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A Question to the Scot's Here on ATS? ....

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posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 04:59 AM
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gortex
reply to post by eletheia
 


I'm English but also British , united we stand divided we fall .
I don't think Scotland will vote for independence and I hope they see through the untruths that Alex Salmond has been feeding them because if they do go they'll have many problems to face .

I love Scotland and it's people but like the rest of us they're ruled by idiots



This is pretty much what my father said about it. He said "The Scottish are not stupid, they wont vote for this, probably just so they get to keep the pound or more importantly avoid the euro"


edit on 28-11-2013 by Biigs because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 05:15 AM
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Soloprotocol

DrunkYogi

Soloprotocol
I was wondering when this would turn into a Irish/Catholic/Protestant train wreck...it only took to page 8 or so....leave it out please.


Here are two banners that where flown at the Celtic game last night. Now you can hopefully see where i am coming from. There is a definite underlying religious issue to do with the SNP independence issue.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk...

I know exactly were you are coming from...... you are a Unionist/Loyalist.



Wrong again mate! I can't stand Royalty. I just open my eyes and look at the situation from a neutral stand point. If you do that then it's easier to see the Garbage that are the SNP. You wont find me tainted with the sectarian brush mate but i see where your coming from, it's easy to taint somebody and dismiss their argument.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 05:20 AM
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reply to post by DrunkYogi
 


In Solo's defence, he didn't say you were a Royalist. Being a pro-Union or "loyalist" doesn't mean you have to love the Queen.

Of course, as a loyal subject, you should love her, but that's by the by



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 05:20 AM
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Double post...Having real issues this morning...
edit on 28/11/13 by stumason because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 05:43 AM
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DrunkYogi

Soloprotocol

DrunkYogi

Soloprotocol
I was wondering when this would turn into a Irish/Catholic/Protestant train wreck...it only took to page 8 or so....leave it out please.


Here are two banners that where flown at the Celtic game last night. Now you can hopefully see where i am coming from. There is a definite underlying religious issue to do with the SNP independence issue.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk...

I know exactly were you are coming from...... you are a Unionist/Loyalist.



Wrong again mate! I can't stand Royalty. I just open my eyes and look at the situation from a neutral stand point. If you do that then it's easier to see the Garbage that are the SNP. You wont find me tainted with the sectarian brush mate but i see where your coming from, it's easy to taint somebody and dismiss their argument.

Well your eyes were firmly closed when you posted this piece of Garbage about Alex Salmond being suspended from the party for his.."alleged" Association with Sien Fein... Seee Below.


DrunkYogi

Soloprotocol

DrunkYogi

Soloprotocol

DrunkYogi
Most of my fellow Scot's get on great with English people. I always has a great time when i went there. We are better together, we don't need that twat Salmond stirring up the sh*t. His vote is gonna get it's ass kicked.

Typical Unionist claptrap. It's not Alex's Vote...it's the people of Scotland's Vote for Independence, not a vote for Alex Salmond....some people just dont get that.
edit on 26-11-2013 by Soloprotocol because: (no reason given)



Well the people where happy enough to be part of the Union before this buffoon came along. Just about all of the problems Salmond talks about us poor Scot's suffering is also happening to English and Welsh people. The guy's a fool.

The SNP was founded in the 1930's...it's Not Alex's baby you know.


I know it's not his Sprog. He got suspended by the party for the 79 group's association with Sien fein. They hide their real beliefs behind the Saltire.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 05:55 AM
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Those oil figures are so wrong, and in 2012 there was a massive 17% fall so much so that the non-partisan Office of Budget Responsibility said the UK would bring in £11.1bn in the 2012 financial year when earlier in the year the OBR was telling the government to expect £13.4bn. This was due to the un-predicted speed of the drop

The old fields depleting very fast and the new projects tend to be smaller but more expensive. A new independent country would never be able to nationalise such a thing.

More worryingly who will pay for the old field platforms to be dismantled if the oil companies argue that their legal inheritance to keep producing on old terms agreed with the UK government has been changed?
edit on 28-11-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 06:16 AM
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Just as a side note to the oil discussion - even if Scotland went it alone, the remaining UK would remain a gigantic shareholder in Scottish oil on the basis that British money is hugely significantly invested in it.

That doesn't stop being the case just because Scotland votes for independence.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 06:19 AM
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stumason
reply to post by TechniXcality
 


An Irish Yank...Hmmm, your opinion isn't coloured by anything then... It was your lot sending money to the IRA in spades to kill us.

As for the vote - we have nothing to lose. The RUK will be perfectly fine, if not better off. I have Scottish relatives myself and the only thing I am interested in this Scotland making a decision based on facts, not sentiment or emotional blackmail, which is what the SNP are peddling with a healthy dose of fantasy.


Why is it that people seem to think that those who want to vote 'yes' are somehow seeing independence through rose tinted glasses and riding on Salmonds coat tails?

From what I can see, especially those who are recognising Salmond is just a 'mouthpiece' and a bad one at that, who could very well end up scuppering any chance Scotland has for independence, are Scots who are actually thinking for themselves.

