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The Old Testament God is a Bumbling, Primitive, Idiot?

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posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 




Wouldn't it make more sense to convert them? I wonder what the "other practices" are and if any of them are practiced today? Should we still destroy these people or their descendants? If He didn't want His people to be influenced by the others, what does that say about His creation? Imperfect or He wasn't sure what they would do.


Yep, there's that. Also, God told the Israelites "Thou Shall Not Kill", then proceeded to order them to kill people of the other cities, because they didn't worship him, and to kill their own kin for various other transgressions. Why would God need men to do his dirty work for him? Why not do the deed himself, like he did with the flood and with Sodom and Gomorrah?

Why not make sinners unable to reproduce? In retrospect, this Old Testament God didn't plan things very well.

One of my biggest issue with this so called god is the fact that he put his rebellious, fallen angels along side his perfect and beloved creation. Then he allowed these demons to corrupt and rape them! Not very smart, if you ask me.




posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 

Hi Charles, "silver tongued devil" here.

You seem to lean toward more of a fundamentalist view of scripture and doctrine. If that is incorrect, my apologies. If that is correct. I am curious to know why you, and some of the other Christians on ATS, don't expound on the reason Christians do not "keep" the law?

Rather than say, those laws were for a different time, and a different society, which I do agree with btw. Why not say it as it is? Christ fulfilled those laws, and the old covenant. There are a myriad of verses which explain how and why Christ released the believer from the bondage of the law. Romans chapter 7 comes to mind presently. Obviously, it would take some explaining, but that is what scripture says. Paul didn't spend all that time explaining it in his epistles for nothing. Just a curiosity. Not a criticism by any means.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 

Dear superman2012,


Aren't most the "Christian" holidays "borrowed" days from other religions to allow an easier transition into the Christian religion?
I'm not sure what you meant by that. The date may have been borrowed, a lot of feasts were determined by the moon. The solstices were always big, so some dates were just naturally party days. But I don't accept the idea that a pagan holiday was adopted as a Christian holiday by changing a few words.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 





I am so happy to see you! I was hoping you'd jump in here. If it won't ruin your reputation on these boards, I'll tell you that you're precious to me. Well, let's see what you've got for me.


Im hardy worried about my Rep brother... Love me or hate me, im here to stay... some people just have to deal with it I suppose...

And you must have known I would show up in a thread based around the OT God... Considering he/she/it is my enemy... And the only one I WILL NOT love...


Well, then you have a disagreement with Cogito, Ergo Sum. I'd pay a nickel to watch the contest between you two to decide who can come up with the better perjorative. But, really, it's between you and God what you call Him.


He is not my God... So it matters not what I choose to call him... but he calls himself those names and so do his followers... Soooooooo...


I'd suggest respect, but that's up to you.


I can not respect an entity that promotes killing of the innocent...(even if its something like a lamb)

Respect is earned in my eyes, not freely given


You're absolutely right, I agree. I've listened to arguments, been a part of various faith traditions, read books, examined claims, and after all that I don't know anything better than to worship God.


Perhaps I might make a suggestion since you did the same... Worship the God that is Called "love"... even the Father of Jesus... And steer clear of the False God in the OT


You may have missed my point. I was saying that some of the Old Testament laws are moral laws which are binding regardless of whether they're found in the New Testament.


My mistake... yet my statement still stands...



If you want to say the Old Testament is fraudulent and has no relationship to reality, fine, that's your call. Some would argue about evidence from archaeology and the fulfillment of prophecy, to the conclusion that it is real.


Hmm... I recall saying Paul is a fraud numerous times... The OT is a book of myth and legend, which also documents a false God worshiped by the Jews of the time... What I was saying is that the supposed atrocities committed by various Tribes of the time were likely made up to influence the followers of this god to invade and conquer the land...

Remember G.W Bush and his little thing with "weapons of mass distruction" as a reason to invade... Yet in actuality he just wanted Oil?

Operation
Iraqi
Liberation

Same idea...


Which is it going to be? The Old Testament is a fabrication, or the Old Testament is the truth?


Both I suppose... Adam and eve... Fabrication

Noahs flood... Fabrication

Talking snake... LOL... FUNNY!

Though im sure there were real events documented as well...


Would it have helped if I had skipped the shorthand and said "It isn't the day when the Church decided to celebrate Jesus' birth, it isn't the day when the Church has decided to commemorate Jesus' death, it's the day when all Christians should give a hoot and a holler as they explode in joy over Jesus' resurrection?"

Really, I don't care what holidays may have been influenced by what traditions. I care about what the holiday (Holy day. Get it?) means now.


