A Manual For Creating Atheists

reply to post by Eryiedes


I said you have no right to criticize me. But now it sounds like that's all you were interested in doing. Bye then.

eggman90
To those that had people praying for sick loved ones: where the f**k was your god when your loved one got sick to begin with, why did he allow it, why do you need to pray now? What kind of sick, spiteful, piece of s**t god lets people get terminally ill, then requires that you need to go and pray for help??? Really?

It's the training, dedication, and intelligence of the the medical professional that helps the ill, not some BS prayer. Insanity.

I agree. On top of that why is it claims of faith healing can never be proven. Oh yeah u tube videos and hearsay but I mean real proof. How about X-rays or mri of before and after the healing.

What I have seen is befor and after photos of grave sites where faith healing community's have buried there children from things like pneumonia which they could have cured with medical care but instead felt it was a test of faith. Think they said out of 500 graves 140 something were kids.ATS

NewAgeMan
reply to post by CornShucker

 

Totally awesome testimony, and funny, that's the telltale sign, your mirth about it all, it was also strange reading the typing of a person who isn't supposed to be alive by all normal and rational, scientific standards.

Quick question re: this part, regarding your cross

Did he laugh, or was he insulted?

Actually, neither. We've been friends longer than I've known my wife. My apologies for the typo. I meant to say that what I said was - as close as I get to being "preachy".

I make no effort to hide the fact I'm a Christian, but I don't flog strangers with it, either. Back when I worked for that little Christian computer company we had a salesman that was so over the top that I always suspected that he drove business away at times. When I tried to talk to him about it (privately, I didn't want to make him feel like I was putting him on the spot) he said, "I don't care. It's my job to make sure that sinners hear about the Word first. Computers come second." He's one of the people who brought me to the idea of being "Church Crazy", as I've mentioned in another thread.

If my friend had wanted to talk about it more I would have gladly. He's like a brother to me, we're that close as friends. As I've said, I just try to live my faith and be sincere with those I meet. At heart, I'm a simple man and I gladly leave the really deep discussions to those much smarter than I.

eggman90
To those that had people praying for sick loved ones: where the f**k was your god when your loved one got sick to begin with, why did he allow it, why do you need to pray now? What kind of sick, spiteful, piece of s**t god lets people get terminally ill, then requires that you need to go and pray for help??? Really?

It's the training, dedication, and intelligence of the the medical professional that helps the ill, not some BS prayer. Insanity.

I'll refrain from using any language you might find offensive (Christian, not swearing), but of course you are right!! In another time I would surely have been dead long, long ago because that was my second episode. The first time just wasn't quite as extreme. (I was still considered brain dead for a while there) In fact, I've lost count of how many times I've been "dead". There've been times I've considered the possibility that part of my Life Work might be to serve as some sort of learning tool for the medical profession.

For all the good doctors and nurses that made it possible that I am sitting here now I am truly thankful. Imo, the BEST advice is still, "Say a prayer, but say it on the way to ER."

Sincerely,
Cornshucker

P.S. As to your deeper questions, I admit that I don't know. My honesty got me in trouble where I used to work because my boss found out I'd said that. His exact words were, "Don't EVER tell a customer you don't know, again!! If you see something you've never seen before nod your head and make intelligent noises, then when you get back here you can check with me. When you are at a customer site, it's like the old deodorant commercial. Don't Ever Let Them See You Sweat. The truth was that I'd always said I'd research what I'd seen, but I guess he never heard that part.

reply to post by CornShucker


So your boss prohibited all honesty regarding your personal views? Seems a tad oppressive to me.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by CornShucker

 

So your boss prohibited all honesty regarding your personal views? Seems a tad oppressive to me.

I eventually left the company for ethical reasons. It made it impossible for me to complete my degree but I had the satisfaction of knowing I left with the respect of every customer I'd worked with. In general, they requested me first even though I was Service Manager and not the best programmer working for the company. They were all good people and they knew that my only reason for coming through the door was to help them get back up and running as quickly as possible.

Staying on topic, I'm still working on the Manual... My only real complaint would be that I'd have preferred Hitchens had done the foreword. Hitch could be blunt to the point of abrasive but I respected him because of his ability to keep his arguments against religion on topic. Shermer is entitled to his opinion just like anyone else but I don't find anything likeable about him. Lest anyone point out the admonition not to be judgmental, it is a natural part of human nature to have some that you just wouldn't care to be around. That doesn't mean I hold any ill will for him, I'm just glad that I don't have to deal with him personally.

reply to post by CornShucker


You're making a manual for atheism? Is it a map or an instruction book?

