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The Old Testament God is a Bumbling, Primitive, Idiot?

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posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Do you believe the planet earth existed before you were born and will it be here after you die? Your believing in planet earth has no bearing on its existence either. It was here before you, it is here presently and it will be here after you die. Logic then dictates that your belief in planet earth makes no difference to its existence.


My point exactly. Would your god still exist after all of its believers died? Or would it die along with their belief in it? If your god is a distinct, independent entity, it would be forced to reveal itself or be forced to forfeit our world. How else does it replenish its stock of believers?
edit on 22-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 11:16 AM
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RevelationGeneration
reply to post by charles1952
 


Charles1952 I made a mistake. I reacted to the title without reading the first post.

May God richly bless you and sorry if I caused offense.

~RG~


wh.... what? O.o

That was unexpected... You've learned something while you were gone i see...

Im slightly impressed...



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 11:28 AM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Do you believe the planet earth existed before you were born and will it be here after you die? Your believing in planet earth has no bearing on its existence either. It was here before you, it is here presently and it will be here after you die. Logic then dictates that your belief in planet earth makes no difference to its existence.


My point exactly. Would your god still exist after all of its believers died? Or would it die along with their belief in it? If your god is a distinct, independent entity, it would be forced to reveal itself or be forced to forfeit our world. How else does it replenish its stock of believers?
edit on 22-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


Yes, God would still exist whether or not I am here or whether or not I believe in Him.

And what would make you think He would have to force belief? If you have the choice to believe or not, which atheism is a choice, is it not? Just because one chooses to believe or not believe does not change anything at all. So did God die because the atheists don't believe? If the atheists have a choice, then that implies in itself there is something to choose from.

And if atheists chose, then that means they considered the choice. So atheism in itself is implication of an existence. If there was nothing, then the choice wouldn't be possible.



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



And what would make you think He would have to force belief? If you have the choice to believe or not, which atheism is a choice, is it not? Just because one chooses to believe or not believe does not change anything at all. So did God die because the atheists don't believe? If the atheists have a choice, then that implies in itself there is something to choose from.


Why do you so consistently miss my points? If your god is an invention of mankind, then should everyone who believes die, he would die with them. But so long as those who believe continue to do so without reason, he will never show himself because we've been lenient.

One could infer that it's the Christians' faults that atheists exist.


And if atheists chose, then that means they considered the choice. So atheism in itself is implication of an existence. If there was nothing, then the choice wouldn't be possible.


Kinda like Santa Claus, right?
edit on 22-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 12:05 PM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



And what would make you think He would have to force belief? If you have the choice to believe or not, which atheism is a choice, is it not? Just because one chooses to believe or not believe does not change anything at all. So did God die because the atheists don't believe? If the atheists have a choice, then that implies in itself there is something to choose from.


Why do you so consistently miss my points? If your god is an invention of mankind, then should everyone who believes die, he would die with them. But so long as those who believe continue to do so without reason, he will never show himself because we've been lenient.

One could infer that it's the Christians' faults that atheists exist.


And if atheists chose, then that means they considered the choice. So atheism in itself is implication of an existence. If there was nothing, then the choice wouldn't be possible.


Kinda like Santa Claus, right?
edit on 22-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


Yes, exactly.

I don't miss your points. That's why I am replying to your points. Perhaps I need to speak another language...

AfterInfinity :


IF your god is an invention of mankind,


WarminIndy : If??? So God might not be an invention, right?

But as you think that for God to exist only for those who believe in His existence, then God should die because the person dies...the point I am making is that God is eternally existent. That is something not dependent on me, myself and I. The universe exists and that is simply the way it is.

No human machinations invented the natural or the spiritual. My own machination didn't create my existence either, it was independent of me as well. You could say "we are along for the ride".



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 



I don't exactly appreciate the 12-step system for one very simple reason: it teaches adherents that they, by themselves, have no power and no hope.

Exactly. It relinquishes self-control to a separate "higher power."

I tried a 12-step once. People I love had tried it as well. I found it to be an offshoot of "surrender to God, you are powerless and doomed".....
in my opinion it is replacing one "addiction" (to whatever functional difficulty) with another ("get addicted to going to meetings rather than conquering your addiction to the functional difficulty).

It is degrading in many ways.

The loved ones I know who have endured 12-step programs agree that it is not really "healing" - it creates "white knuckles sobriety". THAT IS NOT HEALING. That is substituting one fanatical behavior for another.



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



But as you think that for God to exist only for those who believe in His existence, then God should die because the person dies...the point I am making is that God is eternally existent. That is something not dependent on me, myself and I. The universe exists and that is simply the way it is.


