


originally posted by lost
that goes for every fraternity; from the bohemian grove to your keg party frats. -generally, two kinds of people join them: cheaters, and followers. cheaters, because they like a fancy title to hide behind, and followers because they are weak minded in need of fellowship and support to feel special. sure "service this and service that." why the secrets?

-i know i know, i could go and join and then know the secrets however trivial they might be. point is - i dont need to keep secrets to feel special. it must be grand to think you're 'elite' because you're part of some 'brotherhood' -bah! favor for a favor bullsh!t. WEAK...


You immediately go on to insult every Mason or member of any other fraternity, labeling them either “cheaters” or “followers”. How is this productive to the conversation? If you have a problem with Freemasonry or Freemasons that is fine and good, but why the antagonism? Really I don’t mind it because it gives the opportunity to the Masons to show their strength of character by not engaging in a juvenile argument with someone whose clear intention is to cause a disruption in the thread. Instead, they answered you hatefulness with courtesy. Kudos to them. I think Bondi (or bingo, to those who seem to have “lost” their respect for others) has been quite considerate and polite to you, even after you insulted him and tried to hijack this thread into mud-slinging and negativity instead of the original purpose which was to have a civil discussion about people’s problems with Freemasonry, i.e. Denying Ignorance.

Now, are you going to break my post down and try to be witty or are you going to contribute something besides the same old drivel? I know what my money’s on…


[edit on 11/21/04 by The Axeman]



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 04:30 PM
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Well, I wish I knew more about freemasonry. My father was a mason and a God fearing man. If this is the same group you are talking about. He was for years and I never thought much about it. He never talked to me about it though, other than telling me about some members and that they weren't who he thought they were, as far as christians. He told me never to become a member because he was deceived and was sad for becoming one. He told me of some bad things they were involved in before he died and not to get involved.

When he died though he still had his mason ring on and it was so old that the designs on it were gone off of the gold.

I am always weary of joining a group that lives in secrecy. They are usually hiding something. If they were helping others in a christian way they would acknowledge it and share it with people. Sure they help in alote of ways in the society, but who are these men inside really? Are they GOD....fearing men? If our Lord didn't want us to write his name to talk to others then why is it spelled GOD in the bible and not G_D? I think it is another way of deception. You can fill the ____ up with anything. GreeD or whatever. If you can't spell what you mean then something is wrong.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by Dreamweaver777

I am always weary of joining a group that lives in secrecy. They are usually hiding something.


Who exactly is supposed to be "living in secrecy"? I've never seen any Masonic organization in my life that exists in secrecy, and I belong to practically all of them.


If they were helping others in a christian way they would acknowledge it and share it with people.


Masonry is not a Christian organization per se, but there's no such thing as helping people in a "Christian way" or a "Jewish way" or a "Catholic way" or a "Masonic way". People either help others, or they do not. But if you're interested in Masonic charities, you can review them here:

www.shrinershq.org...
www.srmason-sj.org...
www.yorkrite.com...
www.knightstemplar.org...
www.cmmrf.org...


Sure they help in alote of ways in the society, but who are these men inside really?


We're here on on this forum practically every day denying ignorance.


Are they GOD....fearing men?


I do not "fear" God in the sense that I'm afraid of Him. I "fear" Him in the original sense of the word, i.e., hold Him in awe.


If our Lord didn't want us to write his name to talk to others then why is it spelled GOD in the bible and not G_D?

I think it is another way of deception. You can fill the ____ up with anything. GreeD or whatever. If you can't spell what you mean then something is wrong.


And what has that to do with Freemasonry?

Fiat Lvx.





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