Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

reply to post by logical7


My question is this, people claim god speaks in their head all the time. Particularly the schizo's, heck, they get daily briefings. How come in a couple thousand years, we (I use the term we loosely) only believe one or two actually have a direct connection with godphone, in their head, talking to them, in their head, hearing voices...

reply to post by logical7


A tip for debating the OP. Since Sahabi references nearly every damn post he is making in this thread, do them the favour of having an actual respectful debate, post your own sources, make an effort, trying not to look like a complete imbecile.

boncho
reply to post by logical7

 

A tip for debating the OP. Since Sahabi references nearly every damn post he is making in this thread, do them the favour of having an actual respectful debate, post your own sources, make an effort, trying not to look like a complete imbecile.

thanks for the tip but you see there are people who like to please and get pleased by very scholarly looking mumbo-jumbo when the same thing could be said in simple words. You see some people only get impressed by something when they cannot fully understand it

I rather believe in just using common sense and simple english. Thanks anyways.

reply to post by logical7

thanks for the tip but you see there are people who like to please and get pleased by very scholarly looking mumbo-jumbo when the same thing could be said in simple words.

Excuse me for interrupting...
did you NOT just a few moments ago say that you believed the "life-long scholars" more than you believe Sahabi's directed and specific investigations?

Make up your mind!! Oh ---
wait. That's right. You like to have it both ways. boncho has good advice for you there, bro.

Line item debate requires SOURCES. Where are yours?

boncho
reply to post by logical7

 

My question is this, people claim god speaks in their head all the time. Particularly the schizo's, heck, they get daily briefings. How come in a couple thousand years, we (I use the term we loosely) only believe one or two actually have a direct connection with godphone, in their head, talking to them, in their head, hearing voices...

good question.

The answer is simple humans can lie, can be crazy or could be telling the TRUTH.
You need to examine their claims and seperate the liars and crazy from the authentic Prophets.

For that a completely unbiased approach is needed that hasn't been influenced by MSM programming against any religion etc.

Makes sense?

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

thanks for the tip but you see there are people who like to please and get pleased by very scholarly looking mumbo-jumbo when the same thing could be said in simple words.

Excuse me for interrupting...
did you NOT just a few moments ago say that you believed the "life-long scholars" more than you believe Sahabi's directed and specific investigations?

Make up your mind!! Oh ---
wait. That's right. You like to have it both ways. boncho has good advice for you there, bro.

Line item debate requires SOURCES. Where are yours?

I don't like to have it both ways, i just like to have it the right way.

sahabi knows what i am talking about when i am replying him. At least he should if he claims that he has studied islam extensively.

Here is an online book if you seriously want to know about whats the real scholars say
web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/index.htm

i however don't see that it matters to you if the op is correct or crap which as i have pointed before is very odd indeed. The op and all who are on his side don't believe that Qur'an came from God yet are very eager to claim that it must be corrupted.
My point is, whats the point in trying to prove to people that their religion is wrong on one hand and talk about "all are one" blah blah on the other in the same breath.

Anyone who seriously studies the history of Qur'an compilation would see how the op is based on interpreting things a certain way to suit a purpose.

I have posted sources when needed to explain how the Qur'an was compiled and then i expect that the ones who are following this thread must have read it and remember it, especially people who claim to have an elephantine memory.

I have also tried to show the op how some points go against common sense and inconsistencies in his own arguments.

For example, the claim of Uthmani takeover

it must have been the best, most silent takeover in history of mankind
That even Uthman's enemies didnt know or used it as an accusation against him.
That somehow muslims all over the empire reciting parts of Qur'an 5 times a day and whole Qur'an at least once in Ramadan suddenly aligned their recitation and made the changes in their memory when Uthman r.a. Ordered to alter and corrupt the Qur'an and they didnt even become aware of it.

what sources you need for the above? Sources that say that muslims really pray 5 times a day or recite the whole Qur'an during Ramadan?

logical7
The answer is simple humans can lie, can be crazy or could be telling the TRUTH. You need to examine their claims and seperate the liars and crazy from the authentic Prophets.