Ahhhh. Im so sorry i cant help myself. A manual for creating atheists....its called the bible.
Talking from experience here as well.

Evening,

Based entirely on the picture supplied in the OP, any "Atheist Manual" made for that group had better include a lot of pop-ups and maybe a coloring section.
Where's Waldo?

"Oh no, Waldo is in Purgatory...help get him out."

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


What do you mean by that?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I have a better idea.
Let's not do this dance again.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


So you just planned on coming into this thread, throwing some fighting words around, then ducking out before someone could ask you to explain your snotty attitude? Excuse me if I don't intend to let you throw your sucker punches with impunity. I don't like your style, but the least you could do is come up with a good reason for being so unpleasant.

Or is that beyond your abilities?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


No...just with you.
We obviously don't play well.

-Good Bye-

reply to post by Eryiedes

No...just with you.
We obviously don't play well.

Orly?

Evening,

Based entirely on the picture supplied in the OP, any "Atheist Manual" made for that group had better include a lot of pop-ups and maybe a coloring section.
Where's Waldo?

"Oh no, Waldo is in Purgatory...help get him out."

This wasn't addressed to me. This was addressed to the thread in general. You just don't like that I'm calling you off your porch for good reason. Oh, you're leaving now? Good. I'm glad. Don't come here throwing your sucker punches and expect me to let it slide. Keep talking trash, I'll call you on every bit of it.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by CornShucker

 

You're making a manual for atheism? Is it a map or an instruction book?

Sorry I was being a such a dim bulb!

Totally my bad... I was writing without making sure I kept things in context. What I meant was that I was still thinking through the article in the OP.

reply to post by CornShucker


Oh darn. Well, maybe I should check out the manual in the OP...I haven't done so yet, primarily because I don't rely on a manual in any sense, but I'm kinda curious now.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by CornShucker

 

Oh darn. Well, maybe I should check out the manual in the OP...I haven't done so yet, primarily because I don't rely on a manual in any sense, but I'm kinda curious now.

edit on 17-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I've held off on a direct response to the link in the OP because I know it can be a "Hot" button issue. A quick scan of this thread will bear that out. Always.... I try to give the caveat that I'll never be a biblical scholar. As a matter of fact, one of our customers was a minister that started out a great friend of my boss and they wound up unable to stand each other. This was back around the time of Windows 2.0 just to give you some idea. The really deep reference stuff the minister wanted to use was all DOS stuff. I created a menu of batch files (including help files) that allowed him to pick what he wanted and then restart his system. That wasn't good enough. In the end, when he moved away, he sued my boss for the cost of undoing everything I'd done for him. Really, my main point is that it was reference stuff that I would never have gone into. Yes, I know that opens me up to criticism but I know a lot of secular professionals that understand given points "in principle" without telling you which book, which page and which paragraph.

The article in question (OP) is:
Learn to De-Convert the Faithful With Practical New Book
by Alan Litchfield

Before I say anything serious, I'd like to share one of the reviews I found on Amazon:
"A book so great you can skip it and just read the footnotes. Pure genius." -- Christopher Johnson, co-founder, The Onion

Laughter is good for the heart/soul whether you are a person of faith or not. We're all only here for a short while and I believe with all my heart that Life is for the living. The Mormon missionaries that used to visit got VERY uncomfortable the afternoon I asked them if they'd ever pictured Christ laughing, but I've never understood why. They, themselves, told me Christ loved children. Kids are a hoot... How can you envision someone who loves kids and not imagine them ever laughing???

But I digress... (it's chronic, sorry 'bout that)

The author, Boghossian, brings up the argument often used by people of faith:

“Why take away faith if it helps get people through the day?”

Boghossian argues (my emphasis):

"This is a common line among blue-collar liberals whoʼve not been indoctrinated by liberal academic values. Iʼve never really understood how removing a bad way to reason will make it difficult to get through the day. If anything, it would seem that correcting someoneʼs reasoning would increase their chances getting through the day. When one has a more reliable form of reasoning they are then more capable of crafting conditions that then enable them to navigate lifeʼs obstacles. When one embraces reason only then they can legitimately have hope."

I find that an extremely interesting choice of words...

The YouTube discussion/debate between Peter Joseph and Stefan Molyneux includes a remark from Joseph (I'm paraphrasing from memory): "After a certain point, education becomes indistinguishable from indoctrination."

