What will you say/do, if you are wrong about Jesus

actually i've been reading the posts on this board for well over a year, just recently joined up. why can't you try and respect christians. i'll openly admit that there are a host of bad christians, alot of bad muslims, a number of bad hindis, and so on. just because you harbor some kind of hostility toward christians, there's no need to stoop so low as to use that kind of language. i don't personally abide by any of the above theories, i have my own spiritual interpretation of life, but that doesn't mean i verbally degrade those who don't see eye to eye with me. grow up.

Yea, I can say I've been reading this forum for over 3 years.

If I wanted to I could really bash the Christian faith. Seeing that I once to was a Christian, it'll be really easy but I choose not to. This goes way back, further than 2 weeks.

lol, let me guess... you're still in highschool, right? once you get out in the real world, you're perspective (hopefully for you) will change. and i believe the only comment i made toward you on this topic was the way you were presenting your argument; with verbal trash.

Originally posted by LOBO
Why is it that Christians (Uber-Christians, anyway) feel that it is their job to force somebody into their belief system, or otherwise not have anything to do with them, and alternately look at the person as an evil creature, and sometimes gossip about them and their faults and screw-ups, without realizing their own?

One should note that few religions (if any, that I am aware of) other than various sects of Christianity try to bring in other followers, by "brainwashing" or otherwise - and some (as in my experience) literally drag someone to a church, trying to force them into their beliefs.

I would be a LOT happier and tolerant towards Christians if they would just accept that not everybody is going to accept what they believe, and trying to force somebody into something, in the way the government likes to do things, is what CAUSES rebellion.

If Christians accepted it when somebody said "I have my beliefs, you have yours" and leave it at that, I would be able to stand them. However, a Christian seems to do something like, "Okay, I agree that we have differing beliefs... but don't you feel terrible that Jesus did such-and-such, and that he died for your sins, and you don't believe in him!" or "You're going to hell" -- and in some fun cases, "any belief other than Christianity is the work of Satan!" -- cases like these don't really help to gain friends, or supporters or followers - other than those you apparently like fear.

Why do Christianty and the U.S. gummint sound so similar?

Hey, I didnt mean to offend you. I guess I hit a raw nerve in ya. I was trying to lift up someone who apparently ,from the way he was talking, had given up on about everything. Talking about Jesus ornot, this is still a beutiful place and while your in it, shoot, try to enjoy yourself and appriciate the things around you. Im not pushing my religion on you and never said your religion was wrong. I am very open to learn about any religion, it is just that I havent heard anything about any of the religions of people posting here, that would make me want to convert to it(thier religion). From the attitudes that I see, these religions dont seem to make very happy people.............................DONT TAKE THINGS SO PERSONAL, IT ISNT HEALTHY...................Believer

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Actually, hurting someone for hurting you is the right way, the only way. Show me a Christian who actually has turned the other cheek and I'll show you a billion dollars. And those who have didnt do it for Jesus, they did it because they were too pussy.

Right here is an example of an angry person with a better religion than mine.I didnt know this religion, whatever it is, would bring out this in a person.

believer, although i do not share the same belief system as you, i respect your right to believe in whatever supreme being you see fit. disrespect for anyone who adheres to a certain religious code in their heart is worthy of respect and a good person. anyone who would encroach on that is as hypocritical and unloving of the basic human freedoms.

Originally posted by goregrinder
believer, although i do not share the same belief system as you, i respect your right to believe in whatever supreme being you see fit. disrespect for anyone who adheres to a certain religious code in their heart is worthy of respect and a good person. anyone who would encroach on that is as hypocritical and unloving of the basic human freedoms.

Hey gore gringer, your right, I just dont know what to say to people who keep poking at "someone forcing" beliefs on them. I got carried away and posted before I thought about it, and for this I apolagize Ill. 67 and LOBO. I kinda just say, when I post things, (except the last post) what I think Jesus would want me to say, and if this bothers some of the people here at ATS, so be it. For I read there posts and never respond hatefully and I do try to understand thier religions. I respect them, guess I just dont understand them. Thanks for helping straightening me up some gore. Peace and may God bless you................................Believer

no prob believer, glad i could be of some help and that comment wasn't directed soley at you, but also at anyone else like ill and lobo. i was primarily angered by ills' comments, thats why i responded in that fashion. if you'd ever like to debate or talk about anything on religion (primarily because it fascinates me) feel free to contact me!

