Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

reply to post by Megatronus

I'm confused, are you saying you would rather not go to heaven ie: go to hell or oblivion, instead, simply on the basis that you would not wish for the Christian religion to be validated? That's absurd!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I'm confused, are you saying you would rather not go to heaven ie: go to hell or oblivion, instead, simply on the basis that you would not wish for the Christian religion to be validated? That's absurd!

Actually, I believe he was making a point about not wishing to spend all of eternity hanging around with anal retentive self-righteous pious sheep of narrow-minded self-denigrating subjugated sycophantic persuasions. Honestly, I agree with him. I would rather live a single life time than go through an eternity of that crap.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Isn't all that based on a great deal of assumption?

Maybe "heaven" is simply the domain whereby things just keep on getting better and better from life to life in eternity..

"No eye has seen nor ear heard nor the mind of man conceived what God has in store for those who love him."

It's typical narrow minded, atheist sycophantic naysaying which holds up the simplistic conceptions of fundamentalist conservative Christianity as a strawman argument.

By "kingdom of heaven" Jesus was differentiating from the earthly kingdoms, and when read thoughtfully and with discernment it becomes clear that he's referring to a domain that is formative and fruitful and one wherein the last are first and the first last such that those who exalt themselves will be humbled and those who humble themselves will be exalted (see the parable of the order of chairs at the wedding table for more).

I find you AI to be so presumptuous, and arrogant, and what a thing to deny eternal life only to prove a point which has no real basis in logic or reason, just bias.

Bear in mind too that there is nothing that is not and that therefore there's no escape, and so the question becomes one of where we came from where we are at and in what direction we're going, and that you would prefer annihilation, which may be impossible, than fellowship with God-lovers says much more about you than those with whom you eschew company and fellowship, and do you really think that human things like "I told you so" and "nah nah nah nah nah nah" are part of God's heavenly kingdom/domain?

You guys are hilarious!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I stick by what I said. Not a single word was posted without intention. And for any who were offended by my post, if the shoe fits...!

reply to post by windword

I think what is really being argued here is the belief that all things have to be taken care of in life. Some Christians believe that's the only window of opportunity. "If you don't get it in life, it doesn't matter how sincere and contrite you are when you meet your maker." The Pope is clearly decrying this notion.

Here's another translation...

First of all, you ask me if the God of Christians forgives one who doesn’t believe and doesn’t seek the faith. Premise that – and it’s the fundamental thing – the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience. Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action.

www.zenit.org... ign=Feed%3A+zenit%2Fenglish+(ZENIT+English)

As far as the last sentence, this is only clarification of what God would consider to be a sin, not whether or not they would be forgiven for it. So, in reality, it sounds like the Pope spent a lot of time in this letter avoiding the heart of the questions asked.

reply to post by Deetermined


Which doesn't change a thing. The Pope is still saying that God will judge based on the actions and sincerity of the one being judged, not on their faith.

reply to post by windword


Nothing in that paragraph has anything to do with salvation or judgment. It was a question about sin. The Pope only answered it by stating that God would consider anything that was done in malice as a sin, whether you're a believer or not. There was nothing stated relating to salvation.

reply to post by Deetermined


So, do you think that God would send someone he judged as sincere and contrite, who followed their conscience throughout their life, to hell?

What an interesting discussion. So the Viceroy of God has spoken, yet the bible itself disagrees with him. More than that, if we are to believe the bible is the word of God, then Jesus also disagrees with him.

John 8:24

24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 10:1

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 10:7-10

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me[a] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Many more verses could be quoted, but...

I think the bible is quite specific. You either accept Christ as the propitiation for your sins, and receive reconciliation to God through him. Or you die in your sins.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I stick by what I said. Not a single word was posted without intention. And for any who were offended by my post, if the shoe fits...!

Well then it was highly judgmental, presumptuous, ignorant, and rude, and arrogant as well.

reply to post by wrabbit2000


I'm sure that the Pope is correct... you don't have to believe in God to go to Heaven.

NOW, for the rest of the story: Once you get to Heaven you'll stand before God for judgement, then sentenced to exile from Heaven for not believing and trusting in Him. So, as you can see, you can get into Heaven if you don't believe in Him, but that doesn't mean you get to stay.

MikeGrouchy
Jesus loves two peoples. Those of faith, and atheists. It's the ones waffling around in the middle who can't make up their minds that are in trouble.

windword


What an entirely absurd idea! Jesus only loves 2 kinds of people, those who believe and those who don't believe? Those who "don't know" ie. agnostics, are in trouble? That makes no sense!

Absurd,
mistuned
undertuned
retuned
in tune

Call it what ever word you like.

And as to throwing all Agnostics
into the pit of trouble, why would
you do that? The ones that I have
met are very certain and follow
their conscience.

Mike

So, is belief in a creator/engineer adequate, or do we have to grovel as the Church likes us to do?

Underworlds
reply to post by wrabbit2000

 

I'm sure that the Pope is correct... you don't have to believe in God to go to Heaven.

NOW, for the rest of the story: Once you get to Heaven you'll stand before God for judgement, then sentenced to exile from Heaven for not believing and trusting in Him. So, as you can see, you can get into Heaven if you don't believe in Him, but that doesn't mean you get to stay.

Yeah, there's always some ridiculous lawyer's interpretation of a simple statement. You should go to law school.

reply to post by Klassified


So no cavemen went to heaven. Have I got that right?

Read it and weep religious folks!
I've always said that if there is a God and a heaven, then any person living a good life, doing right and helping others, not harming or killing others and generally being a decent person, then that would be enough for God.
No just and wise and loving God would want people singing his praises or judging people or rejecting others or persecuting others.

"God" is love. It is written.

It really is that simple.

Not a man in the sky, not an unseen, guiding universal force... No abstract concept, no complex riddle, no clever parable no rousing speech nor fire & brimstone.

But love. Just love.

When you have unconditional love for your fellow human beings, that is a very powerful thing.

That is all god is, literally...just love. Not a real, actual entity, just love.

The way to get to God (love) is through Jesus.
Jesus teaches, be kind, love thy neighbour, the meek are strong, even prostitutes and lepers are people, non violence is the answer, children are the future, money is evil.

All we need is love.


I'm not religious and i'm not preaching, just merely clarifying some things.
People think it's all terribly complicated and are trying to find and understand God.

God is simply love.

reply to post by Deetermined


It sounded like a bunch of gobbldy gook to me. I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

suz62
reply to post by Klassified

 

So no cavemen went to heaven. Have I got that right?

Neither the first, nor the second covenant would have been in existence yet. So it's up to the Jewish/Christian God as to whether or not they went to heaven.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

NewAgeMan

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I stick by what I said. Not a single word was posted without intention. And for any who were offended by my post, if the shoe fits...!

Well then it was highly judgmental, presumptuous, ignorant, and rude, and arrogant as well.

On the contrary, it sounds to me as though I hit scathingly close to the mark. Do you deny that a fair amount of "Christians" fit the description I so eloquently provided? As opposed to the loose, free, fun-loving adventurous sinners who will be residing in the burning lake of eternal damnation...now that sounds like my kind of crowd!

reply to post by AfterInfinity


If there were a hell it will be full of christians too, so you are pretty much screwed.
In fact that is where the self-righteous might end up.