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What actually do you people not like about Freemasonry?

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posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:01 AM
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The " would you lie for a Brother Mason " wasnt directed at you, it was part of my Hypothetical question to the Hypothetical Masons

Yes i live in Yorkshire England and mighty proud of it too
.
I think the closest Lodge to me is Regent Lodge No. 2856. I think i may fire off an e mail and see if they can answer a couple of my questions.




posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:11 AM
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Janus - Bondi

I have followed your conversation with interest. I am pleased one of the Kooks has not dropped in to spoil the train of it.

May I just fill in a couple of points I think need clarifying.

The G-d spelling is in commonn use and does not mean the person is jewish, which it has no relevance anyway.

Much of the living theatre which is freemasonry is founded on the historical Bible content, with some deal of poetic license. It includes what you may call legends, speculative tales spun from some accepted facts. The point of it all is to press home some of the value words you have used in your discussions. But it does include a reverence for God.

It is not true to say one has to have Honor in order to become a Mason. In like manner it is not true to say someone is a teacher on the first day at Teacher training college.

For many hundreds of years it has been the accepted position of Freemasonry, not to defend itself. However with the advent of fast and easy access communication, we have seen an explosion of Anti Masonic publications , web sites and even Radio and TV programs. About 4 to 5 years ago, it was indicated that we would be allowed to answer the critics of Freemasonry with what we see as the Truth.

I am probably one of the most vocal in defence of Masonry on the internet. For this I receive a great deal of criticism from my Brethren, they do not understand why I bother to answer such unfounded accusations.

The zeal by which we defend our craft. Well this is because to us Freemasonry in some cases has made an impact in our lives so profound that it is an insult to some wonderful people that have caused that impact.

I can tell you a hundred stories, but let us use one as an example.

Lets use me for this example. When I was much younger I had a thriving business, employed about 45 people. I was Mr. Popular. I had people knocking on my door every hour of the night and day. My Bank manager used to take me out to lunch regularly, life was good and easy.

I got sick, try as hard as I could I physically could not get up and go to work. The busines crumbled within 6 months. For the next six years, not one of these people knocked at my door, not one. So long as I paid for their meals, holidays, cars etc. I was Bill the wonderful.

Well being a hard Bstd, I got back on my feet , one of my Pals asked me to join the Masons, which I did. About 5 years ago the illness returned. Not one of the hundreds of masons I know have neglected to send a card , call or come round to see if I am OK.

Let me ask you, is that not worth defending.

Theron will be fine, he is one of the most honest, straight talking people I have ever been in contact with. If you want to find him , a google search for Theron Dunn will do the trick. I have never actually met him , but i am proud to call him a friend. If he wants something from me all he has to do is ask. Let me tell you this , if I ever want anything from HIM , all I have to do is ask.

So in conclusion, IF what YOU read about Masonry , on the internet, in the papers, was true there would be no need for me to say anything. Check the threads here, they are not started by Masons. But when someone comes here and states, Freemasones are evil because they worship the Devil? what do I do sit back and let it go. Naaaaagh not me, you bet your sweet bippy I am going to show it for what it is. On the assumption , one is innocent untill PROVEN Guilty.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:13 AM
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Janus,

The best information is always for the source. Or at least the best things to investigate are. They will answer your questions and these will develope more questions and I am sure they will answer those as well.

I am sure you will find the answers you are looking for.

Let me know how you get on, it's been nice talking with you.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
..... oh and by the way would you lie to protect a brother Mason?"


Actually, I think the answer a Mason would give you is NO. Masons pride themselves on their honor and lying would be a blemish on that.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:14 AM
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answer to original question: secrecy.

that goes for every fraternity; from the bohemian grove to your keg party frats. -generally, two kinds of people join them: cheaters, and followers. cheaters, because they like a fancy title to hide behind, and followers because they are weak minded in need of fellowship and support to feel special. sure "service this and service that." why the secrets?

-i know i know, i could go and join and then know the secrets however trivial they might be. point is - i dont need to keep secrets to feel special. it must be grand to think you're 'elite' because you're part of some 'brotherhood' -bah! favor for a favor bullsh!t. WEAK...


