A Question to the Scot's Here on ATS? ....

reply to post by DrunkYogi


The thing is these idiots and the message they are trying to force on people has absolutely zero to do with Scottish independence.
They are a disgrace to Celtic Football Club who have completely disassociated themselves from those responsible.

The sectarian divide in Scotland is something that needs to be addressed in Scotland regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

I could say so much more, and I suppose so could many others but this is not the place to do so.

Well to start I'm actually English but half my family are Scottish on my mothers side being from Glasgow, my Scotch grandad lives down here now but he thinks Scotland should remain in Britain / uk , personally how ever I think the Scottish people should give it a go, what have they/you have to lose. In the long run if things don't work out I'm sure a new unity could be formed. As the old saying goes you'll never know if you never try....and as for the people saying it will turn third world I'm not sure how to put this but hod'ya weesht...sorry if I got that wrong Scottish on here I think you know what I meant.

Scotland is the 4th richest nation on the earth but We don't get to see a penny of it, it goes to England and we get a pittance of it back. Scotland has enough oil left in the ground to make £55 billion a year (and that's at $80 dollars a barrel with $10 dollars estimated cost to us, so very conservative figures as oil is currently $110 a barrel...) for 55 billion a year we could move Scotland to Mars if we wanted... instead we are currently in recession, suffering austerity and cuts at the behest of an English government that we did not vote for. If you look at the results of every single British general election since 1955 and take the Scottish vote out of it, the result is the same... we have no democracy and keep getting stuck with a bastard Tory (conservative) government that we didn't vote for and Scotland has suffered this injustice for too long now. The first bit of real democracy that Scotland will have is our vote for freedom from England on the 18th of September next year and I pray to God that the people of Scotland remember who we are, were and can be and take the first steps to changing our country for the better by taking our country back from a monarch and nation who we never voted for or consented too. We never got to vote to join this union, nor do we get to vote for all the wars it's dragged us into but we are now fortunate enough to be getting to vote to escape it. Google a list of Scottish inventions and look at what WE have contributed to the world and try and find me another small nation that has contributed so much and made so little. I have great respect for the English people as they have been victims the same as we have but it is up to them to say enough to their tyrannical government and it is up to us to do that for ourselves also, we'll do it through divorcing them and they can do it however they like. No nation should own another..we (as britain) are the most unequal nation in Europe, in terms of the gap between rich and poor, a more socialistic approach to government is the only way we can fix this and England will never give us a socialist government or anything close to it... they are stuck with the neo-libertarian conservative party or the now up the Tories arse labour party, there is no longer a difference between the two... the English have milked Scotland for 300 years whilst calling us scroungers at the same time, now all of a suddenly they are having to admit that we are not scroungers and they want to hold onto us... because we make an unequal amount of this wee islands wealth... Britain is a tyrannical war machine and the rich keep getting richer whilst the poorest in society suffer because of it. We have a chance to CHANGE this. Independence is the first step. And independence has NOTHING to do with Alex salmond and the SNP, they are just one of the parties who want independence for Scotland. So do the greens, the socialists, a division of the labour party also. The SNP will deliver independence then we will vote for who we want to lead our new nation just a few months later. Google the radical independence campaign. I was at their conference on Saturday, it was nothing to do with any particular party and was the most inspiring political discussion that Scotland has seen in many years, change is on the way, hopefully we get enough people to be a part of it... any old Scots on here in doubt of independence asked yourself this, look around yourself now, is this the best we can do? do we not need change? how do we get change? by voting for the same parties again and again who have failed to deliver it? no, we get it by taking power into our own hands, a peaceful revolution, a YES vote next year in the referendum... thank you to anyone who takes the time to read my post.
Yours Scotland, Elijah23

reply to post by Elijah23


There is much about your post I could comment on, some things I'd have to agree with, some things I think you may have affair point on but I feel an alternative approach would be more beneficial and practical. And there's some parts I disagree with completely. But I feel I've said my piece for the time being.....apart from one thing;

... they are stuck with the neo-libertarian conservative party or the now up the Tories arse labour party, there is no longer a difference between the two...

You are indeed absolutely correct in your assessment of the Labour Party.....but it's worth mentioning that it's transformation from a working class, leftist leaning party to a paler blue imitation of the Tory's happened under the guidance and leadership of a Scotsman, a process that was continued by yet another Scotsman.

And some would argue that the cuts currently being enforced are as a direct result of the policies implemented by those two Scotsmen.

And the illegal war in Iraq came about as a direct result of a Scotsman deliberately lying to and mis-leading Parliament.

You seem to be implying that all of Scotland's ills are the fault of those damned English - that is both incredibly naïve and so obviously wrong.

reply to post by Freeborn


I don't think I blamed all of our ills on the English, just most of them and not the English people but their governments and central bank (even called the bank of England.. not Britain, yet it controls our economy...)

