A Manual For Creating Atheists

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Well, now you got the opinion. Next, you just need the hypothesis, cross-examination, mathematical analysis, peer review, and board consensus. Then you'll have something.

I won't hold my breath.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Absolutely, you turn a light switch off and on, this power seems to be generated by prayer.

I have seen many miracles by laying on of hands, to many to discount it as coincidental.

But what is answering the prayer? Do you know this for a fact?

My source has always been Jesus, or the holy spirit, and god.

Sometimes there is no prayer at all,
How do I express this, I become disconnected, for a moment, the mind silences.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

My source has always been Jesus, or the holy spirit, and god.

And how do you know this?

Sometimes there is no prayer at all,
How do I express this, I become disconnected, for a moment, the mind silences.

Dissociative disorder?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

My source has always been Jesus, or the holy spirit, and god.

And how do you know this?

Sometimes there is no prayer at all,
How do I express this, I become disconnected, for a moment, the mind silences.

Dissociative disorder?

no why?

not anything of the kind

so here I am trying to sincerely express my experience to you and you come up with this?

healings occur duing these experiences, one just recently.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Dear AfterInfinity,

If you have something to say to me, then say it. Your passive aggressive approach is not the appropriate one.

It appears I have caused offense when that was not my desire at all. Are you referring to this:

(Oh, and the "Uncorrelated Google vomit?" I feel cheated. I think AfterInfinity may have a very good mind, but it's become twisted somehow. I'd like to have a lengthy conversation with him, but it never seems to work out.)

Well, of course, anything that appears here is right out in the open. Nothing can be done behind someone's back, but if it would please you to have it addressed to you, I would be happy to comply.

Dear AfterInfinity,

The "Uncorrelated Google vomit" remark left me feeling cheated. I was hoping for a less emotional refutation of his argument. You have a very good mind, but I think it's become twisted (Witness the anger, insults, and continually demanding proof of something you know full well can't be proven.) I'd like to have a long conversation with you, but somehow, it never seems to work out.

With respect,
Charles1952

Just so that I'm saying something on topic, let me go back to the book for a moment. Remember it is written by a philosophy professor who deals with fresh young minds on a regular basis, and who is a confirmed Atheist. The book is a set of instructions for going up to simple, everyday people, who have probably never had a philosophy course. Then by using various techniques, it traps them into questioning the beliefs they held for years.

No one asks the Atheist to do this. The Atheists are perfectly willing to take away a person's hope if only to get them thinking the way the Atheist wants them to, the "right way." I haven't heard the reason why this book or "Evangelical Atheism" is necessary. Assume the Atheist is right, there is no God or any of that stuff. How does converting anyone to Atheism make them better, happier, people? But, of course, Atheism can't be proved.

One other thing I saw in a post (and AfterInfinity, I don't remember if you said or someone else did) that startled me and made me sad was a comment to the effect that Atheism meant not believing in God, and if there is a God, living without Him.

That, to me, verges on hatred carried to a level near insanity. Consider. An Atheist discovers through some method that there actually is a God. Omnipotent, omnipresent, Creator of the Universe, founder of the Church, well, you know the list. Who else but a madman could say "So, You created me, I only have existence because of You, You're the Judge of right and wrong, the Universe dances to Your tune, there is a Heaven and a Hell and You provided a way to get to Heaven, right? I'm not interested, nor do I need You, go away."

This seems to me to be spoken by someone who doesn't really care what the truth is. God is rejected whether or not He exists. If it were proven to me that there was no spiritual world, no God, Angels, or Demons, no afterlife, I would stop praying because I knew the truth. But how someone can say that nothing would change in his life after he learned he was wrong about the truth of the greatest question in the world is beyond me.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Dear Stormdancer777 (and, I suppose AfterInfinity),

The believer is in a difficult situation when it comes to prayer and the movement of the Spirit. If you'll forgive my crudity, it's a little like the marriage act. There is so much love, mutual giving, tenderness, pleasure, yes, but also a great joy. How can this be described to anyone who has never experienced it, or who has been violently raped?

To those who have experienced the things you have, you have only to say "You know what I mean," and heads will nod in agreement. To the others you can only say "I'll try, but I really can't explain it." One can't enjoy swimming from listening to great swimmers. One has to learn about it, want to do it, and get thrown into the water to actually do it for themselves. Then understanding will come, but not before.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Without wishing to intrude on your conversation with another member at all here Charles, only that in the remainder I find a couple of good points in your post. I agree regarding the proselytizing of atheism, quite disappointing for many reasons IMO. From someone who is usually regarded as a staunch atheist (though I don't see it that way, myself), if our existence has some fundamental cause, I find it not implausible that an inner personal relationship could be had with such a thing. So I keep an open mind, at least to that extent.

