Does Resurrected = Born Again?, and does one have to be Resurrected first, before one can receive th

Does Resurrected = Born Again?, and does one have to be Resurrected first, before one can receive the Holy Spirit?

I just want to take a quick poll from Christian members on Ats, regarding the question in my OP Title.

The reason I’m asking is because of my on going discussion with the ATS poster “Enochwasright”, which you can find at the following link…

Please feel free to read through the entire discussion, and to add your 2 cents, if you wish. The more opinions the better.

Regarding my OP questions, please state “Yes”, or “NO”, and then perhaps give a reason for your answer. And if you don’t have the time to wade through all the posts, which are only about 3 pages worth. Then here’s my quick answer to the question.

One comes to receive the Holy Spirit and become “born again” in this lifetime, and does not have to wait for any resurrection to take place, before receiving it IMO. The reasons for which, I outline in this post.

As far as I’m aware, this is the general standard Christian view, right across the board, with no exceptions.

I look forward to hearing your responses…

- JC

From what I understand, resurrected does not mean anything close to born again. It is the accepting of a communication of a kind, in the case of Christianity, you accept the beliefs.

In reality it means that you become one with a philosophy. By doing so it allows you to join into a collective consciousness with others who believe the same. Another words, you start hanging around with others of the same beliefs. You belong to an organization where most people believe alike.

Jesus was in communication with a very good being, one we call god. This being is an entity, meaning it does not need to be human or even possess a body at all. Sort of like Big Corporations which actually have no assets but have a lot of stock value because people have faith in their possible future profits.

I believe in god but do not necessarily believe he/she/it is a being and do not believe that we are made in gods image. I believe Jesus possessed a link to this being/entity, but so have many others in the past and now. To link to god there is a chain of command, none of which necessitate belonging to a certain religion.

The devil is greed, adoration of prestige, and judging others improperly. If someone who is starving steals a few carrots out of your garden, that is not evil. If someone just does it because your carrots taste better than what they have, that is evil.

Now I probably have alienated most religious people because of what I just said, and also those who believe their way of life is the right way even though they gain it by deceit...sometimes they do not even know that they are deceiving others, if you do not want to see something you will rarely see it.

I think baptism was created to get people used to taking a bath myself, people a couple of thousand years ago were discouraged from bathing because it could spread disease in the water. Half the time their skin problems could have been cured by bathing. I wonder if John the baptist had a clothes pin on his nose.

reply to post by Joecroft

Yes, your statement at the end of the OP is the standard Christian view (not the one in the title), though Enochwasright is not exactly the standard Christian.
1 Corinthians ch15 is all about the resurrection as a future event.
The alternate view is criticised in 2 Timothy ch2 v18; "They have swerved from the truth by holding that the resurrection is past already".

Whereas the references to being "born anew" assume it takes place within this life;
"You HAVE BEEN born anew..."- 1 Peter ch1 v23
"No-one born of God commits sin"- 1 John ch3 v9

reply to post by Joecroft

As far as I’m aware, this is the general standard Christian view, right across the board, with no exceptions.

I've never heard an orthodox Christian say anything else.

Christ says being born again is being born of the spirit, not the flesh, and a resurrected body is a fleshly one.

adjensen
Christ says being born again is being born of the spirit, not the flesh, and a resurrected body is a fleshly one.

Yep. What adjensen says. I think it's pretty clear.
One is spiritual. One is organic.
Two different things.

Being born again refers to spiritually only. Generally, for a lot of people, the conversion experience of finding and accepting Christ is truly transformative in their lives; hence the old person they were "dies," and they become a "new" person born of the old.

Resurrection refers to your whole physical being.

reply to post by Joecroft

One comes to receive the Holy Spirit and become “born again” in this lifetime . . .

No, to the thread title's question.

Yes, as to agreeing with the quoted statement by you.
We don't have to wait 'till the resurrection.

I would say that everything in the Bible is about what happens in this life, and anything otherwise is really a way to make analogies about the possible consequences of what you do now.

It wouldn't make sense to write a manual for the afterlife.

reply to post by Joecroft

The more opinions the better.