-naturally, there are exceptions to the rule, because each man is an individual, hence there may in fact be some 'brothers' who actually join such frats for noble reasons like service etc. but they are few and have twisted logic; who ever needed a secret to serve?! those few individuals are just being taken advantage of. oh well.

i know there are plenty of masons here at ATS: take a deep breath guys, no harm done.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Janus
..... oh and by the way would you lie to protect a brother Mason?"


Actually, I think the answer a Mason would give you is NO. Masons pride themselves on their honor and lying would be a blemish on that.


The obligation a Freemason takes to support his Brethren specifically excludes anything illiegal. This obligation he takes with one hand on the bible.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:21 AM
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Bill,

An insightful response as always, and may I say I am very happy you've taken the time to look and read through this thread.

I hope I haven't stated anything untrue, or caused any concern by my comments.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by lost
two kinds of people join them: cheaters, and followers. cheaters, because they like a fancy title to hide behind, and followers because they are weak minded in need of fellowship and support to feel special. sure "service this and service that." why the secrets?

- i dont need to keep secrets to feel special. it must be grand to think you're 'elite' because you're part of some 'brotherhood' -bah! favor for a favor bullsh!t. WEAK...




I take it you are speking in general terms, but you last throw away remark indicates Masons.

I dont have a fancy title , I certainly have not used one here, so how is that hiding. ?

Secrets, well lets see. If I wanted to find out what kind of person you were, what do I base that on. Evidence, if I tell you my wife has 3 ears, then the day after my next door nieghbor come to me and says , I understand your wife has 3 ears, well I know you told him and you are not to be trusted. Quite simple really, its what we all do in evry day life. you have violated my trust.

You build a family on trust, there is no substitute for that basic requirement.

If you think I am weak, then test me. I am prepared to be tested at anytime anywhere. Being judgemental is not being strong. However if solitude works for you , great, for many we need to have others in our lives. It is for the individual to choose.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by lost
two kinds of people join them: cheaters, and followers. cheaters, because they like a fancy title to hide behind, and followers because they are weak minded in need of fellowship and support to feel special. sure "service this and service that." why the secrets?


That's very suggestive, and not really in tune with this thread. I simple enquire to the reasons why people dislike freemasonry, I am not interested in degrading opinion, just general concerns.


-i know i know, i could go and join and then know the secrets however trivial they might be. point is - i dont need to keep secrets to feel special. it must be grand to think you're 'elite' because you're part of some 'brotherhood' -bah! favor for a favor bullsh!t. WEAK...


Too be honest, I don't think you could join freemasonry on any other fraternity based group I know of, your first impression is antogonistic, and argumentitive, you seem the kind of person who starts a row and then leaves every one else to argue it out. Freemasonry has never claimed to be the eilte of anything, if you are refering to an alternate group then please post your opinion in a relavant thread.



-naturally, there are exceptions to the rule...there may in fact be some 'brothers' who actually join such frats for noble reasons like service etc. but they are few and have twisted logic


A sensible comment, there is always an exception, I would be interested to know how many freemason's you know and a percentage of them that you feel are okay. Seeing as you feel the percentage is in favour of the negative mason rather than the positive side. And maybe you could throw an insight into the logic you refer to. The problem with posts like this is the claim is made but with no real evidence. Please refrain from posting withou mere opinion without the because on the end of it.


i know there are plenty of masons here at ATS: take a deep breath guys, no harm done.


I am sure you don't believe that you post is going to cause concernt to the fraternity of freemason, even a true anti-masonry would be ashamed of this one.

Feel free to repost, with legimate dislikes and concerns as this is what the thread is intended for. If not try some where else please.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by Bondi
Janus,

The best information is always for the source. Or at least the best things to investigate are. They will answer your questions and these will develope more questions and I am sure they will answer those as well.

I am sure you will find the answers you are looking for.

Let me know how you get on, it's been nice talking with you.


The pleasure is all mine Bondi, nice that a disscussion about Masonary can end without name calling and Mudslinging. Thankyou for your comments Bill McElligott ill take on board what you have said.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:44 AM
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Janus,

I would recommend keeping an eye on this thread.

As you now know first hand that a discusison on freemasonry can be conducted in a civilised manner.

