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The Old Testament God is a Bumbling, Primitive, Idiot?

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posted on Nov, 19 2013 @ 10:17 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 



What do the last 50 or so sick and dying people come back as? Plants?

LOL!! What??

I don't get what your point is. No, people don't come back as plants. I'm on the fence about dolphins, whales, and elephants, however. Perhaps people who have evolved past "humandom" come back as those wise, incredible, intelligent creatures.

But, as plants? No.

And, (as I think I recall Akragon saying - but maybe not) there are kukillions of other planets out there, to/from which souls may come, or go.....but Earth is a particularly important place right now. (This I learned from a spiritual teacher 13 years ago....).

Reincarnation is not about being a bug or plant or fish...it is about learning the lessons that life teaches (many of them PAINFUL...others CONFUSING, or JOYOUS, or TROUBLING, or DEVASTATING).....
so that our souls have the full continuum of experience. And then we are ready to reunite with the "Divine Source". But first, we have to EXPERIENCE all of the various possibilities and options of being human, and learn compassion, empathy, and unconditional regard.


edit on 11/19/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 19 2013 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Au contraire, mon frère! There really is no need to ditch the Bible to embrace the concept of reincarnation. The words and teachings of Jesus confirm it. But, it's okay not to embrace reincarnation, it will embrace you!



edit on 19-11-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 01:11 AM
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windword
reply to post by charles1952
 


Au contraire, mon frère! There really is no need to ditch the Bible to embrace the concept of reincarnation. The words and teachings of Jesus confirm it. But, it's okay not to embrace reincarnation, it will embrace you!



edit on 19-11-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)


Jesus never said anything about reincarnation, and all the so called expository statements you have made are not based on the bible. We can agree to disagree, but please show some proof of Jesus saying we come back over and over.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2Sa 14:14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.


Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.


Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


The things you are saying are just not based on the words in the bible. They are a new age pseudo Christianity, and Jesus warned us of them. Paul for all his faults did speak 99% truth:

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 03:21 AM
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windword
reply to post by Pinke
 


Hiya back, Pinke!




I'm not an atheist, I believe in some kind of unifying force that evokes love.

Is interesting question for me to ask you, but would you consider that unifying force as God? Or is it just a thing?

I find it curious to think about this because personally I could imagine a vast intelligence, but that doesn't automatically mean I would give it the same properties that a God would normally request or demand. I don't see why I should give respect to a vast intelligence or unifying force by default which I suppose is my concern when it comes to mainstream religion ... I feel persons often hand that respect over too readily or assume right when in fact they are witnessing might.


I think of the story of the "Gold Calf", and it makes me think, a lot of time the Bible itself is used as an idol and distracts us

Yes, this is true of so many things be it the American constitution or a religion. Once something becomes honored tradition it should be questioned more not less, else we hand our minds over to auto pilot.

For Charles:

charles1952
reply to post by Pinke
 

The morality of the Bible can be found in almost all cultures, in almost all times. Some call it "Natural Law," C.S. Lewis borrowed the term Tao to describe it.

Which is precisely were my problem lies. C.S Lewis just reverses the responsibility of the question by making a claim that naturalized morality is God's morality ... but this itself causes issue. If the natural law is God's law, then we aren't all sinners, and if we aren't all sinners then Jesus saved us (essentially) from nothing because our natural state and the morals derived from our intelligence in that state are a constant by design.

I might be glossing over some of Lewis's argument though. Perhaps I'll go back and read some before I comment too much. Still, it would worry me that a God would give humans inbuilt 'niceness' and then allow animals to smash each other to dust with feelings of emotion and pain and think that was okay.


Oh, the innovation to morality? Previously, the "Golden Rule" had been "Don't do anything to anybody that you wouldn't want done to you." The Bible provides a natural outgrowth to that rule

Quotes from 5th and 6th century BC:


"Zi Gong asked, saying, "Is there one word that may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?" The Master said, "Is not reciprocity such a word?" -Confucious

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." –Laozi

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." –Laozi

Source
There are some other examples of the positive version of the golden rule arising out of non-Christian cultures in ancient times, too. These examples are pretty good though.