And since Muhammad claimed that God told him about Adam and Eve, Noah, and Moses ... and since science, geology, sociology and archeology have all proven Muhammad WRONG ... guess that makes him a LIAR, doesn't it?


Face it ... Muhammad is like the school kid who didn't do his homework. He went and (poorly) copied off the homework others did, but unfortunately for Muhammad, those people got it wrong. So he just copied crap and claimed it was his own work.

It's just more proof Muhammad made up the crap he peddled to the goat herders and that it didn't come from God.

logical7
a completely unbiased approach is needed that hasn't been influenced by MSM programming against any religion etc.

A completely unbiased approach is needed that hasn't been influenced by indoctrination and programming by a religion. Look at it objectively ... large chunks of the Qu'ran and Old Testament are flat out WRONG. That makes Muhammad a liar and the Qu'ran a big fat lie. Use your own criteria .. look at the facts UNBIASED.

logical7

boncho
reply to post by logical7

 

A tip for debating the OP. Since Sahabi references nearly every damn post he is making in this thread, do them the favour of having an actual respectful debate, post your own sources, make an effort, trying not to look like a complete imbecile.

thanks for the tip but you see there are people who like to please and get pleased by very scholarly looking mumbo-jumbo when the same thing could be said in simple words. You see some people only get impressed by something when they cannot fully understand it

I rather believe in just using common sense and simple english. Thanks anyways.

Well, you are kinda like a holy book, or a religion in that way. See, you just want us all to take your word for it, but you are unable to back up your assertions with facts or sources.

No worries, it's not like this is anything new in a religious flame debate.

logical7

boncho
reply to post by logical7

 

My question is this, people claim god speaks in their head all the time. Particularly the schizo's, heck, they get daily briefings. How come in a couple thousand years, we (I use the term we loosely) only believe one or two actually have a direct connection with godphone, in their head, talking to them, in their head, hearing voices...

good question.

The answer is simple humans can lie, can be crazy or could be telling the TRUTH.
You need to examine their claims and seperate the liars and crazy from the authentic Prophets.

For that a completely unbiased approach is needed that hasn't been influenced by MSM programming against any religion etc.

Makes sense?

edit on 11-10-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

And tell me, how do you differentiate a thousand year old lie from a thousand year old truth? Deductive reasoning might be a means. Yet, I see none in the religious debate.

If god speaks to people in their heads, and this is recorded, a reoccurring phenomena if you will, we could deduce that this is surely due given the lapse between "prophets".

Yet, a more logical deduction, would be that these very convenient brain-phones to god, mysteriously all popped up during a certain period in history, one where, things like that were totally believable, and it could be a death sentence to oppose it depending on who was in power.

Simply look at the shift of paganism to christianity during the Roman empire. Clearly the right, true choice was not the objective. As one minute christians were being flayed at the spine, then pagans. Definitely not a scientific observation into the phenomena of our creator speaking to us, more like a dark political force looking to consolidate power and burn their detractors at the stake!

Go figure.

reply to post by logical7

Hate Mongering in Quran

I think I've figured out what ails you, my friend. Because you are not an apostate, you cannot discern truth from lies; and you are afraid of what your "perfect Book" says will happen to you (and all the rest of us), if we don't believe Islam:

Quran Surah 4: Women

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 14
For the disbelievers, We have prepared a painful doom. 18
For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 37
Hell is sufficient for their burning. 55
Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 56
Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 74
Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 76
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 89
Those who oppose the messenger and become unbelievers will go to hell. 115
Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe and disbelieve again will never be forgiven by Allah. 137
For the hypocrites there will be a painful doom. 138
Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers into hell. 140
The hypocrites will be in the lowest part of hell and no one will help them there. 145
You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 150-151
For the disbelievers, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 161
God will guide disbelievers down a road that leads to everlasting hell. 168-169

Wow, yeah, very peaceful, just, and merciful guy. Not. BULLY mafioso type. *shakes head*

No wonder you try so hard. You're trapped...and afraid that these nonsensical threats are 'real.'
A religion of peace?

"Believe me or you will burn forever in hell!" What adult falls for such nonsense? Oh...wait. The ones who are too weak to think for themselves and DISBELIEVE a tyrannical warmonger's rantings.