It will be interesting to see who starts throwing mud first



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
I wouldnt say i didnt like Freemasonary, its just that i find Freemasonary's almost fanatical defense of its self a bit, well a bit disturbing.

I believe that if you were continually derided you would defend yourself vigorously as well. On another note, for accuracy's sake, there is no second "A" in Freemasonry or Masonry.



I would take Therron Dunn as an example. Some of Therrons comments i found a bit strange his perculier habit of spelling God as g-d it came across as though he couldnt bear to write it properly.

Theron's penchant for writing "G-d" vice God stems from his devout beliefs, and a reverence to God. I find it "perculier" that you find it peculiar; I hold no Judeo-Christian beliefs (and yes, I'm a Freemason), but I have no problem at all respecting the beliefs (and their idiosyncrasies) of those I come into contact with... I find tolerance to be the best "First Tenet".



Also i remember a comment by him to PublicGadfly saying that as a "mere outsider" he wouldnt understand what he meant, it came across as though everyone outside of Masonary was of no importance and that nothing mattered but Masonary.
You must understand that these are just my impressions of the Man and his beliefs and in no way representive of what he is really like, for all i know he is a nice guy.

I believe what Theron was conveying was that the profane (if you are not a Mason, you are profane in regards to this subject), cannot comment on the nuances of the fraternity, because he (PG, you, they) are ignorant of the details (much less the basics) of Freemasonry (memo to all: spare me the anecdotes).



My point is that for most people the only contact we have of Masonary is through converations we have on these boards and the imppresion i get is that some times Masons perhaps defend themselves a bit too hard, and that makes people think that perhaps there is more to the roumers regarding Masons then perhaps there is. Masons like Therron, no matter how good their intentions are, sometimes cause Masonary more harm than good.

As opposed to the “good intent” of the detractors of Freemasonry? The impression I get of “those” people are that they are poorly schooled, barely literate, easily manipulated fools. This is demonstrated over and over again within this Forum, a quick ATS search will produce a cornucopia of threads that supports this in painful detail (my personal favorite was a poster who had to include “From Hell” and Mystery Religions” in every sentence of every post). Just priceless.



Anyway back to the topic of the thread. I personally have a problem with any society that can have an affect directly on my life without my consent, I.E. Masons that uphold the Laws that are there to protect and serve me for instance. Although you can argue that Masons in Law Enforcement and the Courts would never put Masonary before their reponsibility to the Law, there is still a doubt in the back of peoples minds. Would Judge X let Crimanal Y have a lighter sentance because they belong to the same Lodge for instance or would Employer A employ Employee B over me because he is a Mason even though i am better qualified.

In the U.S. there are few Freemasons in government, and they don’t figure in the judicial system, I will defer to one of the U.K. Masons as to the prevalence of Freemasons within the ranks of law enforcement and government there (I don’t believe it to be much). I regards to the employment issue, I know Theron would not hire a less qualified individual on the basis of membership within the Craft, but I do agree if two candidates for a position are equally qualified then the Brother will get the nod (this happens in countless permutations across the gamut of affiliations, be it fraternities, school, city, even ethnicities, religion, and gender… it’s not “right”, but to deny the propensity of occurrence is just ignorant).



Going back to Therron, i believe he said that almost all his Employees are Masons and that he would take a Mason on before a none Mason. ( Sorry for using him as an example again but its those first impressions again
)
That is why a lot of people find it so hard to trust what Masons say, or at least it is for me.

Previously addressed. I find what anyone has to say that cannot be substantiated by other means as dubious at best.



By the way, what happened to Therron?


Apparently the “Pro Mason”… “Controlled by Masons”… “Just a bunch of Masons (or Mason lovers)”… ATS Moderators and Admin banned him. Reasons unknown, but interesting that once again the perception of “what is”, was wrong.



