The Old Testament God is a Bumbling, Primitive, Idiot?

Akragon
Im not sure IF i'd call the OT God a bumbling idiot...

I'm not sure IF i'd call the OT God ... God.
Seriously .. how much of what God said in the OT is really God saying it?
Or is it people claiming to speak for God in order to further their own agenda?

There is probably some of God in the OT and there is probably a whole lot that isn't God.
The difficulty is figuring out which is which .... IMHO

FlyersFan

Akragon
Im not sure IF i'd call the OT God a bumbling idiot...

I'm not sure IF i'd call the OT God ... God.
Seriously .. how much of what God said in the OT is really God saying it?
Or is it people claiming to speak for God in order to further their own agenda?

There is probably some of God in the OT and there is probably a whole lot that isn't God.
The difficulty is figuring out which is which .... IMHO

I agree actually...

The problem is that people try to mix the messages of Jesus with what is in the OT... which are hardly compatible!

Then to top that off, they make up this elaborate dance using 10 different books to justify the correlation... Which is not only completely dishonest... but just messed up in some cases.

One member here even goes so far as to claim Jesus is the "Torah made flesh" which just blows my mind.

Christians that are completely wrapped up in what they're taught without actually looking into the details drive me nuts!!

and the worst part is.... my Girlfriend is one of them *cries*

reply to post by WarminIndy

Do you think the God of the Bible wasn't concerned with murder when He said "Thou shalt not kill"? And war, that was life back then, there wasn't such a thing as living in peace.

Didn't Moses commit a crime when he murdered the Egyptian guard? Murder was already illegal in Egypt. People already knew rampant murder was not conducive to a civil society. Did God, the creator of the universe, really give the 10 Commandments, or were they merely a stylized copy of the portions of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, passed on by Moses? Was Moses even a real person? Did the exodus even really happen as the Bible says?

Did the God of the creation the of the universe condon property ownership and slavery? I don't think so. These are laws that were given by men and enforced by men. No more, no less.

I don't think that God, the force of unity and consciousness within the universe, has any concern whatsoever over civil laws here on earth or anywhere else in the universe. Societal laws are a product of evolution of a civil society, of people who are in agreement with certain ways of productive survival.

The invention of dynamite has nothing to do with God's leadership in human conflict, it has everything to do with human ingenuity.

To think that "GOD" needed to impose spoken and written "laws" to get people to cooperate and live together, and instructed these people to war against societies that were already inhabiting "promised" lands, tells me that this God of the Bible was NOT all powerful and not in control.

FlyersFan

Akragon
Im not sure IF i'd call the OT God a bumbling idiot...

I'm not sure IF i'd call the OT God ... God.
Seriously .. how much of what God said in the OT is really God saying it?
Or is it people claiming to speak for God in order to further their own agenda?

There is probably some of God in the OT and there is probably a whole lot that isn't God.
The difficulty is figuring out which is which .... IMHO

Well, an interesting thing is that there does seem to be two. One was Yaweh and the other was El. This had led to the whole debate from Yawhists vs. Elohists.

When the Bible says "God created the heaven and the earth" it said "Elohim". But Moses was told that I AM, or Yaweh to make the laws. In the Bible there are two different views of this. Until this debate is finished, I can't be compelled to say Yaweh or El. So I say neither.

Elohist In The Bible

I think it is very evident in their names alone what side they were on. For instance, who was Zerub-bab-el or Zeruba-ba'al? This is very important to understand, as names were contractual, meaning it depends on where the hyphen is, means a different thing altogether.

The Bible says Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchi-Zedeck. That priest was of El Elyon. Melchi means king, but it also means messenger as in Malachi. The Hebrew didn't use hyphens, that was later by the English translators. And if a hyphen is in the wrong place....a different meaning.

So you can see how it convolutes everything, when a person doesn't know that Hebrew didn't have hyphens. let's look at Elijah...which means "God is my God", seeing both names in there, is El God or is Jah(Yah) God?

Yashua means "God is my salvation" So that is Yaweh. But the given name is actually Emmanu-EL. So we then have to ask ourselves, if the name given was from God, Emmanuel, then is El God? But no one calls Him Emmanuel, we call Him Jesus, or Yah-shua. That's a tough one.

Why don't we call Him Emmanu-El? I think maybe someone liked Yah-shua better, in my opinion.

reply to post by WarminIndy


So this is how you describe psychology?

Full Definition of ESOTERIC

1
a : designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone
b : requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group ; broadly : difficult to understand

Not to mention that you have yet again ignored the biology we share with other animals. I don't know what's so difficult to grasp about our primitive heritage. Tigers and bears and squirrels have the same organs and anatomy that we do. Four appendages, lungs, brain, spine, teeth, stomach...we have the same needs and the same urges. It's just common sense. Apparently, your definition of 'human' doesn't concern our physicality, but our emotional flexibility and scope.