The actual discussion can be seen Here. It isn't completely germane to this thread. I AM, however, curious as to which is more important to Mr. Boghossian and his liberal academics, Education or Indoctrination? The second of the two comes dangerously close to the goal of unquestioning minds that he claims to so disdain in those very people his book seeks to convert. Makes it kind of hard to respect his opinion.

The author of the article linked in the OP, Alan Litchfield, comments that:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the previous three months the Christian apologist Tom Gilson at thinkingchristian.net has published no fewer than 11 blog posts criticizing Boghossian’s views and his book.

Gilson finally gets to an interesting question:

"But the skeptic will ask: Sure thatʼs what you Christians say, but what good is that “knowledge” connection if everything you think you know is all false?"

Gilson is getting close to the correct question, but is still disturbingly far from an appropriate answer.
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Between the two of them, I can't help but feel the same vibe as I've described with my former co-worker who all but beat people over the head with his bible...

Let's take a look at both statements but flip the narrative...:

#1. (I'm condensing for brevity...) "I'm helping them. When someone learns to look at things 'correctly' they are better able do deal with day to day life. After all, the wages of Sin are Death."

#2. If I ask a skeptic, "Sure thatʼs what you skeptics say, but what good is all that “Knowledge” if everything you think you know is all False and you find the grave wasn't the destination you expected?" Have I not done what I've been asked to do as a Christian? The more learned are welcome to correct me, but I'm pretty sure that every man is free to turn away, as he chooses...

So, in summary, my question is this:
Who would you prefer to be identified with, a religious fanatic that virtually grabs someone by the shirt and shakes them while screaming that they have to turn away from all they thought they knew and be born again or someone who virtually grabs someone by the shirt and screams in their face that religion is the sign of the mentally weak, spiritually sick and that they can see the LIGHT if only they'll open their minds and listen to him?

I've got a real problem with both. My standard talk to all the people I did IT work for was that if someone told them they had all the answers when it came to computers, they should run like H*ll the other direction because they were either talking to a Liar or a Fool!!!

In a polite, civil world (which Mr. Boghossian claims to want) shouldn't there be a point where it is possible to say, "Let's just not go there" and be left alone?

reply to post by CornShucker


And here I thought the thread had derailed to the point of no return. I am very glad you took the time to digest the article and you even did a bit of digging it seems. The question you pose as to who would I rather identify with my answer would be neither but I am sure some would be able to justify either choice.

In the beginning had had zero desire to read the book but now my curiosity is peaked. I may look around the library on my next trip because I just wonder now what exactly that book entails. Not enough to buy one though.

I tip my hat to you though for taking an honest look at what has been presented in the OP.

Grimpachi
reply to post by CornShucker

 

And here I thought the thread had derailed to the point of no return. I am very glad you took the time to digest the article and you even did a bit of digging it seems. The question you pose as to who would I rather identify with my answer would be neither but I am sure some would be able to justify either choice.

In the beginning had had zero desire to read the book but now my curiosity is peaked. I may look around the library on my next trip because I just wonder now what exactly that book entails. Not enough to buy one though.

I tip my hat to you though for taking an honest look at what has been presented in the OP.

And my thanks for helping make sure I shake the cobwebs off once in a while.

I've already put in a request at our library, too. This old horse may have run his last race and we've been depending on my wife's income for almost two years so I can't afford it, either. I DO plan to read it though, just a matter of getting my hands on it.

All my best,
CS

One quick thought before I drag my tired old tail up to bed.

Where do these guys come up with "unquestioned" faith? Of course there will always be a certain percentage of the population that gladly lets someone else do their thinking for them. If there weren't, it would be impossible for a political party to exist!

But being a Christian? Each day is a challenge. I'd never heard the term "comfortable" Christian before a particular revival I attended. "Brother Bob" was genuinely one of the highlights of my life. I learned a lot in those five hours (Mon - Fri).

At the moment, the best example that comes to mind is back when I was still able to be a weekend musician. Coming from a farm background, my wife knew there was no way I'd ever be wearing a ring. I know three guys that lost their ring fingers to accidents.

There were many nights when I got a flirtatious little, "How's a girl s'posed to know you're married if you don't wear a ring?" My answer was always the same. What is important is that "I" know I'm married.

We knew it was getting time to think about changing churches when our two young boys started to notice something my wife and I had already discussed... There was an undercurrent in our former home church that basically went, "I can do almost anything to you and as long as I say I'm sorry, you have to forgive me. If you don't, you're the one that's not a good Christian...

There's really no way to get inside someone else's head, but I've got serious doubts about the motivations of someone that writes a book about tearing down someone else. Education is one thing, Demoralization is another...