As you may have seen, my position is that the Mosaic laws were firm and consistent. Their "deadline" was when they had all been fulfilled.

Not an indefensible position on several counts, which is one of the reasons why I don't think the bible is as inconsistent as is initially believed at times. Though I think it's still debatable in some areas.


I disagree that God made our current life as confusing and difficult as it is. But even if He did, is it cruel to offer the hope of eternal life, rather than just saying "No way is that gonna happen?"

Can see where this comes from, but it comes back to the 'our fault' issue I have. I just feel that if the Christian God exists, my first words to God would be something like ...

Okay, so you asked me the meaning of life, gave me under 60 years to work it out with nothing but a near 2000 year old book to go on and a big pile of random? ... WORST game of jeopardy EVER.

Common atheist question which am sure most persons in this thread have already considered, but I think is worth asking: If God exists then why does everything look as it would if God didn't exist?

If a superior being created human morality, then why does everything progress as if God hadn't created human morality?

Whilst the possibility exists that an intelligent being created morality and influenced laws beyond human ken, the very same evidence leaned on by C.S Lewis appears to equally (more so in my opinion) support a completely Godless explanation.

There is no law, thought, or idea in the bible than an ordinary human is / or was incapable of having as far as I can see.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 09:19 AM
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GAAAAH!!! You Christians give me a bloody headache sometimes...

Seriously... I love you people... but READ the DAMN Book... STOP listening to your preachers.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity
 



Jesus never said anything about reincarnation, and all the so called expository statements you have made are not based on the bible. We can agree to disagree, but please show some proof of Jesus saying we come back over and over.


Oh didn't he now.... YOU must be born again... Sound familiar?

Yes I know what you've been taught... it happens in this life time... that is a lie!

Fabricated by the Early Fathers of your religion so the people that follow said religion will believe you only have one chance... So you better get it right or you're headed to HELL, which is another lie

They don't want you to believe in second or even third chances let alone Millions of them... The soul does not die... it is eternal...

Feel free to believe Paul or Pseudo Paul if you like though....

Hebrews 9:27 is NOT talking about reincarnation.... read the entire chapter... DON'T Just take that verse and assume the writer is talking about something that isn't even being discussed... That CHAPTER is detailing how JESUS only had to die once to save man kind.... It has nothing to do with reincarnation... And it most definitely does not disprove it...

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


SOOOOOOOO.... IF you plan on going to heaven, or even hope to go there when you pass from this world... YOU have already been there...


And its interesting that you would bring up Job... apparently you decided to skip the first chapter...

20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.


HOW does one return to his mothers womb?

Well theres only one way my friend.... reincarnation.

And this subject is SO off topic it makes my head spin... sigh


edit on 20-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by Fraudfinder
 


I don't care what Jesus said about God. If we loved each other half as much as we loved God, the world wouldn't be in this mess. Maybe it's about time to reevaluate your priorities.

ETA: I saw in another post that you've met the Holy Spirit in person. Have you ever thought about sharing that experience? Or have you already done so?
edit on 20-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



if you believe in reincarnation I have a question.

Lets say someone has been reincarnated five times, so at the time of the resurrection which body do you take from the alleged five?

Reincarnation is a myth.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Akra

What does the book say about that verse you just quoted about being born again? Would you care to refresh us about the whole conversation about Jesus and Nicodemus?

It was Nicodemus who proposed reincarnation, but what did Jesus say?

And are you the Son of Man? Can you tell me who is the Son of Man? I would love your intrepetation of that one, that by the way, is most likely based in a misunderstanding.

So tell us about the Zeitgeist of the spiritual and natural.