The only objection I have is what that fundamental cause might be. If it were the god of the bible (as outlined in that very literature), who is painted as a "primitive and bumbling idiot", I can't really think of any reason not to completely reject him.

This always seems a problem. I find it so unlikely that such a thing exists, particularly in the way claimed, that with so much of it obviously untrue and no real reason to believe the rest, I discount this biblical version as an obvious myth to begin with. Though Christians generally seem as intelligent as anyone else, I always wonder about this, how such a being (if he were to exist) could be worshiped in any way.....

NewAgeMan

CornShucker

You should have a read about this since you brought it up earlier in the thread.
No Faith in Science Why the Higgs boson is not like a sea of milk that sustains the gods.

Since I was the one who mentioned it (apparently), I went and read the provided link.
-- snip --

The linked article is entirely disingenuous as a reply to what I posted about the Higgs Boson discovery, and had nothing to do with unnaturalness or unexpected fine tuning, read a bit of it and whent WTH? That it ends in an insult isn't surprising. The posting of it and then reposting of it with a heap of insults by that rude atheist poster above isn't surprising either.

Hi NAM,
Guess I was more tired than what I thought earlier. I went back and scanned the thread and thought that I'd been the first to mention it.

NewAgeManIt's not God who is hurt by any of this insulting mannerism by atheists, but we the people of God, although we were told this would happen, best to count our blessings I guess and be "exceedingly glad" as Jesus suggested might be the appropriate response to be so reviled, so detested in our beliefs and understanding, and in some cases our comprehension of things that the atheist is, apparently, incapable of grasping.

It makes me want to call "them" losers, with a capital L, but that's not how I'm taught to react/respond. Therefore thanks for putting my Christian teachings to the test dear losers I meant atheists! LOL

Then again I do love all people, so I must stand in that love for others even when they are exceedingly rude and ignorant. "forgive them father for they know not what they do."


Best Regards,

NAM

edit on 16-11-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

We are living in a time that is possibly the most challenging in quite a while to be a Christian. Personally, I'm fine with talking faith to anyone until it turns to insults. All anyone needs tell me is that they are an atheist and happy as they are and I'll gladly leave it at that. Why some modern atheists have made it their mission to destroy the faith of believers has always made me wonder.

Almost 20 years ago I spent three days on life support and showed only very weak brain stem activity. My wife was under intense pressure to sign the papers and let them pull the plug. (They were anxious to parcel me out in pieces) They just kept telling her, "You don't understand NOBODY comes back from this. He isn't in there anymore and if he did, you'd spend the rest of his life caring for a vegetable.

On the 4th day I woke up and, once they took out the ventilator, my first words were, "What the H*ll happened and can I have something to eat?" (Yes, I'd had a LOT of people praying for me.) I'd had a team of five doctors on my case and they were as shocked as everyone else, one even said that we might as well call it a miracle because he couldn't see how it could have been anything they'd done.

If someone wants to call me a nut, that's ok. I just tell them that if I had money I'd be "eccentric" instead.

Back when the kids were all still living at home, I had a friend helping me work on my old Plymouth. It was one of those steamy Southern Indiana afternoons and he looked over at me and asked, "Why do you wear that thing?"

Took me a minute to realize he meant my old cross. He said, "As miserable as it is that HAS to itch and it's been flopping in your way all afternoon."

I smiled and nodded and said, "Yeah, I've had it since I was a kid. The inlay may not be real turquoise & the cross may not even be real pewter, I've never had it checked. This braided chain isn't the original but it fit through the eye and I don't mind that it's a little too long. It's just long enough that my cross falls across my heart every once in a while and reminds me of a good friend of mine."

He gave me a knowing smile and asked, "Who's that, the girl who gave it to you?"

I said, "Nope, the man that went to that cross for guys like you and me."

That's about as close to getting "preachy".

Best Wishes,
Cornshucker

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Dear Cogito, Ergo Sum,

You're not intruding at all, I'm very happy for your additional thoughts.

I applaud your open mind. As much as many would like to see it, there just isn't absolute conclusive proof of the cause of our existence. There's evidence, but not proof. All we can do is follow your example by keeping an open mind and trying to gather all the evidence we can. When we've done that, we have to choose what we believe to be the most likely. If we fail to choose what we believe about the most fundamental and important question, I think we would be shirking our duty.

It will take time for each of us to make our decision, but because our entire life and our behavior depends on our decision, we have to make it eventually.

The only objection I have is what that fundamental cause might be. If it were the god of the bible (as outlined in that very literature), who is painted as a "primitive and bumbling idiot", I can't really think of any reason not to completely reject him.

Very interesting. I don't think I've heard God described as a bumbling, primitive, idiot before. If the Jews were God's "Chosen people," He certainly seems to have done a good job in ensuring their survival against incredibly powerful enemies. And if He seems primitive, what would you do if you were dealing with a primitive people in a primitive time? Introduce the Bill of Rights, the United Nations, Anarcho-capitalism, international trade agreements?

But, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "primitive and bumbling idiot."

I find it so unlikely that such a thing exists, particularly in the way claimed, that with so much of it obviously untrue and no real reason to believe the rest, I discount this biblical version as an obvious myth to begin with.

Of course, I can never fully understand your thoughts or arguments, but it seems that you're saying. "I can't worship God because I rely on His description in the Bible to show me He is an idiot. However, I don't rely on His description in the Bible because the Bible is false and unbelievable."

I know I must be missing something here.

Remembering that the ancient Jews were a primitive people in a primitive time, is it really surprising that God appeared and acted in ways which they could understand and accept? When tribes were destroying each other on a monthly basis, I think you can understand why "Turn the other cheek" wasn't high on God's list of messages.

Then Jesus came. Seen as God and the Messiah, His message was a different one. Not contradictory, but with a different emphasis and purpose.

Christians worship God, at least in part, because they don't see Him as a bumbling, primitive, idiot. (And we haven't even started on how a bumbling, primitive, idiot could create and sustain the Universe. After all, our advanced scientists don't know how it happened.)

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by AfterInfinity

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

(quote by NAM) Everything is made in just the right way, even the latest science has shown that the Higgs Boson while it upholds the standard model of physics, demonstrates a selection bias in favor of life or fine tuning, in the extreme, a "problem" for which neither the strong anthropic principal nor the multiverse theory can offer any "consolation" (to a bias opposed to "God" or "infinitely intelligent creative agency" as a possibility), for reasons that I don't have the time to go into right now. (end quote)

AI: Can we have links for this? I want to be sure you're not just taking interpretive liberties here.

Originally posted by squiz

Decades of confounding experiments have physicists considering a startling possibility: The universe might not make sense.
...
However, in order for the Higgs boson to make sense with the mass (or equivalent energy) it was determined to have, the LHC needed to find a swarm of other particles, too. None turned up.
...
With the discovery of only one particle, the LHC experiments deepened a profound problem in physics that had been brewing for decades. Modern equations seem to capture reality with breathtaking accuracy, correctly predicting the values of many constants of nature and the existence of particles like the Higgs. Yet a few constants — including the mass of the Higgs boson — are exponentially different from what these trusted laws indicate they should be, in ways that would rule out any chance of life, unless the universe is shaped by inexplicable fine-tunings and cancellations.
...
The LHC will resume smashing protons in 2015 in a last-ditch search for answers. But in papers, talks and interviews, Arkani-Hamed and many other top physicists are already confronting the possibility that the universe might be unnatural.
...
Physicists reason that if the universe is unnatural, with extremely unlikely fundamental constants that make life possible, then an enormous number of universes must exist for our improbable case to have been realized. Otherwise, why should we be so lucky? Unnaturalness would give a huge lift to the multiverse hypothesis, which holds that our universe is one bubble in an infinite and inaccessible foam.
...
The energy built into the vacuum of space (known as vacuum energy, dark energy or the cosmological constant) is a baffling trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion times smaller than what is calculated to be its natural, albeit self-destructive, value. No theory exists about what could naturally fix this gargantuan disparity. But it’s clear that the cosmological constant has to be enormously fine-tuned to prevent the universe from rapidly exploding or collapsing to a point. It has to be fine-tuned in order for life to have a chance.
...
Now, physicists say, the unnaturalness of the Higgs makes the unnaturalness of the cosmological constant more significant.

www.simonsfoundation.org...

[quote by squiz] Notice the escape clause to extend the probabilty argument?

"then an enormous number of universes must exist for our improbable case to have been realized. Otherwise, why should we be so lucky?"

Why else indeed, never mind that big fat elephant in the room. [end quote by squiz - quoting removed to allow text] (wish they'd fix that)

Higgs Boson Discovery - Post.

NAM: Now this right here is perhaps THE most courageous, and possibly the FUNNIEST thing a modern physicist has ever stated.

-----------------

“There are frustrating theoretical problems in quantum field theory that demand solutions, but the string theory ‘landscape’ of 10/500 solutions does not make sense to me. Neither does the multiverse concept OR the anthropic principle,”

“New discoveries tend to be intuitive, just on the borderline of believability. Later, they become obvious.”

~ David J. Gross, Nobel Prize-winning physicist.

---------------

Just to be clear, AfterInfinity,

You do recognize the implications of this dilemma, which it does not appear that the final round of experiments to be performed in 2015,

"The LHC will resume smashing protons in 2015 in a last-ditch search for answers. But in papers, talks and interviews, Arkani-Hamed and many other top physicists are already confronting the possibility that the universe might be unnatural."

are going to resolve satisfactorily (in the absence of a "fine tuner")? You cannot have it both ways.