If you seek opinion, you are in the right avenue. If you yearn for Truth, consult the Bible on such matters.
Recommended are the Gospels and the Book of Revelation.

Joecroft

Does Resurrected = Born Again?, and does one have to be Resurrected first, before one can receive the Holy Spirit?

I just want to take a quick poll from Christian members on Ats, regarding the question in my OP Title.

The reason I’m asking is because of my on going discussion with the ATS poster “Enochwasright”, which you can find at the following link…

Please feel free to read through the entire discussion, and to add your 2 cents, if you wish. The more opinions the better.

Regarding my OP questions, please state “Yes”, or “NO”, and then perhaps give a reason for your answer. And if you don’t have the time to wade through all the posts, which are only about 3 pages worth. Then here’s my quick answer to the question.

One comes to receive the Holy Spirit and become “born again” in this lifetime, and does not have to wait for any resurrection to take place, before receiving it IMO. The reasons for which, I outline in this post.

As far as I’m aware, this is the general standard Christian view, right across the board, with no exceptions.

I look forward to hearing your responses…

- JC

Paradigmatic questions...
...that bear no relation to the whole...

Å99

John 3:3 does not say "born again" it says born from above or born on high.Yahoshua is proclaiming the salvation process and how it has parallels to being born in the lower physical realm.

No one has been resurrected or born on high yet or has "been" saved past tense.Mankind is in the process of being formed in the physical realm womb of the valley of the shadow of death because mankind is an embryo.

Yahoshua is never prescribing a method to do anything.He is proclaiming what is....You must be born from above ..was his answer to what Nicodemus said about the things he did and who he was.

reply to post by Rex282

Originally posted by Rex282
John 3:3 does not say "born again" it says born from above or born on high.Yahoshua is proclaiming the salvation process and how it has parallels to being born in the lower physical realm.

Yes exactly. I was aware of that. One of the links in this OP, has another link to my Seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven thread, where I covered exactly what you mentioned above; more specifically in this post.

Anyway, yes your right, it means to be born of God, or born from the Top, or on high etc…

But In John 3:3 and John3:5 Jesus is making a clear paralleled between becoming “born again” and receiving the Holy Spirit IMO…mainly because of the context of those verses. And Jesus says the new birth is of the Spirit, with his use of the phrase “born of water and the Spirit”. And then clarifies the point, by stating that, “flesh give birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth spirit.” Thus showing that there was a clear difference between the two.

And I believe, as do many Christians here on this thread, that receiving the Holy Spirit, is something which happens in this lifetime, and not after your resurrected…would you not agree…?

Originally posted by Rex
No one has been resurrected or born on high yet or has "been" saved past tense.Mankind is in the process of being formed in the physical realm womb of the valley of the shadow of death because mankind is an embryo.

Yes, no one has been resurrected yet.

But your making the same mistake as the poster “Enochwasright”, because Jesus said this “new birth”, is a new birth of the spirit, and not the flesh. Which in turn means, it must take place in this lifetime, and not after the resurrection.

- JC

Why incarnate a blessed splinter of yourself, to then require it (in some godly form of disownership) to seek 'salvation' from a situation it did not put itself in?

Å99

reply to post by Joecroft


Ephesians 1

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Have you inherited the Kingdom yet? Have you acquired possession? Being marked by the Holy Spirit is a seal from God and justification showing us to be sanctified for the future plan of God. Until the enemy is made the footstool, we are all waiting for our inheritance.

Hebrews 9

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Has He appeared? Are we waiting?

As for the Resurrection:

Revelation 20

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Has this happened? Not yet. Close, but not yet.

1 Corinthians 15

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Has this happened yet? Is the enemy the footstool now? Not quite, but close.

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

We cannot be raised beyond the flesh until Christ comes for for those who are waiting. Hebrews 9 tells you this. Until then, we wait in the water. You must be born again in the water until we inherit the Spirit. Have we gained our inheritance yet?

Ephesians 1

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Until we gain possession of it. Not now, but when.

reply to post by Joecroft


John 14

17 The Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive (welcome, take to its heart), because it does not see Him or know and recognize Him. But you know and recognize Him, for He lives with you [constantly] and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you as orphans [comfortless, desolate, bereaved, forlorn, helpless]; I will come [back] to you.