To paint all 'yes' voters with one brush stroke as some sort of romantic fools crying 'freedom' is very derogatory, demeaning and insulting.

Some people just have a passion in their hearts, others just want to stand up and be counted as individuals, others are bold and courageous enough to want to take a chance on taking responsibility for their country's affairs. Sometimes just a gut instinct IS the right thing to do and breaks the set.

In my experience, people who follow their guts and hearts desire to do something they feel is positive, have always been people who have made a positive difference and brought about changes to societies if it is what is meant to be. But by the same token these sort of people are also magnanimous enough to hold up their hands and admit if their gut and dreams were wrong ....no matter which country they are from.

Some people just don't look at history and over their shoulders to determine the next step. Some people just aren't eloquent to put their feelings into words.

As Einstein said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Given the state of the world as a whole, not just the British Isles....Einstein was and is right....it's about time everyone, everywhere took back responsibility for their own individual lives and tell TPTB to shove their old, out dated, modus operandi where the sun don't shine. Some ideas will work, some will fail, but at least people will be using their own imaginations, freedom of choice, and reclaim their sanity.

Rainbows
Jane



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 06:23 AM
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reply to post by angelchemuel
 


I'll just wade through the testosterone and buy you a virtual pint.

Cheers!



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


You're a very angry little fella about an issue that really has nothing to do with you... join are mistakening nationalization for a buy out... you don't buy you're own oil fields back, they don't own anything in the north sea, they get contracts to pull the oil out the ground, we just don't renewal their contract in 2015 then send our own workers, a nationalised company...

the rig was the cost of them doing business there, you can't really move it... of would cost them more than it's worth... and even if they did want money for the rig, hundreds of billions? I think not, you have to check your facts mate, the company doesn't own the oil field... it is owned by Scotland, controlled by Britain as a Scottish asset and contracted out to the private sector... they own nothing... and most of the workers on the rig aren't Scottish anyway and they work for the oil company, so the oil company can put them where it wants when we don't renew their contracts, that's nothing to do with us... and I'm sure we could afford their pensions in how ever many years if need be...

your arguments are nonsense, Aberdeen is the oil capital of Europe yet is full of poverty... so Aberdeen would benefit from the oil of it's shore and provide most of the workers through local contracts.. we've got oil workers away out in the middle east because they can't get jobs on the local rigs... so there's no skill shortage in the area, just a job shortage as the oil companies hire cheaper foreign workers, taking more money out of Scottish hands.. but you need to calm down, you take this independence debate too seriously for a man who is foreign to Scotland and has no vote either way....



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 06:35 AM
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reply to post by angelchemuel
 


Not entirely sure where in that post or any other I have said all Yes voters are looking through rose tinted specs or some romanticised version of something.

I did state, however, that there is a lot of BS being spouted by some in the Yes campaign and that is all I am trying to correct - the decision, as always, is down to the Scots themselves but I want them (and they should want this too) to do so based on actual facts, not the SNP vision of a land of plenty being downtrodden by dastardly English.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 06:50 AM
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reply to post by Elijah23
 


Angry? Nope, not me - Not sure where you're getting that from. It's a bit of a straw man, actually - attack the person, not the content...

So, you genuinely think that simply by cancelling contracts with the big Oil companies, they'd just hand over all the infrastructure, personnel and future earnings without complaint?

I never knew it was that simple! It's not as if that's every caused any problems for other countries who've done this.....It'll be dragged through the courts, at the very least and an independent Scotland would have to pay considerable sums to any affected parties as a result.

It would also, funnily enough, be in danger of flouting EU rules which would only be a hammer blow to any Scottish wishes to automatically join the EU, just adding to the already staunch stance by EU members.

You have failed to explain, in detail, how such a proposition could be paid for and have taken no consideration as to the fallout of such an endeavour. In fact, all you've apparently done is read an article in the Herald and parroted it.

And, I will re-iterate this, the assumption all North Sea oil & Gas would defer to Scotland's control is laughable.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 06:58 AM
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I love the Scottish people who I've spoken to, who think that independence means an escape from the UK national debt, when the government has stated that an independent Scotland, would take with it, its portion of the national debt.

All they are trying to decide is how it will be apportioned. The most likely method is a ratio based on population. Based on a population ratio, an independent Scotland would take on a £182Billion portion of the UK national debt. Of course, there are other methods of determining an independent Scotland's portion of the national debt, as I said, they are still trying to decide which would be most appropriate.

But all said and done, an independent Scotland would not be walking off debt free, after all, you helped spend it.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 07:27 AM
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KingIcarus
Just as a side note to the oil discussion - even if Scotland went it alone, the remaining UK would remain a gigantic shareholder in Scottish oil on the basis that British money is hugely significantly invested in it.

That doesn't stop being the case just because Scotland votes for independence.



I thought the same, they are private companies though but you would assume they got funding, grants, tax relief or some sort of incentives.

I struggled to find anything official though, you have any figures? Slightly worrying, probably means they got lots incentives but its being hidden.
edit on 28-11-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 07:45 AM
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reply to post by Elijah23
 



You said>>>" independence was the chance for the Scottish PEOPLE to take their

country back, not the government"?