Talk about esoteric.

reply to post by windword


Yes, Moses did commit a crime. But was it not a crime to beat a Hebrew in Egypt? No, Egyptian law did not forbid that. And that's why Moses ran away.

But what do you think, is it the Book of the Dead?

Do you have any sources relating to Hebrews putting coins on their eyes to pay the boatman?

Yes, Moses was real, the Exodus was real as well. They have been celebrating Passover since then as well as all the feast days and keeping the Sabbath. They are still kosher, well most of them are kosher.

But what comparisons of Torah and Book of the Dead can you find?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

So this is how you describe psychology?

Full Definition of ESOTERIC

1
a : designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone
b : requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group ; broadly : difficult to understand

Not to mention that you have yet again ignored the biology we share with other animals. I don't know what's so difficult to grasp about our primitive heritage. Tigers and bears and squirrels have the same organs and anatomy that we do. Four appendages, lungs, brain, spine, teeth, stomach...we have the same needs and the same urges. It's just common sense. Apparently, your definition of 'human' doesn't concern our physicality, but our emotional flexibility and scope.

Talk about esoteric.

edit on 21-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Again, argue the psychology point with those with a degree. They told you exactly what I said and yet you disagree with me, even though I quoted them. Are you ignoring Wildtimes?

But do you have four stomachs like a cow? Do you have a gizzard like a chicken? Weren't they adapted, as you would think, for those things?

And yet you are attempting to eventually get to the "embryonic gill holes" that even biologists are admitting was wrong. But that's the pictures you saw in your biology book.

Even when they admit it, you can't grasp that it was wrong. So challenge the biology professors who still point to the pictures, knowing they are lying to you.

Please, before we argue evolution, explain to me how I have 2.9% Neanderthal, when at one time biologists said it was impossible, until a DNA test proved them wrong. Until you confess their retraction, I don't think you should bring biology into the discussion.

reply to post by charles1952


I bet you haven't even read the Old Testament. Cherry picking verses does nothing but prove your ignorance.

Repent of your blasphemy Charles or you will be crushed like powder on judgement day for your wickedness and pride.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration

Repent of your blasphemy Charles or you will be crushed like powder on judgement day for your wickedness and pride.

Wow.

Are you GOD?

Did you get crowned the decider of who will be crushed like powder on judgment day?

I'm really surprised, but then again....no, I'm not, because that is how YOUR God behaves. Charles is a jewel of a human being.
What are you?

reply to post by WarminIndy

The Book of the Dead originates at least from 2600 BCE with many versions following. They contain instructions for life after death, a sort of manual. The Hebrew version (10 commandments) originates also IN Egypt (1490 BCE Hebrew exodus from Egypt).
- the main difference is that the Hebrew version is shorter, the 42 gods are replaced by 1 god and the sabbath has been added. This version has been passed on to the Christain community totally disregarding the fact that they took a selective chapter out of the book of death. It is a good management summary for a small set of people endulged in a thousands of year old civilization.

“Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . . I have not reviled the God. I have not laid violent hands on an orphan. I have not done what the God abominates . . . I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer. I have not caused anyone’s suffering . . . I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste. I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields. I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance. I have not taken milk from a child’s mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage… I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water. I have not quenched a fire in its time . . . I have not kept cattle away from the God’s property. I have not blocked the God at his processions. “

edward.de.leau.net...

reply to post by WarminIndy

Are you ignoring Wildtimes?

No, he's not 'ignoring' me.

We are animals, Indy. We are mammals. We happen to have a 'gift' of intellect, to be able to invent things to make our lives 'more comfortable'....

"Why", I don't know. But just because we build roads and have light 24/7 does not mean that we are anything but "created", the same as the animals. We still have animal instincts. We don't KNOW what elephants or dolphins or whales are capable of, because they (wisely) keep their distance.

But when I see a vid of a dolphin (a WILD dolphin) approaching a diver for help in removing a fishing line and hook from its fin, I see MUCH MORE than 'a stupid beast' who is not an entity. I see a MAMMAL, approaching another MAMMAL for help. When I see a vid of a dog stopping a baby from crawling into the surf; or sniffing out an abandoned newborn and alerting 'people' about it; I KNOW that animals are NOT beneath us.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


Did you even read the OP? Follow the thread before posting? Perhaps, you should considered removing the log from your own eye before you criticize the speck in your brother's.

wildtimes
reply to post by RevelationGeneration

 

Repent of your blasphemy Charles or you will be crushed like powder on judgement day for your wickedness and pride.

Wow.

Are you GOD?

Did you get crowned the decider of who will be crushed like powder on judgment day?

I'm really surprised, but then again....no, I'm not, because that is how YOUR God behaves. Charles is a jewel of a human being.
What are you?