---This is the comforter given to man until we receive the Spirit of Truth. We know from the end of John 2 that Jesus would not entrust Himself to those coming to Him. They were not ready.

19 Just a little while now, and the world will not see Me any more, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
20 At that time [when that day comes] you will know [for yourselves] that I am in My Father, and you [are] in Me, and I [am] in you.

Is Christ in and through us? Yes. Of course. The Holy Spirit is not in us until the Spirit rises and the enemy is the footstool. Mankind is still deceived.

21 The person who has My commands and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I [too] will love him and will show (reveal, manifest) Myself to him. [I will let Myself be clearly seen by him and make Myself real to him.]
22 Judas, not Iscariot, asked Him, Lord, how is it that You will reveal Yourself [make Yourself real] to us and not to the world?
23 Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him.

---Who is WE in the verse above? This would be all three members of the Trinity. Right now, we are deceived and still under sin and death. The process is the revelation of the Father in Faith, then the Son in character, then the Spirit in holiness. Right now, we have not followed Christ. None of us have. Have you sold all your possessions and given to the poor? Do you sin? Do you judge your brother? We are still deceived. The Day of the Lord is the Day we receive all three members of the Trinity. We cannot claim the Spirit until we are Holy ourselves. We do not make ourselves holy. We are made holy.

24 Anyone who does not [really] love Me does not observe and obey My teaching. And the teaching which you hear and heed is not Mine, but [comes] from the Father Who sent Me.
25 I have told you these things while I am still with you.
26 But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you.

If we live once and then die, what of all the souls that have lived before Christ? If Christ is the firstfruits of those who sleep in the dust, then where do they experience the promises in these words? The answer is being born again and resurrection. We must be here to experience these things. ALL of us. Otherwise, these promises are only for the people born after Christ. If He is the firstfruits, and the dead are resurrected (Both Righteous and Wicked), then explain how this works for them if they live once.

What did Paul say? Acts 24: 15 Having [the same] hope in God which these themselves hold and look for, that there is to be a resurrection both of the righteous and the unrighteous (the just and the unjust).

Will both the righteous and wicked be here here for the resurrection?

Ephesians

27 Peace I leave with you; My [own] peace I now give and bequeath to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. [Stop allowing yourselves to be agitated and disturbed; and do not permit yourselves to be fearful and intimidated and cowardly and unsettled.]

---Can someone with a Holy Spirit be described by these qualities?

28 You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.

---Is Jesus God? Clearly, there is a relationship. The We is all three.

29 And now I have told you [this] before it occurs, so that when it does take place you may believe and have faith in and rely on Me.

---What takes place again? All the things leading up to the Day of the Lord, at event horizon of being transformed in the twinkling of an eye. Again, has not happened yet.

30 I will not talk with you much more, for the prince (evil genius, ruler) of the world is coming. And he has no claim on Me. [He has nothing in common with Me; there is nothing in Me that belongs to him, and he has no power over Me.]
31 But [Satan is coming and] I do as the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know (be convinced) that I love the Father and that I do only what the Father has instructed Me to do. [I act in full agreement with His orders.] Rise, let us go away from here.

I selected the amplified Bible so you can see the highlights to what is said. Are we marked with the Spirit? Yes. Are we Holy? No. Will we be? Yes. When? When Christ appears and faith becomes fact. Until then, we have a comforter. If we had the Spirit, we would not be confused. Jesus knew we would be confused. Why? Satan was coming to deceive the nations. He MUST be removed before we can have all things revealed.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


"He MUST be removed before we can have all things revealed." Quote EnochWasRight

"Passion, like the rain, floods the house.
But if the roof is strong, there is shelter.
Whoever allows impure thoughts,
Suffers in this world and the next.
In both worlds he suffers
And how greatly
When he sees the wrong he has done" Quote EnochWas Right (via Dhammapada)

Thoughts creating worlds??..indeed provided with a proxy-torturer...