Well, not really about being wrong about jesus. God never said if you don't believe he is my son, you going to hell. Catholics do, protestants do, Methodists do, not god. Besides, no such thing as a christian. You have groups metioned above, but no christian. You ask a person what they are, they will say presbetatrian, not christian. Also, that a good point. You expect others to follow christianity when you can't even agree on how to follow it.

Also, the people of christianity aren't all that nice. Child molestors, con artists, brainwashers, extortionists, so forth. And that is only within past year. Over all? Wars, torture, trials always ending in a guilty sentance and death, spread of disease, and those just the direct ones. Not to metione the billions who died of disease that could have been healed, but medicine was witchcraft and people killed for it. Or died at age ten because a cut got infected and killed the person because disinfectants(herbal ones) witchcraft. Or women killed because they looked suspicious around an animal(this was death worthy for women, a man had to be caught with the animal). Not bathing, allowing filth and disease to spread easily.

Anyways, god probably exists, and god as in it, for if supreme being, not male or female, to powerful for that. All the religons out there just to make you conform and obey. If god exists he didn't say this religon right, you go to hell for not following it. Religons say this happened, but didn't.

Also, if god is all powerful, can it make a rock so heavy it couldn't lift it??????(from another post, sorry, I like it though)

I think Dire Straits said it best " Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong."

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Actually, hurting someone for hurting you is the right way, the only way. Show me a Christian who actually has turned the other cheek and I'll show you a billion dollars. And those who have didnt do it for Jesus, they did it because they were too pussy.

I think I have to agree with you on that one man. Take prison for instance. If someone has the misfortune of going, from what I understand if someone beats the cold blue "H"out of you, you had better go down fighting with all your might because they'll never leave you alone if you don't. I don't think turning the other cheek would work in prison. Some people will run over you as long as you let them. I've had to stop a few bullys in my day. It didn't happen by turning the other cheek. Sometimes it takes showing that other person exactly how it feels to be done the way they did you.


Do unto others as they do unto you, Is a lot more effective

Originally posted by TgSoe
I think I have to agree with you on that one man. Take prison for instance. If someone has the misfortune of going, from what I understand if someone beats the cold blue "H"out of you, you had better go down fighting with all your might because they'll never leave you alone if you don't. I don't think turning the other cheek would work in prison. Some people will run over you as long as you let them. I've had to stop a few bullys in my day. It didn't happen by turning the other cheek. Sometimes it takes showing that other person exactly how it feels to be done the way they did you.


Do unto others as they do unto you, Is a lot more effective

That's exactly where I'm coming from. Do unto others as they do unto you. Why should you turn the other cheek while your dying. Some people can actually hit real hard, and if hit hard enough in the temple you can actually die. It's all about protecting yourself.

I'm not trying to bash any religion. It's just common sense. If someone attacks you, you do whatever you can to protect yourself. That sounds like the right religion to me.

ok first watch the movie Stigmata and be in shock, than watch Dogma and laugh your ass off
after that then just sit there and think

Argueing over religion is like argueing over who has the better invisible friend

The "turn the other cheek" rule is, in my own opinion, not to be taken literally all of the time. To me, it means that there are almost always alternatives to fighting, and if you can avoid violence at all without being killed in the process, go for it. However, there will come a time when conflict is inevitable, especially if your life is at stake. Even then, only the amount of force necessary to gain an advantage over your opponent should be used, without causing serious injury or death, if possible.

Violence should be used as a last resort, instead of a primary use - and I believe that rule demonstrates such. Take an butt-kicking, and don't fight back - until you are sure that your life or another's is at stake.