[edit on 19/11/2004 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:14 AM
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Thankyou for your input, im sorry my spelling offends you but i have a slight case of word blindness and do spell things incorrectly from time to time, and i dont always put things through a spell checker even though i know i should.
My questions were not meant to offend, they were just that...Questions. I dont really consider myself Anti anything but i suppose i was bound to be labeled as such. The Questions i asked were answered more or less to my satisfaction and i plan on asking them to a Mason face to face, as has been said before on this thread its much easier to judge someone when you look them in the eye.
Again thankyou for your input.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:18 AM
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Ok, first off I'm a Mason.
I've been in the Lodge for almost five years, currently I'm junior warden in my lodge. I've never seen anything like alot of you folks talk about. Masonary is nothing more than the world oldest and largest mens fraternal organization. We also give millions of dollars away to charity every day. I don't know why son people think we worship the devil and nonsense like this. I hope this Disney movie National Treasure will open some peoples eyes so they can see that masonic principles are what this country was founded upon. I'm sorry if you think were a cult, but were not most of us are good, honest, born again Christian men that live right in the community you live in. Masonary teaches that were are to tolerate each other even if we don't agree on some issues. This is why you never see your local lodges having ads or commercials try to dispell the meths of our fraternity. There are no reall secrets now that you have the internet. If you look real hard you can find all of our passwords, and handshakes right here on the net. I will probably by kicked off this site but I would at least like to speak up for my fraternity.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
My questions were not meant to offend, they were just that...Questions


I am sure your particular questions were not found offensive, I would presume that the responder has just answered similar so often.


I dont really consider myself Anti anything but i suppose i was bound to be labeled as such


I definetley would not class you as Anti, not towards masonry anyway, you have had the politeness and intellect to ask the questions you wanted answered and I take my hat of to you for that. It is very easy to jump in with both feet and start making accusation, it is the sole intention of many posters to site like this to start conflict.


The Questions i asked were answered more or less to my satisfaction


I am glad my thread has assisted you, that is it's intention.


i plan on asking them to a Mason face to face


You will appreciate it, and it save sifting through a lot of codswallop to find an actual fact.


Again thankyou for your input.


You will always get it from thelikes of me

[edit on 19/11/2004 by Bondi]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:00 AM
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QUOTE: That's very suggestive, and not really in tune with this thread. I simple enquire to the reasons why people dislike freemasonry, I am not interested in degrading opinion, just general concerns.

-you simple enquire? is that what you do?... lol.

im sorry, i hadnt realized you owned this thread. i will be leaving now.............. or not. i must not have picked up the rule book to this specific thread, but surely it says in big bold letters "keep 'in tune' with what bingo thinks this thread is supposed to be about." -please
... get over yourself buddy. its really too bad that you're not interested in degrading opinions. oh boohoo. i guess my comments dont qualify as general concerns' -will you please draw that line for me?

QUOTE: Too be honest, I don't think you could join freemasonry on any other fraternity based group I know of, your first impression is antogonistic, and argumentitive, you seem the kind of person who starts a row and then leaves every one else to argue it out. Freemasonry has never claimed to be the eilte of anything, if you are refering to an alternate group then please post your opinion in a relavant thread.

sure, will do.
would you point me to the 'relevant threads section?'

QUOTE: A sensible comment, there is always an exception, I would be interested to know how many freemason's you know and a percentage of them that you feel are okay.

Would you now?

QUOTE: Seeing as you feel the percentage is in favour of the negative mason rather than the positive side. And maybe you could throw an insight into the logic you refer to. The problem with posts like this is the claim is made but with no real evidence.

Is that the problem? no real evidence? yeah, this ATS place is overflowing with evidence..........hmm.

QUOTE: Please refrain from posting withou mere opinion without the because on the end of it.

^whatever that means??

QUOTE: I am sure you don't believe that you post is going to cause concernt to the fraternity of freemason, even a true anti-masonry would be ashamed of this one.

oh no i've failed!
-you know, that was my ultimate goal; to make a 'true anti-masonry' proud... Noooooo, actually it was to answer the original question, which I did, and backed up with pretty solid opinions. -(those are allowed here no?)

QUOTE: Feel free to repost, with legimate dislikes and concerns as this is what the thread is intended for.

yes! -ive been given a second chance!! oh thank you thank you!

QUOTE: If not try some where else please.

or what?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wow, that was fun. the below are OPINIONS. let me get that out of the way so we can all sleep tonite.

-I dont like freemasonry because they keep secrets.

-people who join any fraternity (including masonry) are generally cheaters or followers.

for all you political correcto's: if you would like to further your understanding as to why I hold the above opinions, please see my first post in this thread on page 2. ok enough already....

bingo, do your worst.