And I never said Scotland didn't have it's own bastards, We have Scottish Tories, Scottish Labour etc I said independence was the chance for the Scottish PEOPLE to take their country back, not our government... I'm not a fan of the SNP either... So I'm not advocating the Scottish government as better which is why I had put in my post that independence was nothing to do with the SNP and put emphasis on the People of Scotland, government aside; and the neo-libertarian transformation of the labour party happened under Tony Blair and his 'New Labour'. it was also his new labour that lead us into these wars and yes some Scots were involved. I am not for one minute implying that all 5 million Scots' are upright, moral characters.. no country can say that and I certainly didn't think that was the opinion I was giving, if we were all awake here then there would be no independence debate; as we'd all be for it.. and I said in the comment hopefully we can get enough people on-board with independence to make it happen. we have our ignorance and 'ignorants' the same as anyone else.. The Scots have done and invented many things, not ALL of them good; our inventions include Advertising and Capitalism, two things I'm not a fan of either but I don't feel guilty about them... nor do I blame anyone else for them, nor do they have anything to do with independence but everything in my previous comment did have. if you wuld like to debate the sins of the scottish I'd be happy to do so, if you would like to discuss the sins of the English I would be happy to do so also but that's not what the post was about, it was about our current situation, it's factors and how we can change it and that is obviously through political and economic change that WE can only administer if we have the powers.. independently. sorry if any offense was caused but it was caused perhaps through lack of clarity rather than intention. I had only put what I thought to be relevant to the question.and I did say I believe the English people have to stand up and say enough in their own way also.
Elijah23

reply to post by Elijah23




I would be interested in the source for your information that Scotland is the

4th richest nation on earth?


The most commonly accepted method of determining the wealth of a country is

by the GDP per capita and comparing generalised differences in living standards

between nations.

By that estimation the unanimous consensus for top 10 richest countries 2013 is

# 1) Qatar

# 2) Luxembourg

# 3) Singapore

# 4) Norway

# 5) Brunei

# 6) USA

# 7) UAE

# 8) Switzerland

# 9) Kuait

# 10) Australia.

The UK is 23rd ... so if they were getting all the 'wealth' of Scotland which in your

estimation they are, I think they would be much higher up the 'Rich List'??

reply to post by Elijah23



Alex Salmond is head of the Scottish National Party .... Do you honestly think

the Scots people will be 'free' when he full fills his ambition and is 'head' of the

Scottish Nation?

If as you say, you are not a fan of the SNP, just who do you think will be

heading an 'independent Scotland'??

This is Alex Salmond's pet project, his baby, and his 'power trip' I think

you are naïve to think anything will change after a yes vote. His policies

are being picked apart and already unravelling as to where the money for his policies

is coming from!!!

>>>> Sods law 'you can't take more out of the piggy bank than is in it!'

If the scots have got any sense they should leave the u.k,leave europe now. The future for england is a land of immigrant slaves. England is dead.

reply to post by eletheia


We're the 4th richest nation on earth if you country our oil wealth... which isn't counted just now as it's. in private hands and all the tax from it goes to Westminster. When we become independent and nationalize the oil in the process, we will take our rightful place as the 4th richest nation on the planet... these figures have been worked out and agreed upon by several independent economists from Scotland, to norway, to Catalonia and the figures I included in my first comment came from an economist who helped Norway set up their own oil fund... it now has 800 billion dollars in it for their 'rainy days alone... which is why Norway isn't in recession... the only one who is not showing these figures is the British side and for obvious reasons... Google the Mcrone oil report that they buried in the seventies so that we didn't become independent then... and oil prices have boomed since then.. the UK is 23rd yes and that's with us helping to prop them up a bit, we are the only country in the union that is not 'overspending' we pay 9.8 % of the UK's overall taxes each year and then get just 8.8% back to run the country from... and this is WITHOUT counting the oil.... wake up man. Why is Norway so wealthy? oil.. where do they get their oil? the north sea... where does Scotland get it's oil? The north sea... thus the name, north sea oil... we have the same oil opportunities as Norway the difference is that Norway controls it's oil and we don't... yet... and we have other markets on top of that such as our whiskey, which is our main export just now. again, NOT INCLUDING THE OIL OF WHICH WE SEE NOT A PENNY... yet...

