Hawaiian Official Who Released Obama's Birth Certificate Dies In Crash

reply to post by Zaphod58

i'm not running away from anything.
the air marshall comment was pages ago and in ONE post, no drift.

the BC however, has Ms Fuddy's assertions all over it, hence, it's relevant, whether you all like it or not.

neither the plane failure, the death or the assertions made by the deceased have anything to do with me other than discussion, why does that bother you?

that's just a typical response from those who are tired of repeating the same ole' lies.

reply to post by Honor93


So since it was one post, one page prior to my answer its not open for discussion? Interesting rule.

I haven't "repeated any lies" to be tired of. I'm discussing a plane crash, nothing more.

I've tried to fill in some answers to questions I asked previously or to point out conflicting news reports...

1. What exactly failed in the engine, and why?

Reported so far:

The owner of Makani Kai Air says... "I have spoken with the pilot and the initial report was on his departure from Kalaupapa coming back to Honolulu. As he was taking off, there was a catastrophic engine failure," Schuman said. "He described hearing a large bang and he performed the emergency procedure he is trained to do."
SOURCE

Owner Richard Schuman of Makani Kai Air said... It crashed soon after takeoff, after getting into the air and making its turn toward Honolulu...

The location of the wreckage, combined with wind and wave conditions, likely means it won't be recoverable, NTSB spokesman Eric Weiss added.
SOURCE

2. Of the 1 pilot and 8 passengers on the plane, the Coast Guard says they picked up 3 passengers, the Maui fire crews picked up 5, and 1 person swam ashore. That accounts for everyone on the plane, but which group was Fuddy in?

it's unclear whether these news reports conflict or represent different points in time.

Three people were transported to Molokai General Hospital and three people to Oahu, while two people declined treatment, remaining in Kalaupapa.
SOURCE

Coast Guard Petty Officer Melissa McKenzie said a Coast Guard helicopter rescued three passengers from the water and Maui fire crews picked up others. One person swam ashore.

McKenzie said the helicopter transported three people to Honolulu for medical treatment, while a Coast Guard plane took five people to Maui.
SOURCE

One person was pronounced dead, three were flown to Honolulu and taken by ambulance to the Queen's Medical Center. Another three stayed on Molokai and were hospitalized. The rest did not need any medical help.
SOURCE

After the crash, Fuddy’s body was taken to a care home at Kalaupapa, where Killilea, the pastor of Kalaupapa’s St. Francis Church, said he made the sign of the cross on her forehead as she lay on a gurney surrounded by nurses and the distraught Yamamoto.

...Three survivors were transported by helicopter to a Honolulu hospital; two declined to be medically evacuated; and three were taken to Molokai General Hospital with minor injuries...

Molokai hospital staff helped them dry their clothing and gave them a place to rest until they could get rooms at the island’s only hotel, hospital Vice President Randy Lite said. They checked out of the hotel early Thursday.
SOURCE

3. What was the cause of Fuddy's death?

An autopsy is pending.
SOURCE

4. Was she already dead when the Coast Guard and Maui fire crew arrived, or did she die after being picked up (or swimming to shore, if she was the swimmer)?

Seriously conflicting reports here!

Molokai firefighters and the Coast Guard responded to the scene where they found eight people in the water wearing life vests, according to the Maui County Fire Department.
SOURCE

One person died in the tragic crash.

"That person remained in the fuselage of the plane. Not much details. Always a difficult situation when you can't get everyone out, and unfortunately that was the case here," Capt. Seelig said.
SOURCE

Fuddy, 65, was among nine people in a Cessna that crashed into the ocean... eight others on the plane, including the pilot, were rescued, but Fuddy "remained in the fuselage of the plane," Honolulu Fire Capt. Terry Seelig told KHON-TV. "It's always a difficult situation when you're not able to get everybody out."

On Thursday, Lt. William Juan with the Maui Police Department said that Fuddy's body had been recovered from the wreckage and that an autopsy would be conducted.
SOURCE

The Rev. Patrick Killilea, pastor of St. Francis Church at Kalaupapa, recalled how he made sign of the cross on Fuddy's forehead when her body was taken to a care home after the crash.