Sure... I celebrate Xmas as well... but shouldn't Jesus' life be celebrated every day?

Did he not say Give freely... Not give one day a year... and don't forget to wrap that gift up and put a bow on it?

Perhaps im just being facetious... bad habbit of mine





edit on 18-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Agree to disagree I guess. It seems that it matters which denomination of Christianity a person is that shapes their beliefs about Christianity and Paganism.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:28 PM
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superman2012
reply to post by charles1952
 


Agree to disagree I guess. It seems that it matters which denomination of Christianity a person is that shapes their beliefs about Christianity and Paganism.


Perhaps this might help...

Sol Invictus




posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 

One of the main purposes of these laws was to keep the Israelites identifiable and separate from their neighbors. God had set them aside to be a special people dedicated to Him . . .
The laws were used to determine who could participate in the temple services, and they were written on a big sign at the entrance to the temple courtyard, with the warning that only those who abide by these laws can enter.
What came later was creating a myth as to where these laws came from, to give them an air of authority.
The actual law of God is what came from the representative person of God, namely Jesus.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Dear SaturnFX,

What a lengthy and thought out response, thank you. I suppose you know that I don't agree with all of it. Let me explain why, then we can keep walking together.


Not sure why Jesus is worth the title of hero if he sacrificed almost nothing.
I don't have much feeling either way for the title of "hero," but if you think His sacrifice was similar to a papercut, I would ask you to re-read the accounts of the Crucifixion. Jesus was human, he experienced pain. I don't think any of us could have lasted 30 minutes under a Roman flogging without collapsing, willing to do anything to stop it. The torture continued, the pain and weakness grew, then the Crucifixion. A paper cut? Spikes driven through your body, a paper cut? The suffocation on the Cross as he tried to get into a position where the pain lessened, only to find his breath was cut off.

You think you could take that, even if you knew that you were returning to heaven? I couldn't. But He didn't even know that. Remember His famous words, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" He didn't know he was going to Heaven, He didn't even have God available to ease His pain. He was without God, a condition people also call "Hell."

I'm also confused by your claim that the Resurrection was a magic trick. Tell me, how was it done? What magician today can take a dead body and restore it to life? (And, yes, Jesus was dead. These were Roman soldiers. They had done this plenty of times, they knew what dead looked like.)


And that is, since Jesus fulfilled (read: revoked / amended) the former rules, it demonstrates that the diety in question is -not- infallible.
My apologies, but "fulfilled" is not the same as revoked or amended. When one is released from prison, it isn't because the sentence was revoked or amended, it's because the punishment has been fulfilled.

17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Matthew 5:17


I think the plot of the bible story (old + new) is the story of a person (or most likely persons) testing their hand out at abiogenesis and new intelligent life. (aka, hinting on alien theory),
Interesting, I disagree of course, but if true, what is the purpose of the Bible? It's concerned with sin, holiness, and redemption. For it's message (and Jesus is supposed to be a good teacher, remember) to remain hidden from the very beginning up to the time the UFo craze hits in, say the last century, and to provide us with no meaningful insights, seems more far-fetched than the Bible stories.

Your last argument seems to be that since all the Abrahamic believers have a different view of God and what He wants (and I don't agree with that), therefore God has no relation to any religion. I don't see how that follows. Isn't it more likely to say that man has split off and gone his own way, and reached different conclusions? Failures on the part of the followers doesn't automatically mean failures on the part of God.

Oh, and thinking that God is unreal because mere humans don't have the words or concepts to depict him accurately as he is, seems faulty to me. Of course we can't describe Him perfectly. I don't think I'd believe in Him if we could. Describe love and all it's attendant emotions and effects. And we can't even do that when it's between two humans, and most of us have experienced it.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Pardon my interruption my friend... but it must be said


You think you could take that, even if you knew that you were returning to heaven? I couldn't. But He didn't even know that. Remember His famous words, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" He didn't know he was going to Heaven,


He knew exactly where he was headed...

John 8
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


John 13
36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.




posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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Guys, I'm sorry, but I've got to run for a little while, not sure when I'll be back, but I will. This is working out splendidly. You're being courteous and honest. I'm so grateful for that, that's how I learn. I'm not abandoning this, I'll be back as soon as I can.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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superman2012
reply to post by charles1952
 




Consider the people whom God ordered destroyed. They practiced adultery, bestiality, burning children as a sacrifice to Molech, and temple prostitution, among other practices.

Wouldn't it make more sense to convert them? I wonder what the "other practices" are and if any of them are practiced today? Should we still destroy these people or their descendants? If He didn't want His people to be influenced by the others, what does that say about His creation? Imperfect or He wasn't sure what they would do.