I offer a hypothetical, you offer an ultimatum. Is it any wonder we never get anywhere?


No human machinations invented the natural or the spiritual. My own machination didn't create my existence either, it was independent of me as well. You could say "we are along for the ride".


Do you need a course in sexual education?



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



I tried a 12-step once. People I love had tried it as well. I found it to be an offshoot of "surrender to God, you are powerless and doomed".....


Exactly. Thank goodness I'm not an alcoholic. Just a smoker and a junkie for love.



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



You could say "we are along for the ride".


YES! THAT!!! ^^^

WE are along for the ride. And each of us will experience "the ride" in our own, unique, Divinely-Sparked way.

That, in my opinion, is the truth. No "book" can cater to everyone --- it's only SOME PEOPLE that insist that it is "the same for everyone."

SOME PEOPLE CLAIM THEY UNDERSTAND IT BETTER THAN OTHERS. Not true.

Sorry for the all caps - I'm too lazy to insert b and i and brackets at the moment.

Think of it as emphasis, not "yelling."

edit on 11/22/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


AfterInfinity

No matter how much sex education we have, none of us are here because of our own machinations. You didn't tell your mom and dad where and when....the time you were conceived. You had no choice in that.

So it is not OUR OWN for ourselves...

Do you know me any different than being pragmatic realist?

Maybe we don't see the same things the same way because we are so different, to begin with?



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



SOME PEOPLE CLAIM THEY UNDERSTAND IT BETTER THAN OTHERS. Not true.


Hi, guys. It just occurred to me that this statement above is not really clear as to my intent.
Too late to edit, so here is a belated correction:

Some Abrahamic Denominations/Religions Claim They Understand it Better Than Other Abrahamic OR non-Abrahamic Religions The Abefans do NOT have a monopoly on salvation.

Their notion that they do IS NOT TRUE.

There. sorry for any vagueitude earlier.
(Vaguery).

edit on 11/22/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 03:53 PM
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charles1952
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 



charles1952
I may be misunderstanding some of your writing. May I tell you what I think you're saying, then you can correct me as necessary?


Not a problem, (probably the best post Ive ever recieved was BY YOU in answering a very benign question of mine regarding the potencial similarities between the "King" Jesus and the "King" Elvis). Hilarious and so full of insight.


charles
1.) The Bible was designed to control the behavior of people.
Isn't there always something that is used to control the behavior of the people? Laws, social pressures, traditions? And I don't think it was designed to do that. The Jews could read the Old Testament, but it certainly wasn't part of a plan to control large groups of people, just one, insignificant tribe.


Yes, oh the lawlessness of the peoples in that time frame, all new beautifully illuminated manuscripts (by pious monks) to be placed secretly under the pillows of the entire Roman Senate and Caligula/Claudius; secret mind meld technique. There is always something (LAWS involving taxation etc) that needs inserting. The old testament was a guide for the Jews; yes a small diverse sect if you were to include the Essenses (not sure Id term them insignificant as they were the 'chosen'. It was that darned other; the New one that opened up debate for all others to 'witness'; experience or use as a garnish in a 'washing up process'.


charles
The New Testament is a collection of books and letters written by various people and circulated around the Christian community for quite some time. Eventually, some of those books were declared authentic, but no one wrote any at the last minute to impose government control.


That occupying forced government or more kindly 'the overlords' were very 'Lawful Pagansists" (ODD) which I find intruiging as to how they applied their system of government to a bunch of goat/sheepherders that had specific information that didnt apply to their own Greco-Roman nomenclature. The birth of the separation of 'church and state'.


charles
Indeed, the Roman government was persecuting Christians as early as 100-120 A.D. The idea that the Romans wrote the Bible to control people, then punished those who believed in it, makes no sense to me.


The Romans took another look at these missives, either saw value in them and appropriated, absconded or RAN with this 'new idea' traditional thought of One GOD as a way to control. You must see it now. The RCC has been doing it for years (confess your sins to the one in power; your priest) he gets all of the dirty gossip within the parrish/prefect for blackmail purposes). INFORMATION IS KING. The punishment happened at the behest of the Old testament Jews, the Romans 300 years later absorbed the wisdom of embracing this; through Constantine. I really dislike what Paul did going to Greece and starting the entire debacle.


charles
2.) The Bible is reaaly a collection of words, like tarot cards, and one should read into the words the answers to questions as you see fit. This notion of using the Bible as an "Oracle" would not have been considered possible by the Jews of that period. Besides, it makes little logical sense. If the Bible is poetic and malleable, and the interpretation is individualized as one sees fit, it's really pretty worthless.