Of course this forces most of their hands (including yours) to immediately adopt the 10/500 multiverse universes theory which may very well be absurd, particularly when framed within the context of the anthropic principal, for reasons that we can explore and discuss together.

Physicists reason that if the universe is unnatural, with extremely unlikely fundamental constants that make life possible, then an enormous number of universes must exist for our improbable case to have been realized. Otherwise, why should we be so lucky? Unnaturalness would give a huge lift to the multiverse hypothesis, which holds that our universe is one bubble in an infinite and inaccessible foam. According to a popular but polarizing framework called string theory, the number of possible types of universes that can bubble up in a multiverse is around 10/500. In a few of them, chance cancellations would produce the strange constants we observe.

In such a picture, not everything about this universe is inevitable, rendering it unpredictable. Edward Witten, a string theorist at the Institute, said by email, “I would be happy personally if the multiverse interpretation is not correct, in part because it potentially limits our ability to understand the laws of physics. But none of us were consulted when the universe was created.”
- Edward Witten, (Atheist) String Theorist.

Quantum physics tells us there is no out there out there. It's all almost like parallel universes, as the best theory to describe it all. It's a big vr simulation. A very good one. So it's just there just because seriously doesn't slice it. Your house isn't there just because. Someone built it way back. Same with everything else.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

"But none of us were consulted when the universe was created.”

- Edward Witten, (Atheist) String Theorist

-------------------

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — I in them and you in me — so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. (the correct logical premise)

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

John 17

Ho Ho Ho!

Merry Christmas!

May God the Supreme Being of infinite intelligence who created it all (beginning with the end in mind), Bless you and Yours, this Holiday Season, and beyond...................................!

Luv,

NAM aka Bob
Your brother, in Christ, even in spite of myself.

reply to post by CornShucker


Totally awesome testimony, and funny, that's the telltale sign, your mirth about it all, it was also strange reading the typing of a person who isn't supposed to be alive by all normal and rational, scientific standards.

Quick question re: this part, regarding your cross

CornShucker

Back when the kids were all still living at home, I had a friend helping me work on my old Plymouth. It was one of those steamy Southern Indiana afternoons and he looked over at me and asked, "Why do you wear that thing?"

Took me a minute to realize he meant my old cross. He said, "As miserable as it is that HAS to itch and it's been flopping in your way all afternoon."

I smiled and nodded and said, "Yeah, I've had it since I was a kid. The inlay may not be real turquoise & the cross may not even be real pewter, I've never had it checked. This braided chain isn't the original but it fit through the eye and I don't mind that it's a little too long. It's just long enough that my cross falls across my heart every once in a while and reminds me of a good friend of mine."

He gave me a knowing smile and asked, "Who's that, the girl who gave it to you?"

I said, "Nope, the man that went to that cross for guys like you and me."

That's about as close to getting "preachy".

Best Wishes,
Cornshucker

Did he laugh, or was he insulted?

To those that had people praying for sick loved ones: where the f**k was your god when your loved one got sick to begin with, why did he allow it, why do you need to pray now? What kind of sick, spiteful, piece of s**t god lets people get terminally ill, then requires that you need to go and pray for help??? Really?

It's the training, dedication, and intelligence of the the medical professional that helps the ill, not some BS prayer. Insanity.

eggman90
To those that had people praying for sick loved ones: where the f**k was your god when your loved one got sick to begin with, why did he allow it, why do you need to pray now? What kind of sick, spiteful, piece of s**t god lets people get terminally ill, then requires that you need to go and pray for help??? Really?

It's the training, dedication, and intelligence of the the medical professional that helps the ill, not some BS prayer. Insanity.

Sickness is a part of this mortal and corruptible world, until it passes away even as we pass into the Truth and the Reality.

I would say "get thee behind us satan", but I don't want to offend, so we'll go with the Prayer of Saint Francis, instead.

Lord, make me a channel of thy peace, that where there is hatred, I may bring love; that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness; that where there is discord, I may bring harmony; that where there is error, I may bring truth; that where there is doubt, I may bring faith; that where there is despair, I may bring hope; that where there are shadows, I may bring light that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.
Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted; to understand, than to be understood; to love, than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life.

NewAgeMan
Sickness is a part of this mortal and corruptible world, until it passes away even as we pass into the Truth and the Reality.

If you've nothing constructive to say, why spout useless platitudes?

I would say "get thee behind us satan", but I don't want to offend, so we'll go with the Prayer of Saint Francis, instead.

Too late. It's already offensive.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


Speaking of "not constructive"...have you looked in a mirror lately? You don't seem entirely interested in being helpful so much as acerbically critical.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Hello Pot? This is Kettle...have we met?

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


My point being, you no longer have any right to criticize me for my methods.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Ah, so now I have no right to speak?
Interesting.
Conversation over then.

-Good Bye-