It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
charles1952
reply to post by Akragon
Dear Akragon,
You are invaluable! No wonder you are universally loved. When I make a mistake or am unclear, Akragon "The Scalpel," comes to set it right. (No, I haven't forgotten your secret nickname, but I won't use it as long as you keep the cookie shipments current.) This time, I think it was a lack of clarity on my part, thanks for catching it.
Jesus did know where He was going, He prophesied it at least three times in the Gospels. Rather than give you one of my awkward analogies, I'll tell you what I think happened. Up until the time He was on the cross, He knew what was going to happen. Then, somehow, he was completely separated from God. I can almost hear Him saying "Hey! What's going on here? Who turned out the lights?" and similar exclamations of astonishment.
I think, at that moment, he bore His greatest suffering. A time when God, who was always with Him, suddenly wasn't. Did He know, even then, that He was going to Heaven? I don't know. But if the certainty ever left His mind, that was when it happened.
With respect,
Charles1952
That gets into a discussion with which you're probably familiar. What does the word "Kill" mean in that setting. Is it taking innocent life? In that case, the transgressors weren't innocent by definition. How does it apply in cases of self-defense, or defense of your country.
Also, God told the Israelites "Thou Shall Not Kill", then proceeded to order them to kill people of the other cities, because they didn't worship him, and to kill their own kin for various other transgressions.
That's a question I'm going to have to pass on, I don't know. But would you have been approving if God wiped them out, instead of the Israelites?
Why would God need men to do his dirty work for him? Why not do the deed himself, like he did with the flood and with Sodom and Gomorrah?
Dear windword, think for a moment. If no sinner could reproduce, what do you think the population of the world would be today? While environmentalists would be delighted that the Earth was free of the "infection" of Man, there would be none around to enjoy it.
Why not make sinners unable to reproduce? In retrospect, this Old Testament God didn't plan things very well.
Here's my best guess. I'm not speaking with any authority. What good is a test if there are no questions you can get wrong?
One of my biggest issue with this so called god is the fact that he put his rebellious, fallen angels along side his perfect and beloved creation. Then he allowed these demons to corrupt and rape them! Not very smart, if you ask me.
The translation of thou shalt not kill is translated more accurately to murder as in unlawful killing in most cases.
The original word (ratsah) likely had a very deep and varied meaning to the original people that spoke it which wasn't quite the same as murder, and I imagine there is some debate about how the word should be applied in modern terms ... That said, I don't believe the original translation actually contradicts scripture as much as is claimed often.
Deuteronomy 32
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.
It should (based on my study) refer to specific types of killing, not all types of killing.
How can a lamb (or a rock, or a flower) be innocent or guilty? They have no moral code which they follow. They can not form an evil intent. I don't understand. And if you have contempt for any entity that kills the innocent, I must assume you are at least a vegetarian. But even vegetarians violently uproot and end the lives of "innocent" plants. I must really be misunderstanding you.
I can not respect an entity that promotes killing of the innocent...(even if its something like a lamb)
I'm saying "Sir" to anybody who can create a Universe.
Respect is earned in my eyes, not freely given
Thank you, suggestions help keep me on the straight and narrow (usually). But again, I'm forced to say ????? (If that's how you spell it.) My understanding is that the Father of Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Why did Jesus follow the law of Moses? Why was he always quoting the Old Testament, reading the Torah in Synagogues? Would Jesus pay that sort of respect to a false God? He called the Temple, built according to Old Testament specifications, "My Father's house," and went ballistic over it's misuse.
Perhaps I might make a suggestion since you did the same... Worship the God that is Called "love"... even the Father of Jesus... And steer clear of the False God in the OT
I can agree that the Old Testament has "Myth" or "Legend." It also has poetry, love songs, and church hymns. But I don't agree that it's all fraudulent. And, yes, I remember the Jews worshiping a golden calf. that little slip got them sentenced to 40 years manna and water.
Hmm... I recall saying Paul is a fraud numerous times... The OT is a book of myth and legend, which also documents a false God worshiped by the Jews of the time... What I was saying is that the supposed atrocities committed by various Tribes of the time were likely made up to influence the followers of this god to invade and conquer the land...
They may be, but I don't have your certainty. Adam and Eve were apparently the first "humans" with souls. Whether they were made individually, or a pair reached humanity and God intervened, or whatever, I don't know. Certainly, only they, God, and the Deceiver were present. Remember Dan Rather? I think he was the one who said "The facts were incorrect, but the story was true."
Which is it going to be? The Old Testament is a fabrication, or the Old Testament is the truth?
