Originally posted by saint4God
Someone please (besides a Christmas gift/Birthday surpise) give me a good reason why anyone should withhold information in a personal relationship.

They shouldn't, but saying that, again from a uk perspective and what I know to be fact through my grandfathes and fathers involvement, prior to initiation a visit takes place to the home of the prospective mason.

My grandmother and my mother were included in the discussion where it was disclosed that part of freemasonry was to keep these modes of recognition secret, from all those who are not freemasons, which would include them. If they had disagreed with this then neither my grandfather or father would of been able to be initiated.

This info comes from my mum, not my dad or any other mason.

I don't know if this is the case in all potential initiates, but it was in this instance.

If the person knows what is being kept from them, and the reason, and is okay with it I do not see any problem with it. Intential deception, well you will not hear me complain about that being wrong.

Originally posted by lost
i would only be interested in a Q&A if i could be guaranteed to get all the answers from an ex-mason. not necessarily an anti-mason, but rather someone who knows every detail of the fraternity and would be willing to answer all questions. otherwise all answers will surely be coming from the biased defending position. this is probably not a possibility though.

An ex-Mason who turns around and blabs all of our secrets, without basic respect for our right to privacy (whether or not he is an ex-Mason), is the lowest of the low, in my opinion.

I am not a member of the Knights of Columbus, for example, but I will certainly not expose and dirty the rituals they hold dear, just for the sake of outsiders' gleeful boasting that they know the rituals and are thereby "special" in the eyes of others.

Whether mason or not, or to do with freemasonry or not, I am sure most people will not hold much respect for anyone who divulges things that have been entrusted to keep to themselves.

I see people make the sign of the cross by touching forehead, shoulders, and chest etc, to me that is absolutely pointless

no its not. I learned this in the Military. its a memory check, spectacles
testicles, wallet & watch.

as an individual i would never make an oath that ties me to a group of men that largly i do not know

I guess from this statement that would include Military Service. You seem however more than willing to sit back and let others serve and defend your
right to be here puking your particular brand of pablum.

This symbol was used primarily amongst Christians of the early church years

the fish symbol was and is not primarily a christian symbol. it is another of those pagan symbols that was hijacked by christianity.
The fish or more accurately 2 fish swimming in opposite directions are the emblem or symbol of Pisces. at the time of the birth of Jesus 7bc-1ad it was the "dawning of the 2000 year age of Pisces, and "the end of days" of the age of Aries".

Bottom line is not everyone is welcome.

i dont think i have ever been into any retail or service establishment that
someplace there wasn't a sign posted
WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE. in short
NOT EVERYONE IS WELCOME. ever been to a club that had a bouncer? been to the airport recently?

Originally posted by lost
axeman, i hadnt thought of that. i suppose it does show initiative, but i imagine (not sure) that most masons know other masons and want to be part of the club before they go knocking on lodge doors.

Well, of course I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I didn't know any Masons when I started looking into it. I knew that my grandfathers had both at one time been Masons (only after I started researching), but neither of them were while I knew them. I will agree that probably a majority of people who join probably knew someone who was a Mason before hand, but I'm sure there are lots like me who started out thinking the were devil worshipping baby burners heheh. Needless to say, once I started talking to Masons and reading, I changed my mind.

please axeman, elaborate on the 'truth' would you? or dont

The truth is that Freemasonry is a fraternity of good men striving to be better men. They have a few handshakes and whatnot that they keep to themselves, as is their right. They also do not divulge ritual to outsiders, but that is only so that new initiates will have a fresh experience and so it will have a more profound effect on him than if he already knew what was coming. The truth is that if people have a problem with that, it is just that. Their problem. I don't expect anything to change and frankly, I hope it doesn't.

lastly, as an individual i would never make an oath that ties me to a group of men that largly i do not know simply because i want to serve or donate charities. call me unpatriotic, but likewise, i will not align myself with a country that i believe to to be going down the drain. i suppose some would say president bush prides himself on his honor and integrity, but i do not believe it. nor will i defend the illogical actions of him or masons.

That is your choice to make, and I will not call you anything but lost. I wish you well.

[edit on 11/23/04 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by saint4God
Yes. I disapprove of withholding any information from your spouse because it breaks one of my favorite words --> trust.

Great I agree completely.

Yes. Quartley the church I attend posts their income & expenditures in the bulletin & provide a contact for questions. No individual names are included. First time I've ever seen a church do it and think it's really cool!

Great.
So if you wanted to you could attend each commitee meeting at the Church, or are there some things they do as a committee ?

Someone please (besides a Christmas gift/Birthday surpise) give me a good reason why anyone should withhold information in a personal relationship.

Cannot think of any in a personal relationship, but what about all those organized relationships. Local Government, Social services, Companies, Social Groups, Church Commitees, Police, Hospitals and many more. Surely no one is trying to suggest that Freemasons are the only people who do not give up all the information regarding itself Try walking into a Hospital and asking to sit in on a meeting or a local Church.

Now I agree its not exactly the same, Masons have a volutary code not to disclose information. With most Companies and Groups its LAW, they must not disclose.

I guess from this statement that would include Military Service. You seem however more than willing to sit back and let others serve and defend your
right to be here puking your particular brand of pablum.

yep, i was puking it. big heads up, this is the internet and never has anyone needed 'rights' -just access. also, could you point out that specific military that is defending my right to puke? no i didnt think so. so sorry, bad example.

Closed at authors request.