Don't be shocked wild.. RevGen is a classic ATS christian Fanatic... We've had many battles

He used to be a regular here but now he only pops on now and again to spout off hellfire and condem a few poor souls... If anything take pity on him.... He makes our fanatic Friend on this thread look like an agnostic



Just take a look at his sig....

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Apparently, your definition of 'human' doesn't concern our physicality, but our emotional flexibility and scope.

I have seen photos of elephants crying. I have seen horses and dogs moping after a companion dies. I have seen cats bring home 'contributions' to the household (live birds, snakes, dead moles). I have been present at births of litters, of foals....I have been ecstatically greeted by my dog who is always concerned that "everyone be in the den."

I have cleaned up messes that were left deliberately in through-ways, or had to discard shoes or other items, that were destroyed out of anger or frustration.

Animals are sentient creatures (mammals and birds, at least). They have souls. They UNDERSTAND US, more than we give them credit for.

I believe this in every cell of my being. I live with them. I know them.

reply to post by Akragon

He used to be a regular here but now he only pops on now and again to spout of hellfire and condem a few poor souls... If anything take pity on him.... He makes our fanatic
Friend on this thread look like an agnostic

Oh, I know. I know. I thought he'd left long ago. Had no clue he was still lurking, waiting to pounce.

No worries - was just surprised to see him resurface. (Like some of them do).

As a Christian I dont celebrate Christmas, nor Easter, nor birthdays..nor any other holiday. To me all days are the same day...none above another. And they all belong to my Lord for they are His creation.

The significance of My Lord Jesus the Christ for Remission of sins is His death..for whom He shed his blood in Remission of sins. Not His birth...but His death, burial and reserruction.

I began to think about this after reading Alexander Hislop's book "The Two Babylons" concering the origins of many of our holidays today. I believe more people would be astonished to discover the origins of todays holidays.

I decided to give them all up ..and not participate..but keep one day as another and always with a view to He who shed His Blood for me. 24/7.


However...an interesting sidelight occurred to me over the years of understanding this history and what is means to the Believer who knows it's significance.

I have discovered that even in His disapproval..God has a sense of Humor.

For we have today going on amongst us..Atheists...fighting feverently, zealously, and emotionally to stop a man made tradition..a holilday called Christmas.

And on the other hand we have.."Christians" fighting to keep a man made tradition feverently and emotionally..zealously "Christmas."


For what do we know about the traditions of men from the Bible??:

Also think about this one...
There is no instruction in the Bible for Believers, both Olde and New Testaments, to observe a birthday..it does not exist. This simply because all glory and praise is to go to God every day..all day..not to men. And birthdays are a day of self glorification...and holding a day above another.

I struggled with this for alot of years before it occurred to me that God has a sense of humor. We have two uninformed and uneducated groups fighting to keep or stop the same man made tradition or holiday. How ironic. God does indeed have a sense of Humor.

I chuckle to myself every year about this time when the Atheists make the papers about trying to stop Christmas celebrations and then the Christians fighting back. LOL LOL LOL.

God has a sense of Humor.

Thanks,
Orangetom

By the way..this knowledge also made me think on the understanding of how much modern, educated, enlightened, illuminated men got backwards by bumbling around with a partial education and partial thinking..including todays "Christians."

reply to post by wildtimes


But that means we're animals too.

wildtimes
reply to post by Akragon

 

He used to be a regular here but now he only pops on now and again to spout of hellfire and condem a few poor souls... If anything take pity on him.... He makes our fanatic
Friend on this thread look like an agnostic

Oh, I know. I know. I thought he'd left long ago. Had no clue he was still lurking, waiting to pounce.

No worries - was just surprised to see him resurface. (Like some of them do).

Charles1952 is awesome great.

The other day another Christian jumped on me, telling me and FlyersFan that we aren't Christians either...

Windword, (love windword BTW) defended me. I think we are becoming family on here, maybe a little?

Even AfterInfinity and I might disagree, at least we haven't condemned each other to hell or the great beyond. RevelationGeneration...that's the clue in their name about what they think.

Maybe RevGen is a latter day saint?? And I didn't mean Mormon. That's basically what Revelation Generation is, latter day saints because the end is upon us....

He might not understand that the end was today for some people and for others it was the beginning, unless you reincarnated then today was the day you just recycled.

I think Catholics at least get the last confession thing, at least they get to go out confessing. If that helps them, then who are we to say it was wrong?

reply to post by RevelationGeneration

I hope you are being sarcastic ....

You telling someone that they are going to hell because of 'wickedness and PRIDE' ...
that's pretty dang judgmental and PRIDEFUL of you - putting yourself in God's shoes
and daring to judge another persons soul.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

But that means we're animals too.

Yes, of course it does.
I never said we weren't. That was Indy. I KNOW we are animals....