The Jewish believe in reincarnation is not that one comes back, but the spirit of what the person was about will come back. Like Elijah, as they open the door for Elijah to come, it does not mean they believe another baby will be born that was Elijah at one time, they believe the Spirit of Elijah will come and manifest as a human. That's different than the reincarnation belief of one person going from body to body.
edit on 11/20/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 



Fascinating. This is off-topic, but you have just shown that Man is unique in all the world. He is the only being who can be innocent or guilty, and can be innocent only if he replaces his instinctual behavior with some "Higher Law." Be careful, at this rate it won't be long until you're attending Mass with me. May I buy you your first Rosary? (You can't tell, because I've only got these crummy smileys to work with, but I'm chuckling.)


Im closer then you know brother... My girlfriend insists I convert to her religion... and though my beliefs will not change if that happens... I would do it for her



Others have mentioned that we might all be products of genetic engineering done by aliens, or an alien-ape hybrid, or something to do with aliens. Does that solve the problem? No, that position either explains nothing, or admits the existence of God. The questions now are, how were the aliens created, how was the Universe created?

If the Universe was created by the aliens, and they always existed, you're getting awfully close to the definition of God. If it wasn't created by the aliens and they came into existence at some point, then we have the same discussion we have now, except we replace the word "Man" with the word "alien."


The universe wasn't created by aliens... that I am sure of.... but this theory only reinforces the OT God was NOT God...


Boy, Akragon, I don't know. That doesn't seem to be what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19:


Lets have a look my friend...

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Was he actually speaking of the Law of Moses? The law given by man?

I think not... He was speaking of the law that has always existed... the law of Love

And what did he say about that law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


I can only come to the conclusion that Jesus is saying the law and the prophets are perfectly good and binding until they are completely fulfilled. Where does that leave us? The Old Testament was correct and supported by Jesus, at least in it's laws and prophets, and as He fulfilled the Law, he must be the one prophesied, the Messiah, or Savior of the world. (I know it looks like I skipped a logical step there, but I've only got so much time and you can fill it in yourself.)


Looks can be deceiving.... The prophets did tell of his coming... but that's pretty much all its good for... Without the OT the words of Jesus still stand strong... the OT not needed...

Why would Jesus say "ALL that came before me are thieves and robbers" IF it was good? Because ALL that came before him was recorded in the OT... at least in that part of the world...

Buddha came before him... so did Krishna... and I don't see many issues with either of the writing that is apparently from their followers... At least not in comparison to the Imposter in the OT


Scientists are informing us that early humans may have cross-bred with late, whatever the scientific name for slightly pre-human is. I'm sure there was enough genetic variety to go around. I still insist that Adam and Eve were two (or maybe more, could the name be collective?) people with souls who God had set aside for a special life. They served as "representatives" of a sort for all mankind. They chose wrongly and the entire human race became infected with the results of their bad decision.


ok but they ate an apple... and suddenly were imbued with the knowledge...

IF this false god didn't want them to eat the damn apple, why would put the tree in the garden in the first place?

Isn't that tempting his children? Who else do we know that likes to tempt man?


I'm glad you laughed. If we don't get some fun from this, what's the use? Isn't it easier to believe in a talking snake and donkey than a talking bush? Especially if the bush is on fire?


No... LOL

IF this burning bush was actually a hologram... something as simple as a walkie talkie could have been hidden under a rock near by....

And God presseth the orange button on his walkie talkie... and sayth on to him... "God to moses... take off your damn sandles... you tread on holy ground and they're disrupting my signal... Over!"


If it were me, I'd be talking too, but I'd be saying "Help! Put me out! Ouch! That's hot!" But seriously, if one doesn't accept even the possibility of miracles, there's no sense discussing Christianity. Christianity doesn't exist without miracles.


Do you think IF Moses and all his pals saw Technology that even today is far beyond our capacity... he would believe it was a miracle?

Im sure miracles exist... I believe Jesus healed people... but we're talking about the OT God here...


edit on 20-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


The god of this world is Satan and as long as he, his fallen angels, demons, and evil people who worship him; have full rein of this world there can not be a worldwide peace BUT you as an individual can find peace through Jesus.


