The Old Testament God is a Bumbling, Primitive, Idiot?

reply to post by windword and everybody else

Dear windword and others,

I'm writing this to everyone because it seems to me that windword's comments have shown me a problem I think we're all struggling with.

You know, windword, you bring up a good idea that I hadn't seen before. A lot of the objection to the God depicted in the Old Testament seems to be that His punishment is disproportionate. I think, but I'm not sure, that people have become resigned to accepting that the Mosaic laws had some purpose, but there was too much killing and chopping as a result of violations.

What does this mean, beyond that people of the refined 21st Century see the proper punishment for offenses differently than the people of six centuries before Christ? I may be corrected here, but I didn't think "prison" was a concept available to the people of those times and, even it it was, it wouldn't work for nomadic people moving from tent village to tent village. Poverty was such, I suppose, that fines weren't always useful. Besides, I've seen even on ATS the idea that we should shorten prison sentences that only make worse criminals, and replace some sentences with a system of flogging. Castration, chemical or otherwise, is also an idea that seems to be gaining popularity. Both inflict punishment on the offender's body.

Given all that, I'm not as willing to see the laws for the Israelites as insanely harsh. But what about the commands to destroy the six nations God had given to the Israelites?

Well, I didn't mean ALL sinners, LOL, just the ones that God sent the Israelites to kill. If these people were so terrible, killing babies and all, God could have made a generation barren, and that would be the end of them. Easy Peasy!

Of course windword is right, barrenness would have done it. Or God could have snapped a finger and have them all painlessly and instantly disappear, or He could have left them out of creation all together, or God could have made a perfect world with perfect people living perfect lives.

Dear windword, there is so much I don't know. Is it really fair to ask me to explain the Mind of God? Maybe, God knew what we know, that what one gets for free isn't valued. The land had to be paid for, a price extracted, to ensure that the Israelites saw it as their land. Given by God, yes, but paid for in war. I suspect that God's thinking was much better than that, but here on earth we may never know.

I appreciate your use of the phrase "God of Love." But please don't forget that He is also a "God of Justice," and a "God of Holiness."

You said that you would do anything to have a conversation about religion with normal people. I'm not sure you got your wish, but I feel I'm, for the most part, in good company here.

THIS IS FOR EVERYONE: I really did. The people posting in this thread have been thoughtful, polite, and constructive. I can't tell you how grateful I am. I know I've said it before, but Wow! You and the others are the best ATS has to offer.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Jesus explained the permission to divorce, which God did not really want, as a temporary concession to their "hardness of heart".
Perhaps that would also explain the over-exuberant use of the death-penalty, and a lot of other things (like slavery and animal sacrifice).
It was only what everybody else in the ancient world did, and the time was not ripe to move them on from that.

reply to post by lazernation

lazernation
Yossarian says it best: Catch 22

"And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways," Yossarian continued, hurtling on over her objection. "There's nothing so mysterious about it. He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else, He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about - a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a supreme being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when he robbed old people of their power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?"

"Pain?" Lieutenant Schiesskopf's wife pounced upon the word victoriously. "Pain is a useful symptom. Pain is a warning to us about bodily dangers."

"And who created the dangers?" Yossarian demanded, He laughed caustically. "Oh, He was really being charitable to us when He gave us pain! Why couldn't He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person's forehead? Any jukebox manufacturer worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn't He?"

"People would certainly look silly walking around with red neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads."

"They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupified with morphine, don't they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power he had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It's obvious. He never met a payroll. Why, no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him as even a shipping clerk!"

"You'd better not talk that way about Him, honey," she warned him reprovingly in a low and hostile voice. "He might punish you."

"Isn't He punishing me enough?" Yossarian snorted resentfully. "You know, we mustn't let him get away with it. Oh no, we certainly musn't let Him get away scot-free for all the sorrow He's caused us. Someday I'm going to make Him pay. I know when. On the Judgement Day. Yes, that's the day I'll be close enough to reach out and grab that little yokel by His neck and -"

Bumbling, primitive idiot works well too.

That's a delicious piece you've shared there. I may have to check that book out.

Beautiful blasphemy. I can almost hear the indignant outcries already...they sound something like this:

The God of the Old Testament is at least more interesting than the God of the New. It makes for a better read.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

They cause no harm... Which is not to say that something like a tiger which kills its prey is "evil"... They are only acting according to their own nature... Even man acting by his/her own nature is programed to kill... but we can choose to rise above such actions.

