What actually do you people not like about Freemasonry?

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posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 04:38 AM
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I have to ask, cause so far I have only actually read accusations, repeats of other peoples comments, or people jumping on the band wagon.

Could some one write.

" I don't like freemasonry because..."

In example,

I don't like men who wear aprons
or
I feel it goes against my beliefs
or
I don't like the thought of secret societies (which technically it isn't otherwise you wouldn't know about it)

or something like that.

It's okay to slander an organisation because it does tests on animals, is racist and things like that, but to try and disgrace an organisation that is the second largest donator to charites, after the national lotteries, in the world, upholds morals and requires it's members to be true to their god, country, wife and jobs before itself because of something you read, that is written by someone you don't know, or because of something you heard but never experinced is crazy.

I am interested in your comments




posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:16 AM
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I wouldnt say i didnt like Freemasonary, its just that i find Freemasonary's almost fanatical defense of its self a bit, well a bit disturbing.
I would take Therron Dunn as an example. Some of Therrons comments i found a bit strange his perculier habit of spelling God as g-d it came across as though he couldnt bear to write it properly. Also i remember a comment by him to PublicGadfly saying that as a "mere outsider" he wouldnt understand what he meant, it came across as though everyone outside of Masonary was of no importance and that nothing mattered but Masonary.
You must understand that these are just my impressions of the Man and his beliefs and in no way representive of what he is really like, for all i know he is a nice guy.
My point is that for most people the only contact we have of Masonary is through converations we have on these boards and the imppresion i get is that some times Masons perhaps defend themselves a bit too hard, and that makes people think that perhaps there is more to the roumers regarding Masons then perhaps there is. Masons like Therron, no matter how good their intentions are, sometimes cause Masonary more harm than good.
Anyway back to the topic of the thread. I personally have a problem with any society that can have an affect directly on my life without my consent, I.E. Masons that uphold the Laws that are there to protect and serve me for instance. Although you can argue that Masons in Law Enforcement and the Courts would never put Masonary before their reponsibility to the Law, there is still a doubt in the back of peoples minds. Would Judge X let Crimanal Y have a lighter sentance because they belong to the same Lodge for instance or would Employer A employ Employee B over me because he is a Mason even though i am better qualified.
Going back to Therron, i believe he said that almost all his Employees are Masons and that he would take a Mason on before a none Mason. ( Sorry for using him as an example again but its those first impressions again
)
That is why a lot of people find it so hard to trust what Masons say, or at least it is for me.

By the way, what happened to Therron?

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Janus]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
i found a bit strange his perculier habit of spelling God as g-d it came across as though he couldnt bear to write it properly.
[edit on 19-11-2004 by Janus]


The only people I know that do not write the name of G-D, are Jews. It is forbidden to write the name of G-d.

Why Do Some Jews Spell God, "G-d?"

www.apostolic.net...


Is T Dunn a Jew?



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:43 AM
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Err... how about the fact that it's exclusive... i.e. it excludes "normal" folk from its ranks.

No don't even bother to tell me all are welcome who belive in a supreme (grand) being (architect), coz it not about trying to admit everybody. What I am getting at is this: imagine a case where A) everyone was elligable to join the masons and B) actually wanted to join... the EVERYONE would be a mason (still with my hyopthetical situation?)... what good would that do? It would no longer be a) a secret and b) not very excvlusive... what fun would there be in that?



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:45 AM
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Janus,

Thank-you for making the first sensible comment I've read, and at least it is one of your own.

As for Therron I do not know him personally, although like you I have read numerous threads on other sites as well as this one, that include some of his comments. Some may look a little extreme, but one of the biggest problems with message boards is you don't know how the person has read the previous post. Maybe if his membership had not been banned we could ask if he was offended by a previous post or if his response was intended in the way it has been perceived by others. On that note I have noticed that only masons have been banned from this particular forum, mere coinsidence? or another conspiracy theory in the making LOL. As for his comment to Public Gadfly, that is obviously a personal matter not to be judged by anyone else, I have also read some of PG's comments and they are not exaclty friendly, informative or based on fact. If he was stepping up to me in that manner I'd want to slap him down with a wet fish and all, but that is by the by.

As for the writing of God as G_d, it is not unusual, I was always required to write it in this manner in Religous Education at school, and there is a particular reference to it being written this way I am sure, but I am no scholar.