Both I suppose... Adam and eve... Fabrication
Noahs flood... Fabrication
Talking snake... LOL... FUNNY!
To be honest, I tend to rely on the agreement of experts to help me know which is which. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to say the parts I don't like are fabrications.
Though I'm sure there were real events documented as well...
YOU'RE RIGHT! I try, many Christians do it much better than I do. I admit, some times I'm distracted by the events of the day and miss my "celebration." But you've pointed out a wonderful path, I'll work on it.
Sure... I celebrate Xmas as well... but shouldn't Jesus' life be celebrated every day?
Again, absolutely right. Unfortunately, in my case, time is about all I have to give. Please accept my gift to you.
Did he not say Give freely... Not give one day a year... and don't forget to wrap that gift up and put a bow on it?
What does the word "Kill" mean in that setting. Is it taking innocent life? In that case, the transgressors weren't innocent by definition. How does it apply in cases of self-defense, or defense of your country.
Deuteronomy 25
11 When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts,
12 then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity.”
Deuteronomy 22
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Dear windword, think for a moment. If no sinner could reproduce, what do you think the population of the world would be today? While environmentalists would be delighted that the Earth was free of the "infection" of Man, there would be none around to enjoy it.
How can a lamb (or a rock, or a flower) be innocent or guilty? They have no moral code which they follow. They can not form an evil intent. I don't understand.
And if you have contempt for any entity that kills the innocent, I must assume you are at least a vegetarian. But even vegetarians violently uproot and end the lives of "innocent" plants. I must really be misunderstanding you.
I'm saying "Sir" to anybody who can create a Universe.
My understanding is that the Father of Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Why did Jesus follow the law of Moses?
Why was he always quoting the Old Testament, reading the Torah in Synagogues?
Would Jesus pay that sort of respect to a false God?
He called the Temple, built according to Old Testament specifications, "My Father's house," and went ballistic over it's misuse.
I can agree that the Old Testament has "Myth" or "Legend." It also has poetry, love songs, and church hymns. But I don't agree that it's all fraudulent. And, yes, I remember the Jews worshiping a golden calf. that little slip got them sentenced to 40 years manna and water.
Adam and Eve were apparently the first "humans" with souls. Whether they were made individually, or a pair reached humanity and God intervened, or whatever, I don't know. Certainly, only they, God, and the Deceiver were present. Remember Dan Rather? I think he was the one who said "The facts were incorrect, but the story was true."
Talking snake? So you don't believe in telepathy?
Again, absolutely right. Unfortunately, in my case, time is about all I have to give. Please accept my gift to you.
charles1952
reply to post by SaturnFX
You think you could take that, even if you knew that you were returning to heaven?
I couldn't. But He didn't even know that. Remember His famous words, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" He didn't know he was going to Heaven, He didn't even have God available to ease His pain. He was without God, a condition people also call "Hell."
I'm also confused by your claim that the Resurrection was a magic trick. Tell me, how was it done?
What magician today can take a dead body and restore it to life?
My apologies, but "fulfilled" is not the same as revoked or amended. When one is released from prison, it isn't because the sentence was revoked or amended, it's because the punishment has been fulfilled.
And that is, since Jesus fulfilled (read: revoked / amended) the former rules, it demonstrates that the diety in question is -not- infallible.
17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Oh, and thinking that God is unreal because mere humans don't have the words or concepts to depict him accurately as he is, seems faulty to me.
windword
reply to post by Pinke
What is a "lawful" killing, according to the God of the Old Testament?
Just as we (I would hope) would not steal from a Salvation Army kettle because it goes against our very being, so God would not create a moral law against His own being.
I notice you haven't lost your talent with words, ol' STD. (Wait a minute. That's not going to work as an abbreviation. Oooops. Sorry.)
For the first time ever on ATS I feel a little smug. I think I answered your question before I even heard it. Excuse me while I polish my fingernails on my shirtfront. If you find some fault with my analogy to the released prisoner, I'd be pleased to hear about it. I don't want to go around with bad ideas.
You're absolutely right about His complete fulfillment of the law. We are no longer slaves to it. I hope you'll forgive me, but I know almost nothing about Fundamentalist beliefs on this, or any other religious or spiritual question. After at least a couple of decades poking around here and there, I finally settled on Catholicism and I'm still very content with it. Granted, I don't know it as well as I should, but that's my fault not the Church's.
One of the main purposes of these laws was to keep the Israelites identifiable and separate from their neighbors. God had set them aside to be a special people dedicated to Him, and things like scraggly beards were simple ways of doing that. Other laws, such as the dietary and health laws also served to re-emphasize the distinction between pure and impure.