The Old Testament God is a Bumbling, Primitive, Idiot?

Akragon
GAAAAH!!! Y

Oh didn't he now.... YOU must be born again... Sound familiar?

You do not even know that that is referencing the necessity to be born in this flesh age. We were in the prior age, and had to be born of women, this is why the angels who refused to come here through the WATERS of the Womb and become flesh were judged for their disobedience. It is a fact that some have been for ordained to be prophets and fulfill a purpose as the word speaks of those prophets were chosen from the FOUNDATION of the age and "I knew you in your mother's womb".

They could have refused, but they came through the flesh and have fulfilled that requirement to overcome.

They don't want you to believe in second or even third chances let along Millions of them... The soul does not die... it is eternal...

You obviously don't believe the bible. There is the second death at the end of the millennium which those who do not overcome and choose the path of love will be judged to perish. Only those who qualify by being of the first resurrection will not be subject to the second death.

Hebrews 9:27 is NOT talking about reincarnation.... read the entire chapter... DON'T Just take that verse and assume the writer is talking about something that isn't even being discussed... That CHAPTER is detailing how JESUS only had to die once to save man kind.... It has nothing to do with reincarnation... And it most definitely does not disprove it...

That passage is a statement of fact of man's condition which Messiah fulfilled as well.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is a declarative statement of OUR condition to die once and as Yeshua is a man, you are correct, he was only to die one time just like you and just like me.

SOOOOOOOO.... IF you plan on going to heaven, or even hope to go there when you pass from this world... YOU have already been there...

Yes, in the first age we were all there and we all chose our sides then and that is why God destroyed the age that was and created this age. So, if you want to claim that being born in the flesh is reincarnation and we die and face judgement, then I can agree with that, but having once been born in this age, we do not repeat that over and over, we die and face judgement after the millenial kingdom of 1000 years with a liable to die soul if we did not overcome in this age.

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Thank you for bringing up this verse. The "Thither" refers to where he came from before he came through his mothers womb as stated above, we were all there (thither) came here and will return there (thither). He is not returning to his mothers womb, but returning to that place he was before and waiting judgement.

I am not off topic, I am responding to those who wish to expound on the bible who teach reincarnation which is not in the bible.

The problem with this idea of reincarnation is there is no need for salvation because we have to keep coming here over and over to work out our own path. It negates the fact that we need a savior, and that is exactly what Lucifer wants us to believe. It encourages us to disregard sin, God's law, and many are drawn away because it gives us the excuse to do whatever we want with no care about consequences ultimately.

reply to post by Akragon


Akra

My friend, that's the whole problem, not looking at the whole picture. You see a smile without a cat.

I like goofing on your signature, because it gives something to work with in your philosophical stance. I noticed your Cheshire Cat, and I think you kind of fancy yourself as a Lewis Carroll kind of thinker. I think also sometimes you might think you are the walrus.

I see sometimes you grinning like the Cheshire Cat when you post things. But I ask this sincerely, because I like Alice in Wonderland, as you look into the scry (metaphorical) mirror and see the fantastical mystical world of brilliant madness, why do you think you have to come back again to play the chess game again after the Queen has pronounced "off with their heads"?

Oddly, the system is not letting me reply to charles, so i will try this in the general reply button:

You do not even know that that is referencing the necessity to be born in this flesh age. We were in the prior age, and had to be born of women, (born of water and the spirit) this is why the angels who refused to come here through the WATERS of the Womb and become flesh were judged for their disobedience. It is a fact that some have been for ordained to be prophets and fulfill a purpose as the word speaks of those prophets were chosen from the FOUNDATION of the age and "I knew you in your mother's womb".

They could have refused, but they came through the flesh and have fulfilled that requirement to overcome.

They don't want you to believe in second or even third chances let along Millions of them... The soul does not die... it is eternal...

You obviously don't believe the bible. There is the second death at the end of the millennium which those who do not overcome and choose the path of love will be judged to perish. Only those who qualify by being of the first resurrection will not be subject to the second death.



[

Hebrews 9:27 is NOT talking about reincarnation.... read the entire chapter... DON'T Just take that verse and assume the writer is talking about something that isn't even being discussed... That CHAPTER is detailing how JESUS only had to die once to save man kind.... It has nothing to do with reincarnation... And it most definitely does not disprove it...

That passage is a statement of fact of man's condition which Messiah fulfilled as well.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is a declarative statement of OUR condition to die once and as Yeshua is a man, you are correct, he was only to die one time just like you and just like me.