Fascinating. This is off-topic, but you have just shown that Man is unique in all the world. He is the only being who can be innocent or guilty, and can be innocent only if he replaces his instinctual behavior with some "Higher Law." Be careful, at this rate it won't be long until you're attending Mass with me. May I buy you your first Rosary? (You can't tell, because I've only got these crummy smileys to work with, but I'm chuckling.)

I'm saying "Sir" to anybody who can create a Universe.

Fair enough... but who is to say the OT God was the "creator" of the universe?

In fact... recently I've come to think that the OT God was quite possibly an alien being using technology to fool the primitive folk... The so called "burning bush" could have been a hologram. I mean, fire that doesn't burn?

What sort of so called "God" needs fire and smoke, thunder and lightning to land on top of a mountain?

Kinda sounds like a "craft" with rockets to me honestly...

Others have mentioned that we might all be products of genetic engineering done by aliens, or an alien-ape hybrid, or something to do with aliens. Does that solve the problem? No, that position either explains nothing, or admits the existence of God. The questions now are, how were the aliens created, how was the Universe created?

If the Universe was created by the aliens, and they always existed, you're getting awfully close to the definition of God. If it wasn't created by the aliens and they came into existence at some point, then we have the same discussion we have now, except we replace the word "Man" with the word "alien."

Seems to me he broke and changed the laws of Moses... Which is why so many people wanted him dead...

Boy, Akragon, I don't know. That doesn't seem to be what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I can only come to the conclusion that Jesus is saying the law and the prophets are perfectly good and binding until they are completely fulfilled. Where does that leave us? The Old Testament was correct and supported by Jesus, at least in it's laws and prophets, and as He fulfilled the Law, he must be the one prophesied, the Messiah, or Savior of the world. (I know it looks like I skipped a logical step there, but I've only got so much time and you can fill it in yourself.)

Concerning Adam and Eve, I think you're taking me as more of a literalist than I am. Remember that I'm pretty flexible here:

Adam and Eve were apparently the first "humans" with souls. Whether they were made individually, or a pair reached humanity and God intervened, or whatever, I don't know. Certainly, only they, God, and the Deceiver were present. Remember Dan Rather? I think he was the one who said "The facts were incorrect, but the story was true."

Scientists are informing us that early humans may have cross-bred with late, whatever the scientific name for slightly pre-human is. I'm sure there was enough genetic variety to go around. I still insist that Adam and Eve were two (or maybe more, could the name be collective?) people with souls who God had set aside for a special life. They served as "representatives" of a sort for all mankind. They chose wrongly and the entire human race became infected with the results of their bad decision.

Talking snake? So you don't believe in telepathy?

LOL... I suppose the talking donkey was a telepath as well?

I'm glad you laughed. If we don't get some fun from this, what's the use? Isn't it easier to believe in a talking snake and donkey than a talking bush? Especially if the bush is on fire? If it were me, I'd be talking too, but I'd be saying "Help! Put me out! Ouch! That's hot!" But seriously, if one doesn't accept even the possibility of miracles, there's no sense discussing Christianity. Christianity doesn't exist without miracles.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by SaturnFX

Dear SaturnFX,

Thanks for stopping by, I had forgotten what an original thinker and thorough writer you are. I appreciate your adding to the thread.

You've put a lot into one post. I'm going to try something a little risky, that is, summarizing your ideas. That's only because i want to get a better handle on the whole picture. Please correct me where I go wrong, then I'll take a shot at discussing it.

Jesus could have seen His pain and death as no sacrifice because either He knew how to disregard the pain, or he found some pleasure in it. Besides boxers put up with pain for just money and fame.

When Jesus cried out "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" that was a sign that He lost His faith. So either the story is wrong, or Jesus was just another human.

The Resurrection is most likely the result of a technology we don't have and can't explain. But we will, and saying it's a miracle is just a shortcut. Perhaps it was alien technology.

Jesus changed the law.

The Mosaic law wasn't something that could be fulfilled, it was designed as law forever. (And I need a citation to show otherwise.)

Human concepts and descriptions of God are incomplete and unsatisfactory. (I agree by the way, but I think they're the best we can do, and enough to be going on with.)

The Universe is so large God probably doesn't care much about what happens here.

Aliens could have written the Holy books to either teach civilization or prepare the way for life in an agricultural society with laws. After all, the Bible has it's origins in Sumerian writings.