Freemasons will defend their fraternity hard, it is something they believe, as in morals not religously, very strongly. I would imagine it is very hard to have to keep defending yourself over the same misconceptions over and over again. Take the UK, any one who has been assisted by the quick response ambulance teams throughout the many counties, received treatment in the specialist sections of a lot of hospitals, were an orphan and things like that, donations from Freemasonry helped, but because they donate so much anonymously people just don't realise.

With regards to employment and mason's getting a job in front of someone else, it's a touchy subject admittedly. Many mason's would rather employ a fellow mason because they know they can trust them. If you needed a babysitter would you use little joan from next door who you've seen grow up over the last ten years, or sarah who happened to apply for the post. If your were guaranteed of getting a job becuase you were a mason I think people would put it on their CV's. I believe there is something in the Book of Constitution regarding the employing of brethren,in which it states if you are to choose between two people of equal skill, knowledge, experience, and equal in every way then you should choose a mason, but the fact that would never actually happen if you take it as it's written negates the problem.

I believe you can still reach Theron via the masonic forums. A better place for informationregarding the craft as there is less speculation. And you will also find a few mason asking questions about the fraternity. They hide nothing except the modes of recognition and they are generally really nice guys.

I think I covered everything, but if not re-post the bits I missed.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by Corinthas
Err... how about the fact that it's exclusive... i.e. it excludes "normal" folk from its ranks.

No don't even bother to tell me all are welcome who belive in a supreme (grand) being (architect), coz it not about trying to admit everybody. What I am getting at is this: imagine a case where A) everyone was elligable to join the masons and B) actually wanted to join... the EVERYONE would be a mason (still with my hyopthetical situation?)... what good would that do? It would no longer be a) a secret and b) not very excvlusive... what fun would there be in that?


What group isn't exclusive? Name me one group that doesn't have requirements to join?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the rest, you are complaining because it is exclusive and then stating how rubbish it would be if it wasn't

feel free to post again

Oh! and I presume you will post what you mean by "normal people" it's a little vague and hard to answer

[edit on 19/11/2004 by Bondi]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:51 AM
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Is T Dunn a Jew?


Couldn't honeslty tell you, like I said to Janus, he posts on the masonic forums, you could always go and ask him.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:58 AM
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What i was getting at is this exclusivity makes people feel left out... the masons are REALLY good at making people feel left out!

After that i was trying to argue that one masonrys main goals is exclusivity.. allthough like i said stating this usually has them jump striaght in to defensive mode and claim it wants and allows everyone/anyone to join. And it this i was trying to debunk, as a secret group like that needs its exclusivity to give it that little something special.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by NetStorm

Originally posted by Janus
i found a bit strange his perculier habit of spelling God as g-d it came across as though he couldnt bear to write it properly.
[edit on 19-11-2004 by Janus]


The only people I know that do not write the name of G-D, are Jews. It is forbidden to write the name of G-d.

Why Do Some Jews Spell God, "G-d?"

www.apostolic.net...


Is T Dunn a Jew?



Thankyou for that Netstorm! I never knew that some Jews did not spell the word God. Ive learnt something new, thats what i love about ATS.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:14 AM
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I have had some time to look at Masonary over the last month or so ( i crashed my Moterbike and have been laid up in Hospital with nothing to do but read ) and as i said before the only real thing that bothers me is how Masons can infuence our daily lives without our knowlage or consent.
I dont know that much about the subject, only what i have read, but you must admit the distrust people feel for Masonary is in a way a byproduct of the secrecy aspect of the Brotherhood its self. Im of the opinion that any organisation, Police, Lawyers Court officials etc should not be members of any orginasation that could result in a conflict of interest, i.e. between their reposibility to the people they serve and their obligation to the Masons or any other orginisation that is deemed a "secret society".
Also a lot of Masons seem to put across the message that to have Honour and to be trustworthy you have to be a Mason or that only Masons would qualify for those virtues. I consider myself to be a Honourable and trustworthy person and im not a Mason, its those first immpressions again lol.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by Corinthas
What i was getting at is this exclusivity makes people feel left out... the masons are REALLY good at making people feel left out!


But why would you feel left out. If you are 21 or over, male, and believe in a god by what ever name you call it, you can join if you want, and be an honest person with morals. Not exaclt y the most exclusive club about is it.


After that i was trying to argue that one masonrys main goals is exclusivity.. allthough like i said stating this usually has them jump striaght in to defensive mode and claim it wants and allows everyone/anyone to join. And it this i was trying to debunk, as a secret group like that needs its exclusivity to give it that little something special.