Originally posted by LOBO
The "turn the other cheek" rule is, in my own opinion, not to be taken literally all of the time. To me, it means that there are almost always alternatives to fighting, and if you can avoid violence at all without being killed in the process, go for it. However, there will come a time when conflict is inevitable, especially if your life is at stake. Even then, only the amount of force necessary to gain an advantage over your opponent should be used, without causing serious injury or death, if possible.

Violence should be used as a last resort, instead of a primary use - and I believe that rule demonstrates such. Take an butt-kicking, and don't fight back - until you are sure that your life or another's is at stake.

So if your getting beat up by a group of people and those people are doing their best not to kill you, but just to hurt you and scar you you'll just let them beat you up and say this is for Jesus?

Originally posted by LOBO
The "turn the other cheek" rule is, in my own opinion, not to be taken literally all of the time. To me, it means that there are almost always alternatives to fighting, and if you can avoid violence at all without being killed in the process, go for it. However, there will come a time when conflict is inevitable, especially if your life is at stake.

Jesus knew ahead of time that he would be put on trial and killed.. not once during the entire ordeal did he fight back. Then, as he was on the cross dying, he asked God to forgive the people who had done this to him..

There's no 'not to be taken literally' about it. You follow the rule or you dont.

posted by illmatic
So if your getting beat up by a group of people and those people are doing their best not to kill you, but just to hurt you and scar you you'll just let them beat you up and say this is for Jesus?

Of course, this only applies if you're a Christian and I know you're not. Me neither.
But if you don't try to live your life as Jesus did, and follow his teachings then you haven't truly accepted him. "I never knew you" as the quote from the bible goes. Accepting a personal Saviour is not an excuse to sin - it's a serious and constant effort to live life as Jesus did. Why would a True Christian be afraid of death?? They're going to Heaven, right?



[Edited on 2-6-2003 by quango]

I agree with Gore. Helen, I hope you are not trying to change any hearts here............(pun)

I am a Newbie in this forum, but have been reading
(and listening) posts like these for over 35 years of ADULT life (Illi).
One can not brag at the end or slap God in the chin and stroll to the Pit LOL! There are those that are destined by their own lack of trying to end up there. If you here the message and reject it, God is not your enemy then. Besides that, the messenger is not your enemy either.

Man, there is some real anger here. Maybe we should look elsewhere for the source of it??

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by LOBO
The "turn the other cheek" rule is, in my own opinion, not to be taken literally all of the time. To me, it means that there are almost always alternatives to fighting, and if you can avoid violence at all without being killed in the process, go for it. However, there will come a time when conflict is inevitable, especially if your life is at stake. Even then, only the amount of force necessary to gain an advantage over your opponent should be used, without causing serious injury or death, if possible.

Violence should be used as a last resort, instead of a primary use - and I believe that rule demonstrates such. Take an butt-kicking, and don't fight back - until you are sure that your life or another's is at stake.

So if your getting beat up by a group of people and those people are doing their best not to kill you, but just to hurt you and scar you you'll just let them beat you up and say this is for Jesus?

I dont know how this post got so twisted around , anyway can you imagine if Jesus didnt turn the other cheek? Nobody says getting beat up is right but I,ll bet if one lived a christian life or a peaceful Islamic life, one wouldnt find himself in that "beat up" position................................Believer

By turning the other cheek, you stand your ground, asserting your dignity, and you will take another blow if necessary, but you will not accept the premise that his violence can be used to show you your place. Your non-violent response robs the evildoer of the power to humiliate you. It is as if you said to the Roman soldier, "try again if you will, for your first blow has failed to achieve its intended effect. I deny you your power to humiliate me. I am a human being just like you." Ghandi taught that the first principle of non-violence is that of non-cooperation with anything humiliating to the essential dignity of the human spirit.