Angels, demons, and all the ancient gods and spirits should really be considered as the aliens they are. No sense sticking with old labels for them.

Your post was wonderful, and I hope I didn't maul it too badly. Let me know if I've got your meaning.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Fraudfinder

Dear Fraudfinder,

I'm especially grateful for your post, for you offer helpful criticism on more than just one of my arguments. By offering it on the entire thread and on me you force me to look at a broader picture which may contain the root of many problems.

The reason I put up this thread was that I ran across another post by a member who called the God of the Old Testament a "bumbling, primitive, idiot" and other names. I had seen that type of name-calling before and decided it needed a thread of its own to address the accusation, and not just a reply post. I do hope you noticed the question mark.

For the record, if it is necessary, I reject the claim that God is a maniac, stupid, primitive, idiotic, bumbling, and a host of other negative terms. I'm really sorry I caused you such distress.

Why are you trying to understand if God is a bumbling primitive idiot? By starting this thread you throw wood onto the fire and open up to comments from disbelievers who blasphemy God.

I understand that God is none of those things. My purpose is to get out in the open those charges and refute them as well as I am able. Many seem to accept that the Old Testament God is evil. I wanted to create a place where those ideas could be discussed without bitterness and rancor. I was hoping that some would go away with a new understanding of what God is like and what the Old Testament teaches.

Some folks are determined to reject the message of Jesus.

Quite true.

Rather than keep beating our heads against a wall that the evil one has erected in the heart of someone, God calls us to move on in our efforts to reach others.

My scope is limited. I have no office or work. I speak to my family regularly and that, with God's Grace, has shown results. My other outlets are a Christian group whose members I try to encourage, and lead to deeper prayer and communion with God. My other outlet is here. I hope to speak to all, but especially those who are open minded. Further, I have no idea how many people see these threads and do not comment. Perhaps they are affected.

Additionally, I hope to demonstrate that a Christian position can be maintained with reason, respect, and love. (Although, I despair of being the example I should be, and pray to God for His mercy and forgiveness.)

BTW: I notice you often say, "I apologize" in your posts. You have no reason to apologize.

Meek is not weakness.

I'm only expressing what I feel in my heart. If I am doing ill, please tell me how I am offending others by it, or sinning against God, and I will do my best to correct it.

With respect,
Charles1952

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

If that's the case, why are you here? Leave us sinful blaspheming heathens to burn in peace. Sounds like a better time than listening to you.

Since when is it up to you or anyone else to judge God? Do you think you can do better? I wondering if you or the other blaspheming heathens (your words) can face God and speak what you state here on ATS? Do you not fear God? Often I see many talk about love thy neighbor and how love is the number one commandment from Jesus but that is not true. The number one commandment Jesus said was:

Matthew 22:36-40 - 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So the first and foremost commandment is to love your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Jesus of course is talking about his father (the one from the OT) Is this what you and the others are doing within this thread?

If you are please explain because I do not see the love to God instead I see hate and disrespect for the OT God.

If we are to love God as Jesus stated is it correct to ridicule or to speculate about any of his decisions? Is this love with all your soul and mind?

If I am wrong then teach me.

reply to post by Pinke

Dear Pinke,

I know I'm interrupting your conversation with windword, but I hope you won't mind.

For me I suppose that part of it doesn't seem to matter. It seems to me that biblical morality isn't particularly special, . . .
Why does the biblical God follow the exact same trends that we would expect any law or moral creating system to follow?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Biblical morality is wildly special. It's really not, with one major exception which I'm sure you'll support.

The morality of the Bible can be found in almost all cultures, in almost all times. Some call it "Natural Law," C.S. Lewis borrowed the term Tao to describe it. It would have been astonishing, and even unbelievable, if the Bible claimed to have an entirely new moral code to live by. If you care to think of it this way, the Old Testament was a forceful reminder of the law, one of it's purposes was to remind people that they were "sinners" by their failure to live up to it.

Oh, the innovation to morality? Previously, the "Golden Rule" had been "Don't do anything to anybody that you wouldn't want done to you." The Bible provides a natural outgrowth to that rule, "Do, do unto others what you would want them to do to you." It becomes a positive rule, requiring loving action, not just the avoidance of harm.