SOOOOOOOO.... IF you plan on going to heaven, or even hope to go there when you pass from this world... YOU have already been there...

Yes, in the first age we were all there and we all chose our sides then and that is why God destroyed the age that was and created this age. So, if you want to claim that being born in the flesh is reincarnation and we die and face judgement, then I can agree with that, but having once been born in this age, we do not repeat that over and over, we die and face judgement after the millenial kingdom of 1000 years with a liable to die soul if we did not overcome in this age.

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Thank you for bringing up this verse. The "Thither" refers to where he came from before he came through his mothers womb as stated above, we were all there (thither) came here and will return there (thither). He is not returning to his mothers womb, but returning to that place he was before and waiting judgement.

I am not off topic, I am responding to those who wish to expound on the bible who teach reincarnation which is not in the bible.

The problem with this idea of reincarnation is there is no need for salvation because we have to keep coming here over and over to work out our own path. It negates the fact that we need a savior, and that is exactly what Lucifer wants us to believe. It encourages us to disregard sin, God's law, and many are drawn away because it gives us the excuse to do whatever we want with no care about consequences ultimately.

edit on 20-11-2013 by UnifiedSerenity because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-11-2013 by UnifiedSerenity because: (no reason given)

Yes, in the first age we were all there and we all chose our sides then and that is why God destroyed the age that was and created this age. So, if you want to claim that being born in the flesh is reincarnation and we die and face judgement, then I can agree with that, but having once been born in this age, we do not repeat that over and over, we die and face judgement after the millenial kingdom of 1000 years with a liable to die soul if we did not overcome in this age.

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Thank you for bringing up this verse. The "Thither" refers to where he came from before he came through his mothers womb as stated above, we were all there (thither) came here and will return there (thither). He is not returning to his mothers womb, but returning to that place he was before and waiting judgement.

I am not off topic, I am responding to those who wish to expound on the bible who teach reincarnation which is not in the bible.

The problem with this idea of reincarnation is there is no need for salvation because we have to keep coming here over and over to work out our own path. It negates the fact that we need a savior, and that is exactly what Lucifer wants us to believe. It encourages us to disregard sin, God's law, and many are drawn away because it gives us the excuse to do whatever we want with no care about consequences ultimately.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


What if it is like this, suppose reincarnation isn't going from body to body, and the judgment is coming back body to body until you do recognize atonement?

I don't know about purgatory, we haven't met anyone who came back from that either, but suppose reincarnation is like purgatory?

I would be lying if I said that spirits don't walk on this planet, because they do. I can't deny that. But there was a time when Christianity didn't believe that, because the Protestant Reformation wiped away purgatory in place of a swift and harsh judgment. But I would like to think this, that people who have done terrible things, are made to come back and see the damage they had done in life, with the full knowledge given to them and now they can understand and feel the pain inflicted upon others.

I think they have been given to see that. So I don't think reincarnation is as we think, because reincarnation was basically described by people. But can we challenge the claims of people who say they have been? I don't know, maybe for them, reincarnation is a type of judgement.

And maybe not all people will be judged with that, and since we aren't the masters of the judgement, then we can't say how it is to be administered or executed.

But I think if we use the Bible for giving the answers from, then surely we must understand the Jewish perspective of which the Bible was written in. Unfortunately, many Christians are unable to reconcile that. So, if we use the Bible, then we should offer the cultural context in which it was written.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Akragon already did a pretty good job of showing you that the concept of reincarnation is supported by Biblical scripture and by the teachings of Jesus. Not wanting to stray off topic, I'll just briefly add:

John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Those who have been born in the spirit are free as the wind, to incarnate or not. Do you really think that the saints are sitting in Paradise sipping on Pina Coladas while the world goes to Hell in a handbag? There is work to be done and "Heaven and Earth" have NOT yet passed away.

The "Born Again" are not asleep in their graves, waiting for a sounding trumpet and a kiss from the bridegroom, like Sleeping Beauty. They are endowed with eternal life, as Jesus promised.

I don't believe that a soul is created from sexual intercourse. I believe the soul is eternal and that we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.

I did a thread on the roots of reincarnation in the early church. Feel free to peruse it.

Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Unfortunately from what I see in your posts... You are hopelessly entangled in the web of lies spun by the preachers of your religion...

Believe what you will... but I have no time for your mentality

WarminIndy

But I think if we use the Bible for giving the answers from, then surely we must understand the Jewish perspective of which the Bible was written in. Unfortunately, many Christians are unable to reconcile that. So, if we use the Bible, then we should offer the cultural context in which it was written.