"I did give her conditional last rites, not knowing exactly what time she passed," he said. "From what I understand, she could have been deceased for a couple of hours."

The priest said Yamamoto shared how he had held Fuddy's hand in the water after the plane went down.

"They were in their life preservers," Killilea said. "At some point she let go, and there was no response."
SOURCE

In the final moments of her life, Hawaii Health Director Loretta Fuddy clung to the hand of her deputy after a small plane taking them back to Honolulu crashed in the ocean off the island of Molokai.

...In the water, Fuddy held hands with deputy director Keith Yamamoto as he tried to help her relax, said the Rev. Patrick Killilea, who consoled Yamamoto after the ordeal.

“He recounted how he said he helped Loretta into her life jacket and he held her hand for some time,” the priest said. “They were all floating together and she let go and there was no response from her.”
SOURCE

5. Who swam ashore, and was there any reason someone might have wanted that person dead also (if it wasn't Fuddy)?

Not known except it wasn't Fuddy.

6. How hard would it have been for someone to swim to shore from a half-mile northwest of Kalaupapa peninsula?

Molokai has some of the most treacherous seas in the world...eight passengers and pilot were forced to try to escape the wreckage and brave large surf and dangerous conditions...
SOURCE

7. Had any news just come out regarding Fuddy and the birth certificate or hinting she might be talking to anyone such as the Sheriff's Posse about the birth certificate?

Affidavits filed in court in October allege Fuddy involvement in forged Obama birth certificates. One names a Jane Doe forger & was sealed to allegedly prevent her murder.
REFERENCE (PDF on Scribd)

Honor93
reply to post by Zaphod58

 

i'm not running away from anything.
the air marshall comment was pages ago and in ONE post, no drift.

the BC however, has Ms Fuddy's assertions all over it, hence, it's relevant, whether you all like it or not.

neither the plane failure, the death or the assertions made by the deceased have anything to do with me other than discussion, why does that bother you?

that's just a typical response from those who are tired of repeating the same ole' lies.

Zaphod is crushing you. Run away. His credibility is established, especially when discussing the realities of flight.

There is "honor" in admitting when you are wrong when someone more knowledgeable than you on a particular subject.

I have flown in small aircraft from island to island in Hawaii and I still would defer to Zaphod on matters of air travel.

There is an entire industry based on the reality that accidents happen. I am willing to bet that more than a few people have an insurance policy or two.

reply to post by ikonoklast


It's just an FYI but details of the crash scene, condition of debris and how her final moments were spent before passing away aren't a mystery anymore. AP carried the story this morning, with first person quotes on the matter.

Last Moments Recounted Of Official Killed In Crash

I hope we don't get too wild about speculation, as the answers are coming and this was a tragic death. No big mysteries by the sound of it, while she sounds to have passed quietly, under the circumstances.

reply to post by Zaphod58

Carnahan's plane was in radio contact prior to the crash, so says the ATC report of the incident

link / NTSB report
According to the NTSB, the pilot of the accident aircraft reported to ATC a failure of his primary attitude indicator shortly before the crash.

as for the two of them, perhaps this link is one you should review
link 2

let's not forget about Congressman Boggs (RIP 1972), eh ?
or his wife that Clinton appointed as ambassador to the Holy See.
link 3

now, i don't quite understand why you would say a plane was in contact with the tower AND no radio call was made ... how does that work ?

reply to post by Leonidas

hahahahahaha, nah that's not enough ...
hehehehehehahahahahaha

defer all you want, it would seem that's the status quo anyhow.

ETA - your choice to defer certainly alludes to a reluctance to discover truth ... congrats.

oh yeah, almost forgot ... what is absurd is the perpetual dismissal of the direct contact with none other than her 'deputy director' who just happens to be a bio-chemical expert.

but y'all are right, nothing to see here, move along.

reply to post by Honor93


There was no radio call that they were in trouble prior to impact. A radio call of a potential problem, that may not have been real given the pilots record, isn't a "we're about to crash" call. You can be talking to the tower passing routine messages and never say a word that you have a problem until you're a fireball, which is exactly what happened.

reply to post by Zaphod58

while entirely possible, that is NOT what the report said.
didn't bother to read it, did ya?

reply to post by Honor93


Yes I read it, I also read the pilots previous record. But an artificial horizon problem, if it was even malfunctioning, isn't a "we're about to crash" malfunction. Especially considering there are two, separate from each other, and IIRC they were VFR at the time.

ikonoklast
I've tried to fill in some answers to questions I asked previously or to point out conflicting news reports...