I suppose not, (a tarot/oracle interpretation) unless educated; in so being would have a problem digesting the thing (bible) on their own, would take years of seminary workshops (Moody Institute time travels). I disagree with you about the value of the writing, it is at times beautiful, Psalms; the song of Solomon and Isaiah (take the God componant out of it and think with the mind of self murderer Sylvia Plath, poet ee Cummings or (injestor of secret substances) Terrence Mckenna.


charles1952
The Bible says something definite, whether it fits with our beliefs or not. Perhaps some cultural or linguistic interpretation is possible, but not, "It means what you want it to mean."


I would imagine the bible is designed to hit specific 'notes' within the broadest range of human intellectual thought (or ability of). Im not sure why you cling to an idea that it DOES NOT WAS NOT IS NOT meant to reach the widest audience possible IN ANY FORM. I am a very good example of this; not a theologian and certainly have my knock down drag outs with what is percieved to me to be "a higher being" (probably myself). What is problem with taking part and parcel those things within the text that resonate; its not an all or nothing missive; and never was meant to be so.


VHB
Two thousand years later in this time frame? its a miracle these texts are still being discussed of as if at all relevant.



charles
Exactly, that's just one of the miracles associated with God.


Not sure its a miracle as much as a money maker (who actually holds the copyright), I know the 'Urantia Book' publishers have been having many legal problems regarding this.


charles1952
You think that Jesus believes we have reshaped and blasphemed His religion? How could you know unless you relied on the Bible to see what kind of religion he had in mind? Besides, if anything's gone wrong, talk to Jesus about it. It's His own fault, He gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom and told him "Feed My Sheep."


Yes I not only think so I know so. I have to need (for biblical reference) a (new testament) to have this understanding? Jesus (himself scribing) left no words behind as reference points for a reason. Everything has gone wrong and his idea of what the 'Kingdom Is as a heaven/HAVEN for Eternal soul/spirits"' has been wharped, altered. Jesus puts it all on Paul, not Peter. Its his own fault YES!!! for not leaving his own testimony in writing, as he spoke and wrote Coptic, Hebrew and Greek small argument happening, Aramaic is introduced as well.


VHBFor me its all a great waste of time and energy; to keep you from discovering your inner truth. Machiavelian manouvre.



charles
And what in the world is my personal, inner truth? Truth is truth. Inner truth is truth, outer truth is truth. Does inner truth contradict outer truth? If so, one of them isn't truth. (And I know where I'm placing my bet.)
With respect, Charles1952


Inner truth is what rings out to you 'this is MY PERSONAL truth'. Truth is not the truth of others (it belongs to your soul respective of your individuality and growth). I do not know what an outer truth is, that which one percieves greater by others in number, and is influential enough to change or modify your/my thinking? Indoctination by self allowed consent? You tell me.
edit on 22-11-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2013 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


No, the first one was ok.

And let me tell you, sometimes I don't understand anything at all.

But what I do understand, sometimes people don't understand me. I'm humble enough to say "What?" with an eye-brow raising...

You know something, there were three things in my childhood that left the greatest impact on me, Jesus Christ Superstar The Lengend of Boggy Creek and Kung Fu. Had I never seen those three movies when I was young, I probably would never question anything at all.

Ever since my dad took us to see Jesus Christ Superstar at the drive-in and the one scene that I remembered so well into adulthood was the temple scene. I didn't know what a prostitute was, but something in that made me feel sympathy for them. Maybe at that young age I was making connections.

I did not pick up on the obvious message, but instead asked my mom "Why did those women do that?" Of all the people in the whole movie, why just that quick scene did I remember? I don't know.

I don't understand that. I am not ashamed to say I don't understand.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

Dear vethumanbeing,

I'm not trying to be mushy, but I feel a special connection to you. I'm really grateful for the time you took with your answer. I know I agree with you in some areas. Forgive me for jumping around.

Inner v. Outer Truth.

I think you've got this one down pretty well. I see an entire Universe of truth available to us. Some we don't know, and some, we may have but don't understand or can't make use of. Will you accept Inner Truth to be the truth we've recognized, accepted, and made a part of our very being? That would include the truth we've discovered for ourselves, such as the truth of the beauty of some poetry, music, or emotion.

Bible Copyrights.

Some versions of the Bible are copyrighted and some are not. A very quick check showed me that the
Bible in Basic English, King James Version, World English Bible, American Standard (1901), and the NET Bible were all free of copyright, and I'm sure there are others. One that particularly impressed me is the Catholic Public Domain Version. I'm impressed, not by the translation as I haven't read it, but by the translator's statement in putting it in the public domain. He made a point of saying that God's Word shouldn't be copyright. It's a fascinating statement, you'll find it here:
www.sacredbible.org...