Yes, I have met the Holy Spirit in 1999. I have also met God in 2013.

I am/have considered opening a thread on this but this is not a Christian forum is it? Since the majority at this site are back biters and unbelievers I don't need unbelievers ridiculing the thread and since I have been here at ATS I have enough people who hate me due to my non-wavering zealous attitude towards God.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:08 AM
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Fraudfinder
reply to post by Akragon
 



if you believe in reincarnation I have a question.

Lets say someone has been reincarnated five times, so at the time of the resurrection which body do you take from the alleged five?

Reincarnation is a myth.


So apparently you believe YOU are your body... isn't that nifty...

And according to Christianity you also believe people that have already passed lie in wait for this "resurrection" to happen as well...

The resurrection happens when you pass... Its something that has always happened... You are "raised" to God

Though I prefer to think of it as returning home....

And no reincarnation isn't a myth... Christianity is the ONLY religion that denies it... And that is because it is a fear based religion.....

ONE life is a myth.... designed to instill that fear

"



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by Fraudfinder
 


Ah, so you will deprive your fellow Christians because of our skepticism. You are easily discouraged if that's the case.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Akra

What does the book say about that verse you just quoted about being born again? Would you care to refresh us about the whole conversation about Jesus and Nicodemus?

It was Nicodemus who proposed reincarnation, but what did Jesus say?


You're focusing on the wrong part my friend... Never mind what Nicodemus said... Look what Jesus said...

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


And are you the Son of Man? Can you tell me who is the Son of Man? I would love your intrepetation of that one, that by the way, is most likely based in a misunderstanding.


Everyone is the Son or daughter of man... Including Jesus.... and yes I know you believe Jesus was the son of man... yet according to the book he was the son of God by his own words...

The son of man has power on earth to forgive sins.... IF a man sins against you... you have the power to forgive him... or not... but beware of what he said in Matthew 6


So tell us about the Zeitgeist of the spiritual and natural.


No idea what you're talking about


The Jewish believe in reincarnation is not that one comes back, but the spirit of what the person was about will come back. Like Elijah, as they open the door for Elijah to come, it does not mean they believe another baby will be born that was Elijah at one time, they believe the Spirit of Elijah will come and manifest as a human. That's different than the reincarnation belief of one person going from body to body.


Interesting that you mentioned that.... John was Elijah...

Even though John himself denied it... Jesus confirmed it by saying "THIS IS ELIJAH"... He did not say this is the spirit of Elijah... he said specifically JOHN IS ELIJAH...

So who do you believe? John or Jesus?




posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:20 AM
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And we are STILL off topic people....




posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


How eager are you to discuss your personal life on the internet? What about a very intimate event that occurred in your life?

I am no one special, just a sinner like you.


I am sure millions have met the Holy Spirit and God on numerous occasions, just like millions have met Satan and his fallen angels.

One of the gifts God's people are lucky to receive is discernment. I wish you request was sincere but we both know it is not.


There is a time and place for all things and like I said I am thinking about it even though I have been told it would be a waste of time.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I have been repeatedly warned by ATS to stay on subject matter.


This would be a great thread. I suggest someone open it up.

I guess someone is closely watching every single thread I post and the second I get off topic someone cry's to ATS. Isn't that silly?



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by Fraudfinder
 


Or you could just focus on the topic. Although I really don't think you can win this one.
edit on 20-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


I understand but I go/do where the spirit leads me not what doctrines of men require.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:46 AM
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Fraudfinder
reply to post by Akragon
 


I have been repeatedly warned by ATS to stay on subject matter.


This would be a great thread. I suggest someone open it up.

I guess someone is closely watching every single thread I post and the second I get off topic someone cry's to ATS. Isn't that silly?


Theres lots of threads on reincarnation brother... Just gotta look

Search the archives... I even have a few of them




posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by Fraudfinder
 


Well, the least your "spirit friend" can do is provide you with some decent arguments to support your claims. So far, you've been very unconvincing.




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