[edit on 19-11-2004 by lost]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by mastermason
Ok, first off I'm a Mason.
I've been in the Lodge for almost five years, currently I'm junior warden in my lodge. I've never seen anything like alot of you folks talk about. Masonary is nothing more than the world oldest and largest mens fraternal organization. We also give millions of dollars away to charity every day. I don't know why son people think we worship the devil and nonsense like this. I hope this Disney movie National Treasure will open some peoples eyes so they can see that masonic principles are what this country was founded upon. I'm sorry if you think were a cult, but were not most of us are good, honest, born again Christian men that live right in the community you live in. Masonary teaches that were are to tolerate each other even if we don't agree on some issues. This is why you never see your local lodges having ads or commercials try to dispell the meths of our fraternity. There are no reall secrets now that you have the internet. If you look real hard you can find all of our passwords, and handshakes right here on the net. I will probably by kicked off this site but I would at least like to speak up for my fraternity.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:10 AM
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Instead of more men in masonary, we need more masonary in men.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by lost

-you simple enquire? is that what you do... lol.


I enquire as to help, I merely thought some people would prefer an no argumtitive conversation about a subject they are interested in.


im sorry, i hadnt realized you owned this thread. i will be leaving now.............. or not. i must not have picked up the rule book to this specific thread, but surely it says in big bold letters "keep 'in tune'


I don't own it, but I started it for the reason stated above. As for rule book, it is common courtesty and etiquette when using message boards to stay on topic and within the parameters of the thread you are posting on.


with what bingo thinks this thread is supposed to be about." -


Try reading the title


get over yourself buddy. its really too bad that you're not interested in degrading opinions. oh boohoo. i guess my comments dont qualify as general concerns' -will you please draw that line for me?


There is nothing for me to get over, I have not been inpolite to you, and I have not posted anything inpolite, it is you who has used profanity and degrading comments. And you have not stated a concern, merely your degradin opinion.

[qoute] sure, will do.
would you point me to the 'relevant threads section?'[/qoute]

I hope you do, but I am sure with the fact you are adult enough to use profanity, you are able to read and quite capable of figuring that out for yourself.


Would you now?


I wouldn't of asked otherwise.



Is that the problem? no real evidence? yeah, this ATS place is overflowing with evidence..........hmm.


If that is so, why have you still not stated any?


^whatever that means??


It means exactly what it says. If you have a concern, or a question then please post. If you want to post dribble and slander freemasonry don't, there are plent of other threads you can join in on.


oh no i've failed!


Only you can be the judge of that



yes! -ive been given a second chance!! oh thank you thank you!


Not really worth responding to really, but you can post as much as you like I merely ask that you respect the others and keep in topic, it's not that difficult.


or what?


It wasn't a threat or any kind, merely suggestive direction. If you are not getting what you want from this particular thread there are many more to seek fulfilment. Or you could start you own.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


wow, that was fun.


Glad you enjoyed yourself, hope you feel better for getting that of your chest.


-I dont like freemasonry because they keep secrets.


Who doesn't? If you dislike something because it has a secret you will end very lonely. Every body has them, as does every organisation and religion in the world.


bingo, do your worst.


Not quite sure if you are challenging me to do something here, or whether the use of bingo is reference to your enjoyment of the game.

I am not here to do worst at anything, I have just tried to create an informative thread, which I believe is what these forums are all about.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:26 AM
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wow, that was fun. the below are OPINIONS. let me get that out of the way so we can all sleep tonite.

-I dont like freemasonry because they keep secrets.

-people who join any fraternity (including masonry) are generally cheaters or followers.

for all you political correcto's: if you would like to further your understanding as to why I hold the above opinions, please see my first post in this thread on page 2. ok enough already....

bingo, do your worst.


No wonder your lost?

I spend 15 minutes answering your last post and you dont bother to respond. posted on 19-11-2004 at 02:32 AM Post Number: 968795

Then you have ago at someone who it seems to me was quite respectful considering you are after a reaction.


You finish your posts with:



i know there are plenty of masons here at ATS: take a deep breath guys, no harm done.




bingo, do your worst.


Then compalin when someone does, do his worst that is.

You call people cheats and and followers, then wonder why they snap back.

Well you've got big ears so there.





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