This especially jumps out when referencing temporary laws or instructions such as in the OP. To me this implies the same moral relativism that secular moralists are accused of. . . .
Why were no preemptive deadlines placed on these temporary laws? Why haven't they been updated? God moves in mysterious ways they say, but so too does culture and society.

As you may have seen, my position is that the Mosaic laws were firm and consistent. Their "deadline" was when they had all been fulfilled. Jesus did that, and the world has the choice of living under the old law or the new. Christians are under the new law.

The freewill belief doesn't go far in my mind either since tempting a living creature with eternal life doesn't appear to be allowing that freewill to blossom in my mind.

Yet it's surprising how few succumb to that temptation. People are still free to choose wrongly, and as any glance at a newspaper will tell you, they frequently do.

To offer eternal life whilst making this current life as confusing and difficult as possible just seems cruel and unusual.

I disagree that God made our current life as confusing and difficult as it is. But even if He did, is it cruel to offer the hope of eternal life, rather than just saying "No way is that gonna happen?"

With respect,
Charles1952

I have no idea how I got a double post.

charles1952
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Dear Fraudfinder,

I'm especially grateful for your post, for you offer helpful criticism on more than just one of my arguments. By offering it on the entire thread and on me you force me to look at a broader picture which may contain the root of many problems.

The reason I put up this thread was that I ran across another post by a member who called the God of the Old Testament a "bumbling, primitive, idiot" and other names. I had seen that type of name-calling before and decided it needed a thread of its own to address the accusation, and not just a reply post. I do hope you noticed the question mark.

For the record, if it is necessary, I reject the claim that God is a maniac, stupid, primitive, idiotic, bumbling, and a host of other negative terms. I'm really sorry I caused you such distress.

Why are you trying to understand if God is a bumbling primitive idiot? By starting this thread you throw wood onto the fire and open up to comments from disbelievers who blasphemy God.

I understand that God is none of those things. My purpose is to get out in the open those charges and refute them as well as I am able. Many seem to accept that the Old Testament God is evil. I wanted to create a place where those ideas could be discussed without bitterness and rancor. I was hoping that some would go away with a new understanding of what God is like and what the Old Testament teaches.

Some folks are determined to reject the message of Jesus.

Quite true.

Rather than keep beating our heads against a wall that the evil one has erected in the heart of someone, God calls us to move on in our efforts to reach others.

My scope is limited. I have no office or work. I speak to my family regularly and that, with God's Grace, has shown results. My other outlets are a Christian group whose members I try to encourage, and lead to deeper prayer and communion with God. My other outlet is here. I hope to speak to all, but especially those who are open minded. Further, I have no idea how many people see these threads and do not comment. Perhaps they are affected.

Additionally, I hope to demonstrate that a Christian position can be maintained with reason, respect, and love. (Although, I despair of being the example I should be, and pray to God for His mercy and forgiveness.)

BTW: I notice you often say, "I apologize" in your posts. You have no reason to apologize.

Meek is not weakness.

I'm only expressing what I feel in my heart. If I am doing ill, please tell me how I am offending others by it, or sinning against God, and I will do my best to correct it.

With respect,
Charles1952

Thank you for your reply. I misunderstood you. I apologize

However I do understand "the others" and they make you an accomplice to their plot by pulling you in. Please my brother be careful and do not fall into a trap.

Many blessings

Jesus crying out, "My God My God why hast though forsaken me" was a teaching moment. He was quoting from Psalm 22 which speaks of the death of Messiah. He was declaring himself this one spoken of in the psalm.

Article on this issue.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

The fulfilled prophecy:

The Messiah would cry out to God. Psalm 22:1a Matthew 27:46

The Messiah would be foresaken by God. Psalm 22:1b Mark 15:34

The Messiah, anguished, would pray without ceasing. Psalm 22:2 Matthew 26:38-39

The Messiah would be despised. Psalm 22:6 Luke 23:21-23

The Messiah would be mocked by people shaking their heads. Psalm 22:7 Matthew 27:39

Mockers would say of the Messiah, "he trusted God, let him deliver him." Psalm 22:8 Matthew 27:41-43

The Messiah would be aware of his Father from his youth. Psalm 22:9 Luke 2:40

The Messiah would be called to God's service from the womb. Psalm 22:10 Luke 1:30-33

The Messiah would be abandoned by the disciples. Psalm 22:11 Mark 14:50

The Messiah would be surrounded by evil spirits. Psalm 22:12-13 Colossians 2:15

The Messiah's heart would burst, flowing with blood & water. Psalm 22:14a John 19:34