reply to post by eletheia


Alex Salmond has hinted many times that he will step down after independence which may or may not be true (I personally doubt it) but it make no difference, to say independence is HIS baby is naive and to be honest, a bit ignorant... there's a whole team of thousands of people from MSP to simple activist to optimistic individuals like myself that have made independence possible, not one man... not Alex salmond fathering it as you would your baby... you could just as easily say it was Nicola Sturgeon's baby or Kenny Macaskill's or any other prominent SNP figure you know the name of... but it would be a gross over simplification and rather pointless... the SNP won elections in 2007 then got a landslide victory in 2011 despite the fact that the same polls that put yes at 38% and no at 49% currently were saying the SNP had even less support than a yes vote currently has... but it happened.. because the polls are bollocks.. unreliable propaganda, trying to influence people to stay as part of the majority, however small it may be, certain people, mainly the uneducated, feel comfort in voting with a herd and are influenced by these polls but they are obviously a minority or we wouldn't have had SNP victories, despite the odds, in the last two elections... a yes vote is not a vote for the SNP as we don't get full independence til 2016 and we have an election the same year so if there is a yes vote that gives the existing and new parties two full years to put their policies forward for an independent Scotland and we , the Scottish people will vote accordingly... personally I want a socio-democratic government made up of the socialist party and green party in equal representation... but that's just me and I'll have to wait and see who gets to lead us in an independent Scotland.. and I look forward to it in any case because at least it will be up to us... please see past Alex Salmond, the media wants this to be a personality race and it is not, it's about social and economic self determination... nothing less, nothing more...

reply treply to post by Elijah23


I had a nice big reply to your wall of text (god, I wish you used paragraphs!) but it went missing....

I shall type a summary of my reply to you instead...

1. Scotland is not the 4th richest, not by a long shot. Including North Sea Oil, your GDP is $240 Billion, which places you around the 40th position mark in the world, down there with Greece!
   
2. The UK GDP is around $2.4 Trillion, so Scotland is 10% of the UK's total GDP for around 10% of the Population - so it isn't even uneven like you claimed. Minus North Sea revenue, it's even less. A UK economy minus Scotland would still be $2.2 Trillion.
   
3. Not all the North Sea Fields are actually within what would be Scottish waters - a sizeable chunk are actually off the coast of Northern England.
   
4. North Sea Revenue is only around £8-9 Billion - where are you pulling this fantasy figure of £55 billion from? It has never been anywhere near that - ever!
   
5. You moan about a lack of Democracy etc, but 17% of Scotland voted for the Tories in 2010 - only 2% behind the SNP! And for the previous 13 years, we had a Labour party in power with 39 Scottish MP's and TWO Scottish PM's!! In fact, we had tuition fee's forced upon us simply because Labour forced it through with the votes from their Scottish MP's! How about that for Democracy?
   
6. Freedom? Weren't asked about the Union? Neither were we! You bankrupted your nation trying to establish a colony in Panama and, with the help of the Scots King on the throne of England, forced this marriage upon us! In fact, you did very well out of being in the Union and if you weren't, it is highly debatable whether Scotland would have had any impact on the world at all without access to the Markets being in the Union allowed.
   

And the Scots wonder why us England get so funny about this debate - we're painted as villians and robbers, all the while you're fed fantasy Braveheart BS which you swallow hook, line and sinker.

Elijah23
We're the 4th richest nation on earth if you country our oil wealth... which isn't counted just now as it's. in private hands and all the tax from it goes to Westminster.

Scotland generates some £56 Billion in tax revenue (including NS Oil) for the Treasury, yet consumes £64 Billion in Spending. Per capita spending is actually £1500 higher in Scotland than in England.

Where are you pulling these fantasy figures from? I am sourcing from HM Treasury and the Scottish Government, so I can only guess you're making these numbers up because not even Salmond or his pet Hag have ever claimed such ridiculous nonsense such as you are doing.

DrunkYogi

Soloprotocol
I was wondering when this would turn into a Irish/Catholic/Protestant train wreck...it only took to page 8 or so....leave it out please.

Here are two banners that where flown at the Celtic game last night. Now you can hopefully see where i am coming from. There is a definite underlying religious issue to do with the SNP independence issue.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk...

I know exactly were you are coming from...... you are a Unionist/Loyalist.

The figures that you are quoting on the oil, this 8 or 9 billion is based on it being in private hands as it is currently... I said Nationalized oil is what my figures were based on, so 100% of the profit not 30% through tax with costs reducing that to between 12 and 18% percent in profit... please read the facts in my post before attacking them...

and no offense but the history of England is a history of war and forced colonization long before we became part of the union. We were bought for 20k into joining the union or rather a few corrupt Scottish lords were paid 20 grand to join the union and you've made more than that back from us so I'd say we'two more than even...

and oil revenues isn't included in Scotland's figures for taxation oilonly refinement is... we have several refineries refining our own oil, which we pay tax on but the oil is not included in taxation for Scotland.. again check your facts... we found our oil at the same time as Norway and even the Norwegian government (who know a thing or two about oil...) have said they estimate us to have the same size oil field in Scottish waters...