Å99

Joecroft

Does Resurrected = Born Again?, and does one have to be Resurrected first, before one can receive the Holy Spirit?- JC

This is interesting, I see resurrected as not a 'Death becomes Her scenario' and you (as Jesus purportedly did) overcome the physicality of Meryl Streeps mortal remains. I see the resurrection process as that of reincarnation, or the soul progressing through various lifetimes as human. Perhaps the idea of recieving 'the holy spirit' is one of progression and at a certain point finally achieves the enlightment to recombine with the entire idea of "ONE Absolutum" (and then there is "Defending Ones Life" Meryl Streep again, as Joan of Arc etc), I think we do this every single time we get back to the non matter/body human state of Absolutum. Ignore this Joe Im just starting to rev the non linear abstract motorsisms and they will be very broad until I can 'pin' it down.

adjensen
reply to post by Joecroft

 

As far as I’m aware, this is the general standard Christian view, right across the board, with no exceptions.

I've never heard an orthodox Christian say anything else.
Christ says being born again is being born of the spirit, not the flesh, and a resurrected body is a fleshly one.

That being, the spirit never dies its an energyform, its eternal; it is born of star matter (of our Creator Being). At what point is it born again other than within a fleshy material body (on earth to give it dimension). The idea of a resurrected body is just a Metaphor for enlightenment; that the soul/spirit never dies.

akushla99
Why incarnate a blessed splinter of yourself, to then require it (in some godly form of disownership) to seek 'salvation' from a situation it did not put itself in? Å99

Not just a splinter if you include China and Indias populations, Id say more an arm or leg. The Almighty One must be of the 'tough love variety', or it is really doing a visionquest to discover itself in the form of the human, I would have suggested a simpler lifeform--Algae or plankton Id almost call this psychopathic. Just need the manuals (but there are so many) whom or what to believe? If the microscopic material plasma 'out there' in that percieved vacuum started to organise itself, and became self aware as a 1 or 0 blinking on and off--would it not start a physical lifeform on earth as a simple one cell being. Im convinced that we are immitating our creator in our discovery of 'how to convey information' in the most direct way possible; forget the human at this point--way down the road.

reply to post by Joecroft


Joe
Yahoshua never said anyone had a new birth.He said you must be born from above or on high and to enter into the Kingdom Of God which is a realm not a place.It is called the Kingdom of heaven when God is living in "Gods heavens" those "heavens" are mankind.None of this has happened fully.

Mankinds existence in the physical realm is the "begining" of conception.Yahoshua outlined it in the parable of the soils and seed.Yahoshua is the seed(the living word of God...not to be confuse with the "bible") the soils (Adam..adamah which means red clay) are the flesh ...more metaphoricaly the eggs.When the "seed" is sown into the good soil it grows and produces a good tree with good fruit that multiplies.The other soils do not grow the seed into good trees that produce good fruit that multiplies.No ths is not the "lost".No one is lost all will receive salvation(growth) .

As the prelude to the explanation of the parable Yahoshua said only "the disciples" would understand this parable (and all parables)..because the paraable of the seeds was the key parable.In other words everything Yahoshua preached....the majority of all the gospels even the disciples didn't understand anything he taught when he taught .It wasn't until later they "began" to because the disciples where the firstfruits of the first fruit seed Yahoshua.

The parable was axoiomatic...you can't understand the parables (everything Yahoshua preached) unless the seed(Yahoshua which means Gods salvation) is sown in fertile good soil and grows to fruition.

In essence what Yahoshua said was when the seed is sown in the good soil and grows to a good tree it produces good fruit.THEN and only then what Yahoshua preached could be understood.They could not understand the parable of the seed(which essentialy was about them) or ANY parable UNTIL the seed was sown and the tree grew and produced good fruit.That is salvation which is a process not an event.The disciples are the first fruits.They had first hand experince of the process.

Yahoshuas teachings is not what changes anyone and for very good reason ...it is simply because no one understands any of them.When the seed is sown and produces a good tree and fruit then it is "known"...it is the process of salvation that changes (repents) mankind to "know" God (enter the Kingdom of Gods heavens) not following or believe a religious teaching.It's a process that has only just barely begun for most and ALL of mankind is still in the womb... they are not born from above and man certainly haven't grown to wise maturity.