To have something another group doesn't have does make it more desireable, but it's not like Freemasonry is the only one that requires certain things to join, my local football club requires me to be male, over 16 and live in the village. Has the same amount of requirements but I don't see no posts about Saxmundham Football Club on here!.

As for secret group, they are not exactly hidden from the limelight are they. You do not see them denying their existence or what they do.

It just seems that because Freemasonry is so well known compared with other fraternities it os the one that gets the most flack, because people do know about it. There is a lot worse out there that get hardly a mention if any at all.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
as i said before the only real thing that bothers me is how Masons can infuence our daily lives without our knowlage or consent.


A common thought, but why is it only cast towards Freemasonry, I've been turned down a job because I supported a certain football club, the bloke interviewing me noticed a bumper sticker in my car. I knew the bloke who got the job and he informed me of the fact once he'd started and the employer had mentioned it.


I dont know that much about the subject


I am glad that you admit your lack of knowledge, and that you have not deemed to lower yourself with using hype and rumour in your arguments,


only what i have read, but you must admit the distrust people feel for Masonary is in a way a byproduct of the secrecy aspect of the Brotherhood its self. Im of the opinion that any organisation, Police, Lawyers Court officials etc should not be members of any orginasation that could result in a conflict of interest, i.e. between their reposibility to the people they serve and their obligation to the Masons


Do masons have the fact they are member tatooed on their foreheads or something
If you look at police office, or a judge, do you know if they are a mason or not? I am reluctant to believe that a mason knows every other mason.


or any other orginisation that is deemed a "secret society".


Freemasonry isn't a secret society, as I have just posted above, if it was it isn't a very good at keeping secrets. And even if it was, the users of this site seem to know everything about it, and there doesn;t seem to be anything to scary that I've read.


Also a lot of Masons seem to put across the message that to have Honour and to be trustworthy you have to be a Mason or that only Masons would qualify for those virtues. I consider myself to be a Honourable and trustworthy person and im not a Mason, its those first immpressions again lol.


Your first impression comment is very true, and it is often a misplaced phrase, or incorrect wording that may have caused problems for masons when defending the fraternity. My take on the whole trustworthy thing and masons is basically the fact that if one mason meets another, than know with aboutm 90% certaintity that the person they are speaking with is trustworthy, and honesty. This doesn't mean to say that those who are not masons aren't. If i was to meet you in the pub for a drink, it could take 5 minutes or another couple of visits to the pub for you to know and judge if I was a good person or not. I think the point they are trying to make is that they now straight away with a felloe mason, but like I said that rule is not 100% true.

[edit on 19/11/2004 by Bondi]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:41 AM
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Do masons have the fact they are member tatooed on their foreheads or something If you look at police office, or a judge, do you know if they are a mason or not? I am reluctant to believe that a mason knows every other mason.


No of course they dont
but there are ways for one Mason to recognise another, secret handshakes are probably not the only way a Mason can know another. I believe the way Masons recognise each other are part of the secrets that you dont give away? Please correct me if im wrong.

Please understand im not trying to bait you in any way, these are genuine concerns i have regarding Masonary.


[edit on 19-11-2004 by Janus]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by Janus

No of course they dont
but there are ways for one Mason to recognise another, secret handshakes are probably not the only way a Mason can know another. I believe the way Masons recognise each other are part of the secrets that you dont give away? Please correct me if im wrong.


By your post, you have presumed I am a Mason
.

As for modes of recognition, in the instances that matter, like arrests, court rooms, etc you don't see many accuser and accusee shaking hands so that is not a problem. And I would say like with most groups modes of recognition they are generally flamboyant, or out of the ordinary, their not likely to use a smile as acknowledgement of membership. So with that in mind, when you start seeing a man in the docks with on finger in his ear, barking like a seal, that is when I would begin to worry


In all seriousness though, there is not much opportunity to convey membership of the AA Car Breakdown service in most cases of security, policing etc let alone going through the motions of showing you are a mason, and as mentioned it would stand out like a sore



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:49 AM
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Im sorry i did jump to the conclusion you are a Mason, you do seem knowlegable about the subject.
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Are you a Mason?


[edit on 19-11-2004 by Janus]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
Im sorry i did jump to the conclusion you are a Mason, you do seem knowlegable about the subject.


Can I ask was it because I am knowledgeable, or because you don't know any non-masons who defend the fraternity.


Are you a Mason?


Does it make a difference?
Will you read my answers in a different way if I am?
How many people will now presume I am if they didn't already?