On the other hand, putting together a new translation can take years of work, and hundreds of translators. They deserve to be paid. I hope some reasonable compromise can be found.

Christian persecution.

I found an interesting BBC article discussing the subject. It may not be the sort of thing most people know about.

Basically, the article recounts the furious persecution under Nero (64 A.D.), sporadic persecution for the next hundred years, then back to serious persecution from about 150 A.D. to Constantine's declaration that Christianity was legal. As you'll recall, Christianity wasn't declared the official religion until 380 A.D., well after Constantine was dead. The Council that he called, that of Nicea, didn't even address the question of what books were in the Bible

www.bbc.co.uk...

Constantine's control of the Bible and Christianity.

As you'll recall, Christianity wasn't declared the official religion until 380 A.D., well after Constantine was dead. The Council that he called, that of Nicea, didn't even address the question of what books were in the Bible. Their major concern was the Arian heresy.

Confession and Blackmail.

You say it happens regularly and is a basis for Catholic power. I hate to be blunt, but I don't believe it. The Seal of the Confessional is absolute, and breaking it is grounds for immediate, well, everything bad that you can imagine happening to a priest and a Catholic.

The Beauty of the Bible.

I agree with you, there is much beauty and poetry there. I believe it also reports events and words which have made a profound difference to the world.

Purpose of the Bible.

I think I agree with you here.

I would imagine the bible is designed to hit specific 'notes' within the broadest range of human intellectual thought (or ability of).
Not a bad accomplishment for the tribe of ancient Israelites and a handful of the Jewish lower class. But you're right. It doesn't "resonate" with everybody. Heck, it doesn't resonate with anybody the same way over time. Many Christians will tell you they've had the experience of reading a passage several times, then they get a sudden insight into it's meaning.

I do have a problem, therefore, with just discarding the parts that don't resonate. I suspect they will later, but they're there for a purpose.

The Corruption of Jesus' Religion.

I'm having trouble understanding the idea that we know the kind of religion Jesus intended, but the people He spoke to, lived with, didn't. If He was founding a religion (which I think He was), I'd think His first step was to make sure that His followers got it right. You believe that would have only happened had he written everything down. A Christian might say that He did, through the writers inspired by the Holy Spirit. He did say:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 14:26

I would think that would do it.

Anyway, if I have skipped anything or misunderstood anything, let's talk some more.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Pardon me my friend... I hope you don't mind me interupting on one point


I'm having trouble understanding the idea that we know the kind of religion Jesus intended, but the people He spoke to, lived with, didn't.


Do you happen to recall how many times in the gospels Jesus was amazed that his followers did not understand what he was talking about?

It happened quite a lot...




posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Many people were killed just for not believing in the bible. Constantine wanted HIS version of Christianity to be the one world religion.

Since he could not conquer the world with the sword, he wanted to with the cross.


Why didn't the put the gospel of thomas or the didache in the bible even though Mark, Matthew, Luke, AND John took from that source? Something to think about. ...



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 12:30 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

Dear Akragon,

Many thanks, again, for your sharp eye and mind. It's quite true that the Disciples were often baffled by His words. That speaks to me of the mental distance they had to travel from their Jewish upbringing of centuries to this new concept. It also tells me that I can feel comfortable with them. They didn't begin as mystics with all knowledge, they were normal people who reacted as many of us would.

I believe, as I might have mentioned elsewhere, that they were saved from their ignorance by three things, the explanations that Jesus provided, the occurrence of events which made them sit up and say "So, that's what He meant," and the arrival of the Holy Spirit who was to teach them all they needed to know and remind them of Jesus' words.

Akragon, you're invaluable. thank you.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 12:39 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 

Dear arpgme,

I learned a little about history tonight that I'd like to share with you. I put it in an earlier post, but it bears repeating.

Constantine wanted HIS version of Christianity to be the one world religion. Since he could not conquer the world with the sword, he wanted to with the cross.

Why didn't the put the gospel of thomas or the didache in the bible even though Mark, Matthew, Luke, AND John took from that source? Something to think about. ...


The council that Constantine called, Nicea in 325 A.D., had nothing whatever to do with deciding which books went in the Bible. He had no vote. The Bishops who did have votes (at least 250) came from all over the empire. Constantine died in 337, Christianity was not made the state religion until 380 A.D.

I think you're giving the Emperor far too much credit.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Constantine have any kids? Kids are great for finishing stuff like that.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


We're here because of sheer biology. The whole intercourse, conception, development, and birth process is all science. You choose to see significance in places that I see as entirely natural and self-perpetuating. It's science, dude.



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