John who knew Yahoshua better than anyone wrote in 1 John ....whomever is born of God does not sin.. and later says anyone who says they don't sin is decieving themselves.

Sin means missing and falling short of the mark of perfection.I am positive every human alive qualifies even though many think they don't.The reason everyone falls short is they haven't been born yet.They aren't matured ( a transaltion of perfection in the scriptures)They may be alive because the seed has penetrated the egg and conception has started however they aren't born yet.

Again these are all analogys(parables) because the "real" process can't be undertsood.Yahoshua and John says those that "sin" are "of" their father the devil.Not some relgious sillness about an evil spirit"tempting" them to be bad.Again a metaphor/allegory in relation to the parable of the seeds 3 infertile soils that can't produce a good tree and good fruit.

Paul calls this part of the process of salvation (growth)the earnest of the spirit...the downpayment.It is not complete.The good seed(spirit)..God is spirit not "a" spirit) has not either been sown in fertile soil or the seed has not grown enough to be born into the Kingdom of God heavens.

The problem is religion has created a theory(doctrine) based on a very faulty premise and the extrapolations have gone wild.The reality we can percieve should be very obvious.NO ONE is perfected therefore everyone is imperfect (sinful).The fact is there is NOTHING anyone can do (works) to cause this process to happen or acclerate.All the religious conjecture of being born again and sin free but NOT blah blah is all double talk from double minded carnal minds.

In one sense it is very, very simple.There is a God and YOU aren't God.God is doing everything the way God wills not the way man wills.It is all going according to plan and nothing anyone can do will screw it up... or fix it)it ain't broke).My suggestion is sit back enjoy (and endure) as much as you can this very,very short trip down the fallopian tubes as much as possible and don't tug on supermans cape or spit into the wind.

I guarentee trying to figure it out(or thinking you already have) is absolute futility.Billions before have been 100% wrong and billions still are.If I can philosphize a bit(this is not just directed at you Joe) ...turn off your light ...it is only more darkness

reply to post by Joecroft


He asked does Resurrected = Born again...

No.

Resurrection is the physical body. Born again is the inward man.

Nicodemus asked Jesus if a man can enter his mother's womb and be born again. Jesus replied "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the spirit, is spirit. The spirit is like the wind, it comes and goes and no man knows where it begins and ends."

When the sisters of Lazarus cried to Jesus about their brother, Jesus said "Do you believe in the resurrection?" They replied yes, the did, the resurrection in the last day, when all people who have died will come to life for the ultimate judgment. Jesus said "I AM the resurrection and the life, he that believes on me though he were dead, yet shall he live". Then He turned and called for Lazarus to come back to life.

To be born again means the inward man that is born, not of the flesh, but of the spirit. But there will come a day when the resurrected flesh will rise from the grave and be judged before the Great White Throne, or what we call The Judgment Seat of Christ.

The purpose of being born again, it is the renewing of the spirit, one that has been bound to the physical body and is not in fellowship with God. Through the renewing, one is brought back into fellowship because Jesus now reigns in us, because He stood at the door and knocked and we invite Him in our hearts. That's not the physical heart, that's the spiritual heart. And He comes in to fellowship with us.

Jesus said "No man comes to the Father but by me, if any man try to go up any other way, he is the same as a thief and a robber".

You can attempt spiritual paths all you want, but in the end, it's all about whether you are in fellowship with God. And if you tried another way up, then let that god be in fellowship with you. And if you don't know the god you are seeking, then how do you know it is God? Does the other god want fellowship with you? Has another god extended the invitation to you? Has any other god sent you the invitation to live eternally in its presence? These are questions you must answer before choosing your path. And since you want to be seeking another path, consider also, what is the judgment offered by that path?

The God of the Bible said it's this way, and not another way. This God is offering eternal life with Him in His presence. What else out there offers that? A place among stars? A place in the cold universe? Even the universe is natural, not spiritual.

Scientists can't even offer proof of life out there, they assume because there are so many stars and planets, but is there any evidence of it? So far, none. Even UFOs are debated as well as aliens, but what are aliens offering those who believe in them?

Born again means you are born of the spirit of God, that you now have the right to be in fellowship with Him.