The Messiah would be crucified. Psalm 22:14b Matthew 27:35

The Messiah would thirst. Psalm 22:15a John 19:28

The Messiah would thirst shortly before his death. Psalm 22:15b John 19:30

The Messiah would be surrounded by Gentiles at his crucifixion. Psalm 22:16a Luke 23:36

The Messiah would be surrounded by Jews at his crucifixion. Psalm 22:16b Matthew 27:41-43

The Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16c Matthew 27:38

None of the Messiah's bones would be broken. Psalm 22:17a John 19:32-33

People would stare at the Messiah during his crucifixion. Psalm 22:17b Luke 23:35

The Messiah's garments would be divided. Psalm 22:18a John 19:23-24

Lots would be cast for the Messiah's clothes. Psalm 22:18b John 19:23-24

The Messiah's atonement would enable believers to be his brethren. Psalm 22:22 Hebrews 2:10-12

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Dear AfterInfinity,

Hi, there, AfterInfinity, I like your new avatar. It seems more peaceful, less violent and aggressive. Does that indicate a change in your editorial policy? I hope so.

But making the epitome of all evil and sending it to earth was perfectly acceptable?

He didn't make the epitome of evil, he made an angel who was the highest of Angels, the most beautiful, the "Light Bearer." Oh, and "giving birth" to Satan was probably a slip of the tongue. He didn't give birth to any of the angels, and He didn't create Satan, Satan got that new name as part of the plea agreement.

Giving the prince of darkness dominion over the creatures he was so jealous of was a logical and moral course of action?

Actually, we were the ones who decided to quit "God, and company" and join up with Satan's outfit. (Some posters claim it's Walmart, others claim it's Monsanto.)

Us humans were the reason he fell to begin with.

And here I thought it was pride and the desire to be equal to God, who created him.

Then he gets cast out of heaven to spend the remainder of his years with the creatures he was so disgusted with.

What's important to Satan is that God loves us. There's nothing he can do against God directly, so he decides to try to destroy God's loved ones. (Now you know where the mafia and some modern politicians got the idea.)

Think again, Charles. If bad ideas were an artform, God would be Da Vinci or Michelangelo.

I sincerely hope not. After all, you are one of His ideas.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

With your arrival we have added another star to the firmament of rational thought. I'm glad you're here. (Tell me, does it really make sense to apologize to me, of all people for being long-winded? I can't say "Hello" in less than three minutes.)

As for Cogito's remark, I can certainly understand the contempt or disdain that one feels when "meeting" this 'God' via interpretation of a collection of ancient writings, and as you may recall, I'm stuck at the point where translations and versions and interpretations of dead languages merge.

I absolutely agree. At first, or even second, reading, astonishment, shock, and even horror are completely understandable.

Having said that, I don't think ANY of the Bible versions are likely to be actual 'documentary evidence',

I think I agree, depending on what you meant by "documentary evidence." About all science and historians can tell us about the Bible with absolute certainty is that we've got almost precisely what was originally written. There is other evidence supporting it, but the Bible can't prove itself.

so I will address what I understand of the OT 'God' just as I would (and do) all characters from literature, movies, real-life interactions, etc. I hope that is an acceptable way to address your thoughts.

Absolutely, I'm looking forward to it.

Why would an all-knowing 'God', who sees into the hearts and minds and truth of EVERYTHING he 'created', not be able to tell his 'chosen people' apart from the riffraff?

God knew who the chosen people were, it wasn't intended for Him. I think He wanted the Israelites, and the people around them, to know that they were different, set aside.

This, to me, sounds like a way for human rulers and law enforcement personnel to know who is in their jurisdiction, much like orange jumpsuits, or school uniforms.

But in this case everybody wore the orange jumpsuits, the prisoners, guards, cops, judges, the President, everybody. It was to identify themselves as part of a different nation, a chosen people. No one was single out or controlled because of their beards, it showed membership.

OK, these are bad analogies, and can be picked apart, but they may help a little. If someone steps out of a dusty pick up truck towing a cattle trailer, and he's wearing boots and a weathered cowboy hat, and says "Howdy, Ma'am," are we dealing with someone from Massachusetts? If you walk into a bar in Wisconsin during a Minnesota Vikings - Green Bay Packers game, and one person is wearing purple and the rest are wearing green and gold, where does the guy in purple come from? (And what is his life expectancy after everyone has had a pitcher of beer?)