We can guess all we want and make up ideas of things, but I go by the written word (Logos) of God. I do think it is important to understand idioms and culture in which something is written, hence why the understanding of the eye of the needle is very important to get what Yeshua is saying about a rich man getting into heaven. If you don't understand that reference pm me and I will direct you to an article I wrote on my blog about it.

The danger in studying Jewish teachings is to know if you are reading just Torah / Tanach exposition or sayings and kabbalah which is an amalgam of Babylonian religion with Judaism. One can strain a gnat and miss the whole point which was what Jesus was trying to fix. The sayings of the rabbi's had put many false laws into place, and it was those laws Jesus was destroying, not the Law of God.

If the Law said to not work on Sabbath they took it to the enth degree. They did not make a fire and today some wont turn on a light switch because it causes a spark! That is not the spirit of the law. The law was to not focus on our money making labors but to focus on God and be together in God as a community honoring God on the sabbath. Life what the key, and not strict obedience. You wouldn't let your donkey die of thirst on the Sabbath, but they would let a woman stay unhealed?

Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk 13:17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.


The teaching on reincarnation negates the necessity of Yeshua saving us. It goes against so many passages in the bible which point to living then dying and going to God for judgement. It encourages new age old Babylonian teachings that Jesus warned us of.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Akra

My friend, that's the whole problem, not looking at the whole picture. You see a smile without a cat

Like this?

I like goofing on your signature, because it gives something to work with in your philosophical stance. I noticed your Cheshire Cat, and I think you kind of fancy yourself as a Lewis Carroll kind of thinker. I think also sometimes you might think you are the walrus.

Perhaps i'll just say goo goo g'joob goo goo g'joob... and I have no idea who Lewis Carroll is

I see sometimes you grinning like the Cheshire Cat when you post things. But I ask this sincerely, because I like Alice in Wonderland, as you look into the scry (metaphorical) mirror and see the fantastical mystical world of brilliant madness, why do you think you have to come back again to play the chess game again after the Queen has pronounced "off with their heads"?

You seem to think im not serious when I post in these threads.... I assure you i'm very serious about my beliefs... Though I do enjoy injecting a bit of humour in my posts... IF we can't laugh about these things... what is the point considering we really have no idea about anything...

Oh... and by the way... the kings and queens of this realm have no power over me...

and my head is detachable....... See?

Can you stand on your head?

Akragon
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

Unfortunately from what I see in your posts... You are hopelessly entangled in the web of lies spun by the preachers of your religion...

Believe what you will... but I have no time for your mentality

That is fine, you can disregard what I have shared from the bible, and scoff and I am not surprised on bit:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Just pointing out the facts brother... I've delt with hundreds of CHristians that love to post pages of Scripture over and over in these threads... as if it means anything

Im not scoffing at you... Just stating quite bluntly

Believe whatever you like... Talking with Christians like yourself is like punching a rock...

No matter what I say I won't make a dent... so its pointless

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


May I ask a silly question? And please, don't think this is any way dismissive of you.

I noticed in your post reply that you say Yeshua and Jesus. Why do you feel that you should say Yeshua? I only ask this in curiosity.

I don't read the Sephirot, I know what it is, I know what it looks like, but you know, it's like anything else, people sat around pre-ATS and wanted to find some mystical meaning for their worldview. While I offered to say the cultural context, you then offered something about Kabbhala. That's not the original cultural reference the Bible was written in, Kabbhala came in the Middle-Ages.

I am going to say this, we would be very naive if we thought God only revealed Himself to this small group of people. What people have accused the Jews of is that they claim God only came to them, no, they do not say that. They believe in being chosen only because they chose to follow the God revealed to Moses, and it is a mutual agreement between them.

In their view of God being a husband, it is because of all the people that God had revealed Himself to, this group chose to be in a relationship with Him, in covenant agreement. And that's how you should approach the cultural context, aside from Middle Ages mystic groups.

reply to post by windword

Those who have been born in the spirit are free as the wind, to incarnate or not. Do you really think that the saints are sitting in Paradise sipping on Pina Coladas while the world goes to Hell in a handbag?

Amazingly enough they believe Abraham, Moses and Jacob are still alive even though they were sinners of the worst kind... Yet Jesus had not incarnated yet to "save them"

Christianity is by far the most confused of all religions... but at least they do have Jesus

IF they'd only pay attention to his words...

reply to post by Akragon



Akra

I know you are serious about what you believe, but humor is always good.