Thank you for this. I appreciate the effort you must have put it into this. It seems to raise more questions than answers at this point, but it helps fill in some of the blanks at least.

I fully understand why people are so quick to assume the worst, but I sure don't like it. I hate that every time I hear about VIPs being killed or dying that I immediately have to wonder if it's more than what we're being told.... But at the same time, I know that stuff happens, and not everything is a diabolical plot by the forces of evil. So I wait, knowing that if there's funny business afoot, someone will come forward, and someone will post it here. That's why ATS is my go-to source

The conflicting reports about Ms. Fuddy are certainly odd. I can understand a little confusion, people seeing/reporting different versions according to their experience and perspective, but these discrepancies are difficult to reconcile. For example: Did she go down with the plane, as one report stated... or was she floating in the water the whole time? And Yamamoto... at what point did he leave Ms. Fuddy to swim to shore?

So many questions. So few answers. Time will tell. Maybe.

reply to post by ikonoklast

thanks for the list of contradictions, well done.
i do believe they have only just begun and will become increasingly confusing, so, thanks again.

reply to post by Zaphod58

I also read the pilots previous record

what exactly does that have to do with a hill of beans or this accident which claimed Ms Fuddy's life ?

are you suggesting 'catastrophic engine failure' wouldn't be enough reason to report it to the tower personnel ?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Thanks for the link. That AP story does provide some additional interesting info, especially from the rescuers, but I don't think it's completely accurate either. In the first paragraph, it says:

When Coast Guard rescuers flew to waters near the Hawaiian island of Molokai to the scene of a small plane crash, they found smoking flares from the Navy, nine people floating in yellow life vests and debris scattered across a half-mile of ocean waters with choppy waves about six feet high. The only thing missing — the single-engine plane itself.
SOURCE

That disagrees with all of the other reports (and even with a later statement in this same article) that one of the 9 people swam to shore, unless that person decided to swim away from the rescuers to swim a half mile to shore by himself through the 6 foot choppy waves the article also mentions. That would seem unlikely, foolish, and dangerous, but I suppose it is possible.

I just saw another news report and TV interview with the man who swam to shore, who is now identified as Phil Hollstein. This is the text they provided, but it's worth watching the video where Hollstein is recounting what happened:

One of the survivors in a plane crash off Molokai was determined to get everyone out and into their life vests, even swimming a half mile to shore to flag down help!

Phil Hollstein says he's absolutely thankful to be alive, hailing the pilot, Clyde Kawasaki, a hero.

"I'm guessing the air speed was at least 70 and we hit the water. It's like instant brakes," Hollstein said.

Hollstein says it all happened so fast. His Makani Kai Air flight had just departed Kalaupapa, bound for Honolulu when they heard it.

"Not sure how high. Maybe 300 to 500 feet. It wasn't too long after and we were climbing and then there was a bang. Not too loud, not too quiet, but there was a bang. Then everything quit," Hollstein said.

He says the pilot had only moments to react.

"He did everything by the numbers. He was handling the airplane and just the fact that we got it in there as clean as we did," Hollstein said.

The plane landed right side up. Everyone had their seat belts on and remained calm. Then it was a race against the clock to get everyone out.

"Nothing like the movies. No one was screaming or yelling, just trying to get out of there. And the way it was filling with water, it seemed the best course of action was to just get out of there," Hollstein said.

He says everyone did make it out ok and he helped people get into their life vests.

"There was one couple that had their vests. The guy had a seat cushion to his chest leaning back. He couldn't open it. I went and helped him open it, shoved it over his head, and fired the thing off," Hollstein said.