No one forces Green Bay fans to wear green and gold, they choose to, to identify with the team. All of the players on the field are dressed wildly differently, in order to tell their own teammates from the opposition. That's more what God had in mind then.

Come into my threads anytime. You'll always be welcome.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by lazernation

Dear lazernation,

Thanks for your clip. I haven't read Catch-22 for decades.

But, really, all it does is ask for the thirty gazillionth time, the question that all mankind asks: "Why is there evil, suffering, and death in the world?"

That is the subject for another thread.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by SasquatchHunter

Dear SasquatchHunter,

Perhaps you're right that I'm giving Akragon too much credit. But may I offer an alternative explanation for his behavior? (It may be wrong, but it's what I work under.)

One of Akragon's favorite thing to do is to attack what he sees as holes in the logic of Christians. I rather facetiously nicknamed him "The Scalpel" earlier in the thread, but there may be more truth to that than I knew. He is excellent at dissection, and cutting into things in general. He's valuable to me because he goes after anything which seems to him to be an error. He keeps me on my toes.

But, scalpels don't build. He hates the Old Testament God, and sees Paul as a fraud. I'm not sure what he believes in with, perhaps, the exception of reincarnation and the nice moral teachings of Jesus.

Whatever his beliefs, he expresses great confidence with them. He has never been rude to me, and I enjoy talking with him. He's certainly different from me, but that's what I'm here for. There are a couple of posters with whom I will have nothing to do, but Akragon certainly isn't one of them.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

I'm not sure what he believes in with, perhaps, the exception of reincarnation and the nice moral teachings of Jesus.

Which is what I also believe in.....
*embarrassed for raising hand to say "'me! me! what about me!" [punctuation and spelling errors intended].

Whatever his beliefs, he expresses great confidence with them. He has never been rude to me, and I enjoy talking with him. He's certainly different from me, but that's what I'm here for. There are a couple of posters with whom I will have nothing to do, but Akragon certainly isn't one of them.

I, as well, have great confidence in those beliefs. Reincarnation is real; quantum physics is proving how the consciousness works, and also, resuscitation occurs after hours, even days....even now. I have read dozens of stories (news-type sites, not 'fiction' sites; but....agenda is always to be expected) of people reviving after having been kept cold; after being in a morgue locker and waking up on the autopsy table, etc.

As well, NDEs seem to indicate that there is something 'more' than "Jesus" on the other side. There is a presence; an indescribable (entity? -- no)....presence. And, it cares not what 'religious outfit' one dons, or which 'teacher' one reveres....because all roads lead to the same place.

Life here on earth is a classroom/school. My belief has evolved into one that attributes the 'resurrection' to Jesus' knowledge of Eastern Mystical teachings, and/or to being like those who have recently 'revived' after certain conditions (during which they were pronounced DEAD) - matter of fact that we are only now beginning to explain.

All of my life, I have disbelieved in "the resurrection" .... it simply did not compute. So I conjectured that it was simply allegorical myth. But now, there is quantum physics that shows how it might have been done then - and after all, he did say: "You can do all of this, and more." (paraphrasing)

And he also said: "You must be born again." Water and spirit and so forth. And, I left out of my previous post the NDErs who were not "kept cold", but were also clinically "dead" - who, even after rigor mortis set in, "revived."

Jesus talked about those very things.
ANyway, that's all. Oh, and also - ancient aliens - as Saturn FX described. That, too, is not something I rule out. But it seems more that Jesus knew the teachings of the mystics, who can reduce their breathing and heartrates; who can 'levitate', and otherwise "transcend" so-called 'reality' and 'physics.'

If he learned from them, then they have something worth sharing. Much like Buddha, etc.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

Just watched "Dead Man Walking." Powerful movie, that.

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

what about me!

Well, you're a wonderful, sweet person who holds the same view that many do. They require ditching the Bible, which I'm not prepared to do, but they're your views. "Of course I'll respect you in the morning" (Blast these limp-wristed smileys! I can't find one that fits.) But I can't say the same about those beliefs.

I just had a thought, what happens when people are dying out? What do the last 50 or so sick and dying people come back as? Plants?

But even with that, you're still one of my favorite people.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Fraudfinder

Do you not fear God?

You didn't ask me, but....if you had, my answer would be

no.

There is nothing to fear. We are all part of the Divine, and we will all get there, in our own time and way.