And Akra, friend, Lewis Carrol wrote Through The Looking Glass or Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

Did I scoop you on something....

We're all mad here

was written by Lewis Carroll.

WarminIndy
reply to post by Akragon

 

Akra

I know you are serious about what you believe, but humor is always good.

And Akra, friend, Lewis Carrol wrote Through The Looking Glass or Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

Did I scoop you on something....

We're all mad here

was written by Lewis Carroll.

edit on 11/20/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

haha OH!!

I think I did know that actually... Just forgot the name...

Thanks for the reminder

reply to post by WarminIndy


I am a messianic believer and not as most would say a Christian. I am very comfortable using the name he was actually called. I am not one who teaches that you can only use that name. I am still comfortable with Jesus and will interchange them in my writings so people who are not aware of his real name do not get confused when I use "Yeshua".

Kabbalah came into their path while they were in Babylon. The history of Kabbalah is quite clear where they got this from and it did not start in the middle ages as you say, but much earlier. It is also part of the Egyptian magic system. It's very old and again, not from the middle ages.

Akragon
reply to post by windword

 

Those who have been born in the spirit are free as the wind, to incarnate or not. Do you really think that the saints are sitting in Paradise sipping on Pina Coladas while the world goes to Hell in a handbag?

Amazingly enough they believe Abraham, Moses and Jacob are still alive even though they were sinners of the worst kind... Yet Jesus had not incarnated yet to "save them"

Christianity is by far the most confused of all religions... but at least they do have Jesus

IF they'd only pay attention to his words...

edit on 20-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

This Christian does pay attention to His words.

But Akra, you have to consider this, Christians are just now beginning to believe in ghosts again. They didn't believe it for a very long time, and if you ask most mainstream Christians about ghosts, they don't want to talk about it. As you know, I'm not a mainstream Christian.

Give them time, they will get there. That John Calvin really did a number on Christianity. He made some Christians think that only they were predestined. And some Christians believe it.

But the fiery God of quick and severe punishment preached by Puritanism had no room for love and mercy. Cotton Mather preached it from the pulpit and a group of girls accused innocent women and men of being witches that were hung. We don't really know these girls' mental states, but they were psychologically pressured under that harsh system.

What most critics of Christianity then think is that all Christians are Puritans and believe in that harsh God, but throughout the OT, people don't read the parts that God says "I desire mercy" and "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" and "with great lovingkindness" The OT has mercy and grace spoken in many places. And another thing, people don't preach about the cities of refuge also allowed under the law. If someone were to break a law, they could go to a city of refuge until their trial. And their trials, according to the law, could not just be a kangaroo court, the person accused had to have three witnesses and those witnesses had to be of good moral character.

So stonings just didn't happen willynilly. But by the time Jesus had come, those men had taken a puritanical view and were violating the law of how trials were to be performed. That's why the woman caught in adultery was charged, they didn't accuse the man and Jesus caught this, when He said "Woman, where are your accusers?" When she looked around and saw no one, then Jesus could not violate the law of judgment when He said "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more" In other words, just don't do it again. Don't we say that to friends when they do things?

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


OK, you are not a Sacred Namer.

Jewish mysticism of Kabbalha began in the 12th Century but some schools say the esoteric tradition was the blueprint before all religions. The Sephirot, that I mentioned, did not appear before the 12th Century. It came solely out of Jewish philosophy.

If you want to say it came out of Egyptian, then you may do so. But as a Messianic, were you Jewish before this? Or did you just find a Messianic church that you began to attend?

reply to post by WarminIndy


Well again if they read the gospels instead of listening to their preachers they would have always believed in "ghosts"

What did his followers say when they saw Jesus walking across the water in the distance?

lets take a look....

46 And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.

47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land.

48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

So the belief in Ghosts or spirits has always been there... until preachers came along and dismissed it...

The biggest issue with the OT is that people once again... listen to what preachers tell them... these people will NEVER show you the bad things the OT God did... Nor will they ever say anything that might cause doubt.

They strictly avoid all passages that contradict Jesus... and only point towards the prophecy and they bright yummy things the so called "god" of the OT did...

The OT god says he has mercy... he says he is loving and generous... but the words within the book betray that concept.

And speaking of stonings.... Did Stephen have a fair trial?

Why don't you ask Paul?

Of course they are Christians who read the 2nd book of the Bible and do not connect the dots that it is a money making scam are obviously so blind they must be mentally unwell.
BTW the bit where you have to give half a shekel to god...rich or poor.