And I bet someone will try and find out and post a result right here, do you know why? because people always think there is a hidden agenda. Because I am pro masonry, if I were a mason it would explain it. That's a generalisation, not pointing the finger at anyone or anything

I could create the impression I am a one person secrest society and see if I can get my own section on this forum



[edit on 19/11/2004 by Bondi]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:16 AM
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It wouldnt make a difference to me, you seem like a nice guy and i try not to pre judge anyone, even though i fail sometimes, i do try.
I was just asking out of curiosity nothing more, it is of course up to you if you say you are a Mason or not, you are under no obligation to me or anyone else.
There are regular posters here on ATS who are pro Mason but are not Masons themselves and i respect and value their opinions as much as i do the posters who are Masons.
As i mentioned before i have genuine concerns regarding Masonary and other orginisations i suspect are not completely honest in the way their groups could impact on our daily lives. I do agree that Masonary gets most of the stick because it is the one people know about and i agree that there are probably worse ones out there that we dont know about, but the topic of your thread was about Masonary so i replied as to why i didnt trust Masonary.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
It wouldnt make a difference to me, you seem like a nice guy and i try not to pre judge anyone, even though i fail sometimes, i do try.


I am glad it wouldn;t make a difference and it shouldn't hence I haven't made any claims either way. makes me feel I will get an unbiased audience.


As i mentioned before i have genuine concerns regarding Masonary and other orginisations i suspect are not completely honest in the way their groups could impact on our daily lives.


Have you every thought of going to a lodge? In fact as long as you meet the criteria mentioned earlier in this thread, why not have a go at it. You can always leave, and don't worry about all this they don;t let you, or they make your life worthless etc etc if that was the case there would be no postings on the net of ritual's exposed and all that. That would be the only way to put your mind at rest. I am sure if you approached a local lodge just for a Q & A session they would be more than happy and you would see the kind of people that are involved and could ask your questions face to face, a lot easier to tell if people are lying or not.


I do agree that Masonary gets most of the stick because it is the one people know about and i agree that there are probably worse ones out there that we dont know about, but the topic of your thread was about Masonary so i replied as to why i didnt trust Masonary.


I know, I thought of that once I posted it.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:38 AM
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Dont you need to be invited to a Lodge? Or be recomended by a Mason? I would like to meet a Mason face to face and ask them a few questions but would they be completly Honest with a non Mason?
I have about 5 Lodges within about a 10 mile radius of where i live in Yorkshire, but i cant imagine knocking on the door and saying " hi do you mind if i came in and ask you how you feel about masonary and its potential for missuse? ..... oh and by the way would you lie to protect a brother Mason?"
Im not sure that would go down too well.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
Dont you need to be invited to a Lodge? Or be recomended by a Mason?


I you want to join you will need to be proposed by a mason yes. If you don't know one simply contact a lodge and I presume a couple will meet you and then you can ask questions and if you wanted to join, it would then be down to the impression you made. One of the best things about the selection process is the proposer is responsible for the initiate. Helps wit the selectiveness I suppose, but does mean you need to be thought of as a good person which isn't so bad.


I would like to meet a Mason face to face and ask them a few questions but would they be completly Honest with a non Mason?


It's not hard, if you no where the lodges are, simple go up to one and ask, there is normally information about their meeting times etc, although I would think it would be better to turn up before or after the meeting else you probably wont see anyone. And as for honesty, to my knowledge there is nothing to hide as long as you don't ask them to show you the modes of recognition. And I would think you will get a good feeling as to whether they are lying or not, at least enough to judge for yourself.


I have about 5 Lodges within about a 10 mile radius of where i live in Yorkshire, but i cant imagine knocking on the door and saying " hi do you mind if i came in and ask you how you feel about masonary and its potential for missuse?


I think you would be surprised, I presume you mean Yorkshire in England, I am in Suffolk and that is exactly what I did. Except I phoned the provincial lodge that covers Suffolk and the lodge phoned me and arranged a meeting. Went to my local pub infact. There was no mention of me joining I simple asked if I could ask them some quesitons. They suggested the face to facce meeting as they felt I would appreciate it more.


..... oh and by the way would you lie to protect a brother Mason?"
Im not sure that would go down too well.


Again on the presumption I am a Mason


Let me put this to you, if you had a little brother who dropped your mums favourite vase and was really scared about it, would you say you done it? I would because a lie isn't always a bad one in the right circumstances and in certain circumstances and doesn't affect the outcome.

If you would prefer to give me an example for a more direct answer of yes or no, then please do.





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