Well the government is the representative of the PEOPLE voted in

by the majority. So any majority is always going to leave at least 49% of the

population dissatisfied. However we shall just have to wait and see .....


I have stated previously "that was then and now is now" - where we stand now is

is the result of our histories so it is counter productive to keep bringing up

'who sold who out' and which branch of long ago Royalty was a 'pretender' a 'usurper'

or 'whatever' (time and distance lend enchantment - and fables are born)

All that is irrelevant now....We have to play the hand we have been dealt!



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 07:59 AM
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Elijah23
reply to post by stumason
 


You're a very angry little fella about an issue that really has nothing to do with you... join are mistakening nationalization for a buy out... you don't buy you're own oil fields back, they don't own anything in the north sea, they get contracts to pull the oil out the ground, we just don't renewal their contract in 2015 then send our own workers, a nationalised company...

the rig was the cost of them doing business there, you can't really move it... of would cost them more than it's worth... and even if they did want money for the rig, hundreds of billions? I think not, you have to check your facts mate, the company doesn't own the oil field... it is owned by Scotland, controlled by Britain as a Scottish asset and contracted out to the private sector... they own nothing... and most of the workers on the rig aren't Scottish anyway and they work for the oil company, so the oil company can put them where it wants when we don't renew their contracts, that's nothing to do with us... and I'm sure we could afford their pensions in how ever many years if need be...


Its incredibly expensive to just start from scratch, as said its getting increasingly more expensive for smaller rigs and smaller returns, it would take years to get running.

The Semi-submersible platforms can be moved from place to place and the ones that cant get dismantled all the time. A few years ago there were 260 platforms to be dismantled in the north sea alone. Couple that with the fact numerous fields are failing to produce as expected.

Latest rigs that have been built in the north sea cost upwards of £400 million and that's for just 1, they are also obviously incredibly expensive to run and that's without factoring in all the new R&D to access the supply.

There's a reason the industry is dominated by age old, developed companies.

If you were to suddenly end your contract what they might do is rent them to you at great expense. But that ain't going to happen, you know how corrupt the whole area is, as if they would allow it to become nationalised.
edit on 28-11-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 08:01 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


I've never read the herald in my life, I can promise you... I'm a campaigner for independence and I belong to no particular party.. and no you can't cancel contracts but the contracts run out in 2015... we never gave them life long contracts... we renew them or change contractor every few years, Contracts go to tenure and the best proposition wins..

the best proposition for the Scottish people would be a national business getting the contract and there are several parties in Scotland willing to make that case after independence... you should look into RIC or the radical independence campaign, or the green party of Scotland, or the Jimmy Reid foundation, or the common weal project or many other politically affiliated and non affiliated groups who are calling for the same thing... I've tried to answer you point for point and I'm not attacking the person, I'm saying that you're tone is quite aggressive for someone who has no vested interest in the debate... I enjoy having this debate with anyone, but from your language I would suggest you're taking it too seriously and instead of pointing the finger at lies from the yes camp, if you can care about Scots getting a fair view of the facts as you say why not point out the bs in the no camp also?

and why don't you look into all the things that the English crown used to put American off of independence in 1776, they'll seem amusement because they are using the same arguments against us just now.. and look how America done, wealth wise.. not politically... it enjoyed a long time of freedom before their current tyrannical system but certainly were better off without attachment to England...



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 08:24 AM
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Salmond again denies what EVERYONE within the EU is saying and accuses the Spanish PM of 'scaremongering'.
The truth is Scotland will not get automatic entry into the EU and will have to go through the same application process that all new members have to which can take up to 8 years.

www.bbc.co.uk...
www.bbc.co.uk...

Why does Salmond insist upon stating that he and the SNP alone are right and everyone else is wrong?
Why does Salmond believe that Scotland will be given it's way on everything if or when it votes for independence?
Everything comes at a price.

If Scotland believes that The Union has resulted in nothing but the English exploiting and using Scotland I dread to think what it will think once Von Rompuy, Barroso et al are finished with their meddling and interfering.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 08:32 AM
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stumason
reply to post by DrunkYogi
 


In Solo's defence, he didn't say you were a Royalist. Being a pro-Union or "loyalist" doesn't mean you have to love the Queen.

Of course, as a loyal subject, you should love her, but that's by the by


Yes, but you know what he was implying Stu.



posted on Nov, 28 2013 @ 08:34 AM
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Freeborn
Salmond again denies what EVERYONE within the EU is saying and accuses the Spanish PM of 'scaremongering'.
The truth is Scotland will not get automatic entry into the EU and will have to go through the same application process that all new members have to which can take up to 8 years.

www.bbc.co.uk...
www.bbc.co.uk...

Why does Salmond insist upon stating that he and the SNP alone are right and everyone else is wrong?
Why does Salmond believe that Scotland will be given it's way on everything if or when it votes for independence?
Everything comes at a price.

If Scotland believes that The Union has resulted in nothing but the English exploiting and using Scotland I dread to think what it will think once Von Rompuy, Barroso et al are finished with their meddling and interfering.


Not to mention together we have the political clout to tell Europe where to stuff it on some issues... would and independent Scotland?



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