Baptism and the Flood of Noah for Dummies - Beasts in the Water

reply to post by EnochWasRight


You didn't answer the question. Are the rulers today agents of God for our good?

You are STILL ignoring the verses I brought up. They say very specifically that rulers only bear the sword against wrongdoers and that they are agents of God for our good. ARE THOSE TWO THINGS TRUE? He does not take back those two things anywhere within the rest of that chapter.

You refuse to answer because you KNOW that they are not true, so you deflect the question by highlighting the rest of the chapter as if it takes away those two falsities. Guess what, it doesn't. It changes subjects to love, which has nothing to do with rulers in any way.

As for the title of the last passage of Romans 13: "The Day is Near"

Luke 21
8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.

Why don't you listen to your savior?

wildtimes
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

What! What did I do now????

@Ed:

It doesn't really matter how many pages it is....
you asked for a separate thread: so, make one.

I am not the one asking the questions to challenge the axioms of the Bible. You may be confused as to what AfterInfinity is asking. I made the comment that the Axioms in the Bible are the highest we know and that I challenge him to point out a scripture reference that was false. In other words, find a truth in the Bible that is easily denied.

I am merely waiting for him to author a thread for the topic. Pointing to another thread is not a good way to go about this challenge.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

In other words, find a truth in the Bible that is easily denied.

What?!! "Find a truth in the Bible that is easily denied"....????? Seriously?

That is an inherently flawed 'question'!
I really shouldn't need to point this out to adults, but:

You are "presuming" that the Bible is full of 'truths'.....

the point being, there are MANY members here who say, "Erm, no. The Bible is not 'full of truths.'"

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

You didn't answer the question. Are the rulers today agents of God for our good?

You are STILL ignoring the verses I brought up. They say very specifically that rulers only bear the sword against wrongdoers and that they are agents of God for our good. ARE THOSE TWO THINGS TRUE? He does not take back those two things anywhere within the rest of that chapter.

You refuse to answer because you KNOW that they are not true, so you deflect the question by highlighting the rest of the chapter as if it takes away those two falsities. Guess what, it doesn't. It changes subjects to love, which has nothing to do with rulers in any way.

God has ordained their right to rule for a time. Rulers are judged according to their rule. The rulers of a nation have always reflected the righteousness of the people. Godly nations have rulers that act accordingly. As a nation crumbles, so the leaders descend into tyranny. Again, this does not change God's ordinance to respect their rule. Doing the right thing is always preferable to creating two wrongs. God's ordinance here is valid, especially when you know that the reward (Such as taxes) will be the only reward they get. Christ condemned the Builders (Masons), High Priests, Moneychangers (Bankers) and Experts in the Law (Lawyers / Law Makers). His instruction to them in the first century was clear. As I stated, there is a reason they are given rule. There is a reason Satan was placed in the Garden.

That reason necessitates the need for the meek to remain meek.

reply to post by wildtimes


Hahaha! Nice catch wildtimes, I didn't notice that.

You may as well be asking someone to prove that a dog is a cat! It doesn't make any sense and is a loaded question.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

God's ordinance here is valid, especially when you now that the reward (Such as taxes) will be the only reward they get. Christ condemned the Builders (Masons), High Priests, Moneychangers (Bankers) and Experts in the Law (Lawyers / Law Makers). His instruction to them in the first century was clear. As I stated, there is a reason they are given rule. There is a reason Satan was placed in the Garden.

That reason necessitates the need for the meek to remain meek.

Ed. You are extremely wrapped up in this stuff....and, I suspect, it is to your detriment. Personally, and professionally as well.

You actually believe in Adam/Eve/Garden/Satan?
(We know you have a thing against Masons already....and I myself am anti-BANKERS and not fond of LAWYERS...but. Seriously? You're still going with the 'Satan' thing?)

The human condition is what it is. That's just how it is.

I admire your zeal, honestly. I do. But, sadly, I just can't 'buy in' to any of it.

Warmest regards,
a "Dummie"

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Again, you ate avoiding the issue. I'll make it as crystal clear as I possibly can this time.

Are the rulers of today agents of God for our good?

Do the rulers of today only bear the sword against wrongdoers?

If they are agents of God then why do you say they are Satan's agents?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Again, you ate avoiding the issue. I'll make it as crystal clear as I possibly can this time.

Are the rulers of today agents of God for our good?

Do the rulers of today only bear the sword against wrongdoers?

If they are agents of God then why do you say they are Satan's agents?

Romans 13 defines the type of rulers Paul is describing. He was referring to Rome in particular and speaking to those ruled by Rome. You, however, are speaking about any ruler who has ever lived, or more particularly, those who live today. Put Paul's words into context to Roman rule.

Are the rulers of today agents of God for our good? According to the type of ruler Paul describes, it would depend on the ruler you use for an example. As I stated earlier, God places people in authority for reasons outlined in multiple passages in the Bible. Ultimately, the light will rule the darkness. This is the promise given to the Saints.

Do the rulers of today bear the sword against wrongdoers? Yes. The Bible also describes rulers who persecute whole nations. Again, Paul was speaking to the Roman occupation of Israel. As a generalization, Paul did a good job of describing the meek in comparison to the ruling authority of this age.