Finally, the biggest flaw I see in organized Religion is, why would God make people with souls? Why have those souls inhabit bodies only to die later and join him in Heaven? Why not just keep them in Heaven? There is no point to it unless we are just bags of meat.


My 2 cents.


I can't speak for other religions or variations that don't follow the Bible.
God created "heaven" angels and all the supernatural things before man. What separates man from his other creations is free will. When man decided to take his own path from God after being cast from the Garden of Eden. This is the bulk of the OT. What happens to man when they are separated from God, and the ways they tried to bridge that speration. The sins of man can never exist in front of God.
The NT is about Jesus creating that bridge without destroying free will. Sin is the invention of man, and so is some alleged master race, everyone is equal in the eyes of God. Accepting that piece of God that allows you to be in his precense abolishes every draconian mosaic law. Everyone's soul is already saved, if you never accept Jesus on your on free will you can never rejoin God. You have to decide for yourself Gods way is the only way.

Theres a lot of traps to fall in regarding how people interpret certain things. This is the fundamental core belief of Christianity.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 08:03 PM
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reply to post by SasquatchHunter
 


God also created the souls to inhabit our sacks of meat and guts. My question is/was: why send those souls to inhabit the meat sacks when we could just be created with the knowledge that He wants us to gain?

It would be more logical to go that route.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


The God of the Old Testament is not the 'Real Father of all the Heavens and our souls' but rather a usurper of mankind who created a very elaborate deception for mankind including genetically modifying us. There are multiple usurpers whom have taken over the world in a ploy for absolute dominance using Religion and Holy Books.

Once you delve inside this world and discover the cruel and ingenious plot it is difficult to view anything in the same way.

Genesis 3:8-12

"And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.

The question is who is this "God"?

Our Creator doesn't need to walk through any garden trying to find his 'creation' and then ask questions.

Could the garden have been where this 'creation' was originally petri dished? I find it interesting that 'they' made sure to leave behind thousands of cuneiform tablets revealing themselves dating back to some 7500/8000 years.

Annuna-Ki - "those who came to Earth from the sky/heavens”, the “ki” standing for Earth."

So what does Orion have to do with this and the Hebrews and the Old Testament god?
edit on 18-11-2013 by Egyptia because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 10:02 PM
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superman2012
reply to post by SasquatchHunter
 


God also created the souls to inhabit our sacks of meat and guts. My question is/was: why send those souls to inhabit the meat sacks when we could just be created with the knowledge that He wants us to gain?

It would be more logical to go that route.

I was addressing your question. Let me try again... Going by the Bible.
When we were created us meatsacks had the knowledge of God we werent separate from him in the garden of Eden. We also had freewill the thing that separates us from other creations.

Man rejected God by disobeying him of our own freewill and going our own way unleashing sin into the world. God left us at this point. At this point we are no longer physically immortal beings, in speration from God. Souls are a piece of God they are eternal and never ending just like him.

Now he could just beam this knowledge into us or whatever sci fi supernatural way you want to imagine it.
This would be destroying freewill. We are then by default servants of God just like the other supernatural creations before us.

The solution that God has provided, not man is the story of Jesus. We are born separated from God since the fall of man, this was our choice! The soul is there but it is still your choice to accept it, activate it however you want to say it.

That soul is the gift of a piece of God, the fruit of eternal life. The reconciliation of choosing a different fruit in the garden of Eden. Eating this fruit, is accepting Gods gift. Not eating this fruit is making the wrong choice again and rejecting God.

You will never exist in the precense of God, choosing the path of humanity and rejecting God. This is your own choice and your own freewill. Your physicsl body and your thoughts belong to you. The soul belongs to God. If you accept that soul you become a servant of God because you are no longer seperated. It is still your choice. You are not a robot for God.

All of these are just human concepts. If you don't allow words to scare you. The message is clear.

edit on 43pm43q000000pm302013-11-18T22:21:43-06:001010 by SasquatchHunter because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 10:17 PM
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Old Testament is the thing the Pharisees agree with but many of its teachings contradict the Gospels of Jesus...

Old Testament agrees more with the Talmud and the Torah which was Pharisees and now the Judaism than the Gospel.

Did not Jesus warned us against the "yeast of the Pharisees"?? Yeast means even just a tiny portion, Old Testament is probably one of their yeast. I don't read it!



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 10:48 PM
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There is a philosophical consideration known as Divine Command Theory. DCT states that an action is good and morally permissible if and only if God ordained the action as such. Conversely, an immoral action is immoral if and only if God ordained it so.