Think of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said to his followers: if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well. Here Jesus spoke directly to the situation of many of the poor who flocked to hear him preach and teach. He speaks directly to the common experience of a poor person being hauled into court because of unpaid debts and mounting interest on the debts. You can recall that in 1st-century Israel, a debtor could be tossed into prison, his ancestral lands seized, his family sold into slavery to pay off debts. In Deuteronomy 13 there was a law written that would at least forestall the most degrading aspects of a debtor's situation. This law says that a debtor may be required during the day to turn over as collateral his outer garment to the one he owes money. But at the end of the day, the debtor can take back his outer garment in order to have enough clothes to keep warm during the night. This seems like a face-saving tradeoff. But Jesus advises his followers, if they take your coat, your outer garment, give them your inner garment too. In other words stand there naked, exposing by means of your own nakedness an unjust situation that strips the poor of their clothes. Bring shame, not on yourself, but on the debt collector and on everyone, that here is yet another poor man who is being stripped naked by the rich. Imagine the naked debtor leaving the court. His friends and neighbors, aghast, inquire what has happened. He explains. They join a growing procession, which now resembles a victory parade. The entire system by which debtors are oppressed has been publicly unmasked. Ghandi once used a similar tactic. When he was arrested during a civil disobedience campaign in 1930, a mass meeting was organized to congratulate the British colonial government for arresting this troublemaker. It was then extremely difficult for the British government to arrest a crowd of well-wishers.

Jesus also said to his followers: "if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles." Again Jesus was referring to an everyday situation experienced by many people of Israel. You are walking along the road and a Roman soldier says, "hey you". "Me?" "Yes you! Come here and pick this up", pointing to a 70-pound pack. The Roman soldier knew that Roman rules of conduct for occupation forces allowed soldiers to commandeer their subjects, making them their pack animals for one mile - and one mile only. Any more than that and a Roman soldier could be reported and turned in. Even Rome knew that in order to minimize resentment in conquered lands, some limits and consequences should be placed on the soldier's right of impressment. What does Jesus say to his followers who find themselves in this situation, but to go an extra mile? Dramatize the injustice of Roman occupation. Lead that Roman soldier right into the middle of an infraction of Roman military code. Jesus counsels those caught in this situation of Roman occupation, a situation that for the time being could not be changed, to nevertheless reassert their human dignity and to regain the initiative. The one who goes the extra mile carrying the gear of the Roman soldier does not know exactly what consequences the soldier will face for breaking military code, but neither does the soldier. The humor of this situation might escape us, but I am sure it was not lost on those who listened to Jesus as they imagined the soldier trying to take back his pack. A contemporary example might help us appreciate that humor, that a point of ridicule can be part of a non-violent response. The story is told of Bishop Desmond Tutu in South Africa, who was walking down a sidewalk that was the width of one person. A white man appeared at the other end, recognized Tutu and said, "I don't give way to gorillas." At which Tutu stepped aside and with a deep sweeping bow, said, "Ah yes, but I do." I am convinced that Jesus understood that such tactics could seldom be repeated in exactly the same way. One can imagine that within days the powers that be would have created new laws to contain these non-violent initiatives. And I am convinced that those who listened to Jesus and embraced his teaching on non-violence surely understood that one must be creative, improvising new tactics for new situations. Nothing could be deadlier to the spirit of Jesus' teaching on non-violence than to regard them legalistically as absolute unchanging principles applying to all situations. How utterly contrary to the spirit of non-violence would it be to counsel a woman being battered by her husband or a child being bullied at school to turn the other cheek. Nor does this mean that a nation that suffers a grievous terrorist attack has no right to defend itself. Ghandi said that when faced with a choice between violence and cowardice he would choose violence. But what Jesus and Ghandi enacted was a creative third way between the natural human instincts of fight or flight. It was a third way between submission, passivity and withdrawal on one side, and armed revolt, retaliation and revenge on the other. I have already made reference to Mahatma Ghandi and to Bishop Tutu, but throughout history and all over our world today - from Asia to Africa, from Latin America to North America, there are people of faith resisting evil with total commitment to the power and efficacy of non-violence. The third way of non-violence challenges us as followers of Jesus to find creative ways to seize the moral initiative, to assert our dignity as human beings to find a creative alternative to violence. The Gospel of non-violence challenges us to courageously stand our ground and take control of the power dynamic, breaking the vicious cycle of violence that only carry us further down the road to destruction and death.







[Edited on 6-2-03 by pacman]