and Scotland was nearly bankrupt in the in the darian project or Panamian project if you prefer, because the king refused to send any help or supply ships because of a deal his court had struck with the Spanish... the Spanish agreed to back England in it's war against France in exchange for the king refusing any support to the Scottish project in Panama as
Spain was colonizing southern America at the time...


and he was not the king of England he was the king of Scotland, England and Ireland so that is an ignorant statement also... King James the 6th of Scotland became king James the 2nd kg England through right to ascension and that's what had merged the crowns and created the united kingdom... the whole notion of it being just the throne of England is more modern but yes it did start with the Hanoverian succession where you toppled our king in typical colonial fashion before bankrupting us by leaving the Scots to die in Panama, to suck up to the Spaniards who were already sinking Scottish ships trying to get to the aid of the Scots stranded in Panama... so check your history then look at your own corrupt nations history... stranded

and do you believe for one minute we still owe you for this debt? if the Scots have been such a problem, and cost the English so much money, and the Tories are all about saving money and making cuts then why are they so desperate to hold onto us? why aren't they encouraging independence? why aren't they driving vans around saying "go home Scots " or "F off scroungers" like they are doing to immigrants... because it's all bollocks...

stumason

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong

 

are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...

And that is why there are so many English with opinions - not because we wish to deny the Scots a choice, but to make sure they get the truth.

Yes because without the English Scots wouldn't know truth. I bet you dig that, we are your only salvation crap.

After you talk like this i'm just waiting for you to come blazing in high regarded posture and complete gentlemen talk, soliciting tax dollars and money for the king.

reply to post by Elijah23


Again, you lucked out when my post was lost in transit...

So, you're basing your fantasy on the completely unrealistic proposition that you nationalise the Oil fields. Who's going to pay for that? Have you any idea how much it would cost you to buy those fields back of Shell, BP and Centrica? Not to mention you then have to take on the pension liabilities of all the workers, their salaries, the infrastructure costs etc which places and even bigger burden on the State. There is a reason it is left to private firms - to carry the risk!

Now, let's assume for one minute that Scotland, somehow, finds the hundreds of billions needed to buy those fields back. £55 billion a year would only make your GDP slightly north of £300 Billion, placing you in the low 30's on the Global GDP league table - down with the likes of Malaysia and Singapore.

And all this assumes the price of Oil is going to remain high or even go up when in all fairness, it is actually likely to go down as alternative fuels are sourced and far larger fields come on stream in Canada, America and Australia to name but a few. Basing your entire economy on a single, volatile commodity is foolhardy, at best and wasting hundreds of billions of taxpayers money to bring it entirely under state control for a few dozen billion a year is just economic madness.

reply to post by TechniXcality


Have you come back with any kind of factual rebuttal against what any of us have said in this thread?

No, you haven't. Salmond does the same thing - lies through his teeth about some fantasy he's had and when challenged on it, simply repeats the assertion and scuttles off into the sunset...

By all means, vote for independence but if you do so, then you need the facts, not SNP fantasy BS.

stumason
reply to post by TechniXcality

 

Have you come back with any kind of factual rebuttal against what any of us have said in this thread?

No, you haven't. Salmond does the same thing - lies through his teeth about some fantasy he's had and when challenged on it, simply repeats the assertion and scuttles off into the sunset...

By all means, vote for independence but if you do so, then you need the facts, not SNP fantasy BS.

im a freaking Irish yank. I care as much to put two cents or maybe .6 of a British lb if converted correctly. But honestly ive been playing devils advocate, troll if you will. But i really gotta tell you, you English are pushing hard against any such fracture and i gotta say typically the one who pushes is wrong or has something loose. Sorry looks like Scots gotta lot to gain from the fracture, sounds like your sorry and bruised up a bit. Stand up take some pride, is your 2cent gonna change a damn thing vote yes or no? No it is not!

Eletheia, I really don't think you have a grasp on Scottish politics at all. There will be an election 2 months after Scotland becomes independent (May 2016).

Alex Salmond is most certainly on a power trip, I think he's a greasy idiot who could easily lose us our chance of independence. But to assume this is his 'baby' is so wrong, and so demeaning to a whole nation. We're not being forced into this by some madman at the helm. A lot of us want it, and the referendum is a chance to ask SCOTLAND what it wants. If we included the whole of the UK, when a 'no' vote came back, people could then blame England and we would be back to square one.

Before we can even think properly about how this nation can develop, Scots need to decide what is best for their futures.
Why are you so against this?

reply to post by TechniXcality


An Irish Yank...Hmmm, your opinion isn't coloured by anything then... It was your lot sending money to the IRA in spades to kill us.

As for the vote - we have nothing to lose. The RUK will be perfectly fine, if not better off. I have Scottish relatives myself and the only thing I am interested in this Scotland making a decision based on facts, not sentiment or emotional blackmail, which is what the SNP are peddling with a healthy dose of fantasy.