If they are agents of God then why do you say they are Satan's agents? God allows Satan to rule man. He allowed mankind the choice in Genesis 3. God informed Israel that it would be better to avoid a king. Instead, the rejected God's advise. This happened on several occasions. God allowed the request. You can read the results. The entire story of the Bible reflects the results of our rejection of God's authority over that of man ruling himself. God allows it for a reason.

Is the reasoning of God wrapped in a mystery? Yes, but it was revealed in the New Testament. Again, the entire story of the Bible is wrapped up in this issue of authority and man's rebellion of God's advise to us along the way. We get what we ask for, much like our current state of the union in America.

Like I said, the kings reflect the condition of the heart of the people. As with all things in this reality, it is a reciprocal relationship.

I have a thread on this topic of parallel truth.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

God allows Satan to rule man. He allowed mankind the choice in Genesis 3. God informed Israel that it would be better to avoid a king. Instead, the rejected God's advise.

So....
you know the mind of "God", then....????

"God allows Satan to rule man." Wow.

This happened on several occasions. God allowed the request. You can read the results. The entire story of the Bible reflects the results of our rejection of God's authority over that of man ruling himself. God allows it for a reason.

Wow, Ed. Just.....for what "reason" would "God" allow it? To have an excuse to throw people into a fiery eternal inferno?????.....are you serious?................just

that's all. Just

WOW.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Isn't the bible's audience supposed to be the whole world? Isn't the gospel being preached within it for all people from the time it was written up to today? If it is geared toward all people for their salvation, then how does it NOT apply to all rulers from the time it was written up to today?

If Paul was referring to the Roman rulers then why was Rome killing and persecuting Christians at the time of Romans being written? Were Christians back then "wrongdoers" who deserved the sword? Why were Christians being thrown to the lions in the Coliseum to be eaten alive if the Roman rulers of that time only beared their swords against wrongdoers as Paul clearly states?

This is your blindness right here. Your bias toward the bible being infallible is blinding you to the blatant contradiction and outright lie that Paul speaks in that passage. You are so wrapped up in the doctrine of the bible being infallible that you REFUSE to see anything wrong with it, even when it's as blatant as the passage I cited.

Take your blinders off and open your eyes, you've been lied to, now own up to it. Stop making excuses and loop holes because they don't accomplish anything except to show just how blind and gullible you really are.

The bible was put together BY rulers and FOR rulers, and Romans 13 is the most obvious proof of that. There's nothing wrong with admitting you are wrong.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Amnion, amnesty, damnation, etc..... except English hadn't been invented yet. Not sure there's a link there or not.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Amazing to see you here after I just linked one of your posts in response to his challenge above.

Synchronicity? The mysterious ways that 2 beings are connected in the unconscious thru spirit?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Isn't the bible's audience supposed to be the whole world? Isn't the gospel being preached within it for all people from the time it was written up to today? If it is geared toward all people for their salvation, then how does it NOT apply to all rulers from the time it was written up to today?

You are the one saying it doesn't. The Bible and my words agree that it does. Again, you create your own false pretext. If I break the laws of the land, I am in danger of going to jail. Love others and this is only possible if the lawman deprivates my rights. Section 242, Title 18 of US law covers this. LINK

Even in China, there are laws that reflect common law, which originates in Rome. As a general rule, those who abide in the law of love cannot themselves break the law. This does not stop the wicked from persecuting the one following the law. In this case, as the Bible says, they already have their reward. Turn the other cheek and love those who persecute you. They WILL persecute you if you are abiding in truth and love. As evidenced here on ATS, there are those who cannot stand truth.

There is a reason for this: LINK. You and I are experiencing it each time we discuss these matters:

"God has appointed these spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions. False deeds are thus an abomination to the truth, whereas all the ways of truth are for perversity equally a disgrace. Fierce dispute attends every point of decision, for they can never agree. In his mysterious insight and glorious wisdom God has countenanced an era in which perversity triumphs, but at the time appointed for visitation He shall destroy such forever. Then shall truth come forth in victory upon the earth. Sullied by wicked ways while perversity rules, at the time of the appointed judgment truth shall be decreed. "

ATS is a place for this fierce dispute to take place.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


I have oft suspected Wild and I are kindred spirits. I am honored to know her.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If Paul was referring to the Roman rulers then why was Rome killing and persecuting Christians at the time of Romans being written? Were Christians back then "wrongdoers" who deserved the sword? Why were Christians being thrown to the lions in the Coliseum to be eaten alive if the Roman rulers of that time only beared their swords against wrongdoers as Paul clearly states?

The wicked do wickedly. In the face of this, the righteous are still righteous. Their instructions are to continue in righteousness, even if the lawman above them is doing wickedness. When Peter chopped off the ear of the Roman soldier, Jesus corrected him and healed the ear.

John 18

8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”[a]

10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)

11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

We must drink the cup we are given as the cupbearer. I choose not to be the baker. Genesis 40 tells you this.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Try as you might, the words of the Bible stand as truth to the situation God has destined for us to experience.