The issue with DCT is puzzling. Basically, DCT assumes the following (in allegory): God woke up one morning and decided to make some moral laws for the universe, and on that particular day he arbitrarily decided that rape is equivalent to Sin, but it didn't necessarily need be - God could have very well proclaimed rape as virtuous and good.

The seemingly arbitrary considerations of what constitutes virtue and vice made by God in this scenario open a hornet's nest of other philosophical considerations. It is well to point out here that a great deal of theologians regard DCT to be in error.

The problem at this juncture is illustrated thus: if God was not the author of ethics, then God's omnipotence is threatened. How can God be subject to laws seemingly higher than himself?

A possible answer to this dilemma may be considered by the following: It is true that God is bound by the laws of logic. Thus, God cannot create, by his magic power, square circles. A 'squircle' is a logical impossibility. To illustrate further, God cannot make married bachelors.

Thus, if God is bound by various fundamental laws of logic, why must one assume that God cannot be bound by moral laws? As can be seen, Moral Objectivity can remain true without the premise that God was the author of moral laws. In fact, the truth of moral objectivity resting on the premise that God was the author serves only to complicate the matter.

please check out the following (it's fun, really!:cheers
:
www.newworldencyclopedia.org...

xox
-kissy



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 11:23 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 

Dear superman2012,

I'm sorry my first answer wasn't satisfactory. Let me change the emphasis a little because I don't have anything very different to offer you.

"God is Love." That's either childishly simple and empty-headed, or deeply profound and touching. If one chooses the former reaction, they're admitting to a shortage of; blast, I don't even know how to describe it, but I feel it. Maybe someone can help me.

Love is not something that ripens well if it isn't shared. Love seeks Love, wants to create it. When just a man and woman are in romantic love (not the only kind, remember) they want the whole world to share in it. She flashes her engagement ring, he tells everyone, even knowing the kidding he's going to get. If the couple could have their way the whole world would join them in a dance of love, with everyone sharing their amazing feeling.

Is it hard to see God in the same way? He wants a world of love, people loving each other, He loving people, people loving Him. You just do not get love from a meat sack or a robot. You don't get "Roses are Red, Violets are Blue," from a meat sack. There is poetry, dance, beauty, in love that only creatures with souls can feel.


There are quite a few scientific studies that state and show that most of what we call "love" is due to chemical reactions meant for procreation and for our species to breed and multiply.
I have a secret to let out, don't tell anyone, this is tippy-top Secret. There is a member on ATS whom I love in the romantic sense. I have never met, and probably will never meet, her. Forget procreation, the 1952 in my name should tell you something. It's a different kind of love, or maybe it's not, but it's there.

You love your children, but you have no plans to have sex with them. I love my mother, she turned 92 this year. C.S. Lewis wrote about it in a book called The Four Loves. He's probably least famous for dying on the same day of the same year that JFK died.

We have souls and we're on this rock to LOVE. Nobody can do it for us, we have to do it. That's why I feel sorry for the haters, the ones who refuse to love either God or their fellow man. We've got one job to do and they're blowing it.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 11:23 PM
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Somehow a law that requires you "Thou Shall not Murder" makes the old testament God evil.People cherry pick the bible so much it is ridiculous.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

Dear Akragon,

You are invaluable! No wonder you are universally loved. When I make a mistake or am unclear, Akragon "The Scalpel," comes to set it right. (No, I haven't forgotten your secret nickname, but I won't use it as long as you keep the cookie shipments current.) This time, I think it was a lack of clarity on my part, thanks for catching it.

Jesus did know where He was going, He prophesied it at least three times in the Gospels. Rather than give you one of my awkward analogies, I'll tell you what I think happened. Up until the time He was on the cross, He knew what was going to happen. Then, somehow, he was completely separated from God. I can almost hear Him saying "Hey! What's going on here? Who turned out the lights?" and similar exclamations of astonishment.

I think, at that moment, he bore His greatest suffering. A time when God, who was always with Him, suddenly wasn't. Did He know, even then, that He was going to Heaven? I don't know. But if the certainty ever left His mind, that was when it happened.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 11:53 PM
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windword
Also, God told the Israelites "Thou Shall Not Kill", then proceeded to order them to kill people of the other cities, because they didn't worship him, and to kill their own kin for various other transgressions.

The translation of thou shalt not kill is translated more accurately to murder as in unlawful killing in most cases.

The original word (ratsah) likely had a very deep and varied meaning to the original people that spoke it which wasn't quite the same as murder, and I imagine there is some debate about how the word should be applied in modern terms ... That said, I don't believe the original translation actually contradicts scripture as much as is claimed often.

It should (based on my study) refer to specific types of killing, not all types of killing.



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