Hollstein last remembers seeing Health Director Loretta Fuddy with a life vest on. Then he took off swimming for shore.

He got cut up on the rocks, but made it, and flagged down a passing driver for help.

The pilot's son told KHON2 that his dad even gave his own life vest away to one of the passengers to make sure they would be safe.

Friends say Kawasaki suffered broken ribs and a concussion.

SOURCE

That seems to confirm that Fuddy was not trapped in the fuselage. It also indicates there were likely only 7 people in life vests in the water if the pilot gave his away and Hollstein swam to shore.

It does make it sound more like just a terrible accident though, although we don't know what caused the bang and the engine failure.

It also sounds like there wasn't much time from the moment of the bang & the engine failure before the plane was in the water.

reply to post by Zaphod58

Zaphod, you will never convince me that engine failure (especially on a single engine plane) wouldn't prompt an immediate "mayday" call to tower personnel.

you may convince some, however, we know better.

reply to post by Honor93


At the altitude they fly at he would have had about a minute or so, at best, to react before hitting the water. That includes trying to get the engine running again, get the passengers ready, keep the plane level and under control, find a landing area, prepare for ditching, and get on the radio. Guess what the lowest priority is.

reply to post by Honor93


Read the post above yours. There was no time. At 500 feet you have seconds, the last thing you worry about is getting on the radio.

reply to post by SirMike


Fascinating-

Seems to be more people that don't find it suspicious than do.

You know the Berkey has a fluoridation filter on it.

SirMike

Now, I aint saying I think she was murdered or that Obama isnt an American citizen and all that but should be some interesting fodder for discussion.

Eight pages later... Well played, Sir. Well played. But I gotta say, I feel for your mother. You must have been quite the handful growing up. Especially if you had brothers and/or sisters to torment! You certainly know how to push the right buttons to get a reaction.

reply to post by Honor93


Way to fight the good fight Honor!!! Let me put a target on my back too, and take a little heat off of you. It wasn't that long ago that I read that Sheriff Arpaio's Cold Case Posse released that they had identified the forger, a woman, and that her name was being withheld from the public to protect her. So I fully understand why it would raise red flags for you... it does for me too. My heart goes out to Ms. Fuddy's family and loved ones, but our sympathy cannot be an excuse to ignore criminal behavior.... neither can our suspicions be an excuse to unnecessarily torment her family. Oh what a tangled web...

I'm a long-time Birther... probably among the very first. Every election year, I like to see what the astrologers are saying about the candidates. To construct an accurate horoscope, the exact time and place of birth is a must. This was not available to astrologers as Obama's birth certificate had not (yet) been publicly released, probably because Obama's original birth certificate was sealed by the courts when he was adopted by his step-father. But even then, there was much discussion on whether he was born in Kenya or Hawaii. If I remember right, this was around Christmas 07/New Years 08.

I followed this debacle closely for a couple years, and less closely since then... but for me it keeps coming back to the fact that NO ONE should have access to Obama's original birth certificate without a court order. Not even Obama. I'm also pretty sure that at least two court-certified document examiners have claimed one or more of the birth certificates proffered are forgeries. And if I remember correctly, one of these document examiners was used by Obama's law firm. (Please correct me if I'm wrong!)

My best guess (Occam's razor) is that Obama was born in Hawaii, but used his "foreign" status to obtain student loans/grants as a foreign student. Fearing this would turn off too many voters, the Kenya birth was invented and spread far and wide to distract us, discredit anyone questions Obama's creds, and provide reason to dismiss all Birthers as racist nuts. I'm not sure how or if anyone could know or verify this, but with the NSA up in everyone's business, neither am I sure that anyone who does know is at liberty to say. Anyone and everyone is now subject to blackmail, gag orders, secret detention, and on and on. Under these circumstances, all bets are off.

With regard to the plane crash, I'm waiting. It seems to me that if Ms. Fuddy is the woman identified in court papers as the actual forger of the birth certificate, and if her name was withheld to protect her, then there is now no reason to hide her identity, and the plaintiffs can release her name to the public. But if that happens, my sympathy for her family just increased exponentially.