"All that is now and ever shall be originates with the God of knowledge. Before things come to be, He has ordered all their designs, so that when they do come to exist—at their appointed times as ordained by His glorious plan—they fulfill their destiny, a destiny impossible to change. He controls the laws governing all things, and He provides for all their pursuits. " LINK

Why? Because they are founded on truth and God's invariable expectations for us to follow that truth. Why? It is founded on the family and the reservation of those who desire the same.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

This is your blindness right here. Your bias toward the bible being infallible is blinding you to the blatant contradiction and outright lie that Paul speaks in that passage. You are so wrapped up in the doctrine of the bible being infallible that you REFUSE to see anything wrong with it, even when it's as blatant as the passage I cited.

Take your blinders off and open your eyes, you've been lied to, now own up to it. Stop making excuses and loop holes because they don't accomplish anything except to show just how blind and gullible you really are.

The bible was put together BY rulers and FOR rulers, and Romans 13 is the most obvious proof of that. There's nothing wrong with admitting you are wrong.

My Eyes are Wide Open

Stop ignoring truth and you will see what you are missing. God's family is the point of his jealously for those who love others. Wrath comes to those who do not abide in truth. Why? Truth preserves the family and protects others. Selfishness takes. God's word is founded on truth and the preservation of what is honorable and good. Check the fruits of the Spirit. What are they?

Galatians 5

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

----Why run a race against all odds? Why follow authorities that may very well be working against you?

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Compare this to what you call a contradiction in the Old Testament:

THERE IS A REASON!

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Choose to ignore it, but this was done for you. It is unified from "In the Beginning" to the final words of the Bible.

"20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen."

AMEN means TRUE. Aleph Mem Nun. Strength of the Water and Seed.

Why should you follow the laws of the land you occupy? Paul says it above: 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

jaxnmarko
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Amnion, amnesty, damnation, etc..... except English hadn't been invented yet. Not sure there's a link there or not.

The main source languages for the Germanic roots of English are derived from Semitic sources such as Phonetician, Hebrew, Greek and Latin. The main language for AMN as a root morpheme is from Latin, but originates with the Phonetician. This is well documented as root morphology in language. The tree that blooms and the branches of the trunk originate in the roots. The roots come from the seed. The seed is Word.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

There are 22 letters in Hebrew and 24 in Greek. DNA has 2 pairs of 22 amino acids and 2 sex chromosomes. Combined, the mirror Hebrew and Greek. DNA makes proteins (Words) from chains of letters coded into the sequence of two strands of information.

In Hebrew, Father is Aleph (Strength) Bet (House). The Alphabet wrote the Word. Christ is the Son of God and Living Word. In Hebrew, Son is Bet (House) Nun (Seed). The House of Seed is what I have described. Language is a mirror of this above and below.

How could God have left us with AMN as AMEN (TRUE). Because it is. You are the Lamb made by the Son of God.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


So those Christians who were being thrown to the lions deserved it, they were wrongdoers. Is that about right?

You are totally blind to it, absolutely BLIND! Paul was speaking of the Roman rulers, saying they were agents of God for the people's good and that they only bore the sword against wrongdoers.

Rome killed and persecuted thousands of Christians, crucifying them, throwing them to lions and tigers, impaling them, burning them alive, and all while you say that they DESERVED it because they were wrongdoers! Even Jesus himself deserved to suffer and die a slow death on the cross, all because he was a wrongdoer.

Romans 13
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

So tell me Enoch, what did those thousands and thousands of Christians do for the Roman rulers to bear their swords on them? Was God sending his agents of good to kill his own believers? Did god think that killing them in all sorts of horrible ways was "good" for them?

Rome persecuted Christians for almost 300 years before they legalized it. Why would god kill all of his faithful people then turn around and legalize what they stood for? Tell me, how does that make sense at all?

Your eyes are closed shut. The verses in question are 100% FALSE, you just refuse to see it because of BIAS and BLINDNESS.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You are cutting yourself with that sWord.

LINK

The same reason we are here on ATS is the same reason the Romans persecuted the righteous. We are in an environment to deny ignorance. Truth cuts the hand that uses it as a sword. Truth is double edged. It cuts the one who abuses it as well. In the end, life here is a reflecting point to see that the light revealed what it hit.

Again, there is a reason that trumps your rational reasoning of it.

Isaiah 64

64 Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
2 As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your name known to your enemies
and cause the nations to quake before you!
3 For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.
4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.

---God is invariable with this expectation.

But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?

---Grace and Mercy. Unmerited favor.

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to our sins.

8 Yet you, Lord, are our Father.

He is the Strong House. Rely on Him and no authority remains. God is love, but not to those who choose to hate.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


That's not what the verses say. Stop ignoring the obvious.

Rome didn't bear the sword for no reason and they were agents of god doing things for those Christian's good. That's what the passage says, that they only punished the wrongdoer.

What did those Christians do wrong other than spreading and believing the truth? Is believing in and spreading the truth wrong? If not, why did god send his agents of good to kill people doing exactly that?

Please address the question directly instead of deflecting once again.