Sigh

reply to post by wildtimes


falseislam.org? hahaha!
Did i tell you about a site called deismsucks.org and americansarestupid.com.
You'l get to know all the truths from those

and you then complain why muslims don't take you as an intellectual or open minded individual.

Come on wildtimes, i didnt expect this from you. There was a time when i really respected you and looked forward to discussions with you.

FlyersFan

logical7
The answer is simple humans can lie, can be crazy or could be telling the TRUTH. You need to examine their claims and seperate the liars and crazy from the authentic Prophets.

And since Muhammad claimed that God told him about Adam and Eve, Noah, and Moses ... and since science, geology, sociology and archeology have all proven Muhammad WRONG ... guess that makes him a LIAR, doesn't it?


Face it ... Muhammad is like the school kid who didn't do his homework. He went and (poorly) copied off the homework others did, but unfortunately for Muhammad, those people got it wrong. So he just copied crap and claimed it was his own work.

It's just more proof Muhammad made up the crap he peddled to the goat herders and that it didn't come from God.

FF, with all respect. Why don't you first take it up with your fellow christians that also believe the old testament stories.
You are saying that Jesus pbuh walked on water but Moses pbuh couldn't part the water?
Jesus pbuh himself talks about Abraham pbuh and Moses pbuh in the NT, so was he also using and believing myths?

The stories in the Qur'an are for the moral lessons that can be learnt from them, not to waste time in arguing if they are true or not and missing the whole point.
Only God knows what really happened before humans started recording history and even when they did start, history is always biased depending on who is writing it.

No science is actually full proof in finding what really happened. Its all based on observations of available but scattered evidences that can equally be interpreted wrongly.

You also do the mistake of thinking that the Qur'anic stories are the same as OT stories without actually having read them. The emphasis of Qur'an is never on dates, location etc, rather the lessons in it. Try it and i know you'l agree with the lessons.

logical7
Why don't you first take it up with your fellow christians that also believe the old testament stories..

- Because this thread is about the Qu'ran.

- And yes it DOES matter that the Qu'ran talks about them. Since the stories are false .. ALL VERSIONS of the stories ... then that means the Qu'ran is false. It's just that simple.

logical7
There was a time when i really respected you and looked forward to discussions with you.

You know that kind of passive/aggressive thing doesn't work with us educated western women, right??

boncho

logical7

boncho
reply to post by logical7

 

A tip for debating the OP. Since Sahabi references nearly every damn post he is making in this thread, do them the favour of having an actual respectful debate, post your own sources, make an effort, trying not to look like a complete imbecile.

thanks for the tip but you see there are people who like to please and get pleased by very scholarly looking mumbo-jumbo when the same thing could be said in simple words. You see some people only get impressed by something when they cannot fully understand it

I rather believe in just using common sense and simple english. Thanks anyways.

Well, you are kinda like a holy book, or a religion in that way. See, you just want us all to take your word for it, but you are unable to back up your assertions with facts or sources.

No worries, it's not like this is anything new in a religious flame debate.

I'l try and put sources when it seems necessary. I am using a phone and its enough pain to quote and put links etc, much more to put external texts and links.

reply to post by logical7


So do those verses from "falseislamhahaha" appear in the Quran? Or not.
Not my problem you're too scared of a phony "devil" invented by Zoroaster to combine all the various Persian gods (some good, some not so much), and the phony "hell" invented by corruptions of the ideas of Sheol (a simple place of shadows where EVERYONE who dies was thought to go by ancient Jews), and Gehenna (where Jerusalem burned their executed criminals - and garbage). "Hades" was also not "hell." It was a placename - named for its ruler "Hades" who was an Olympian God (of the Greeks). He was the one who decided where souls would go after death (to pleasantry or toil). He was not evil, and it was the Greeks who introduced HIM to the evolving mythology of the Middle East.

Face it, logical7, and have the stones to ADMIT IT. You. Are. Afraid. Period.

You so deperately need to believe you are RIGHT (ego) because you're AFRAID, and you really don't have much to go on -- certainly NOT the common sense you keep espousing -- only your wishful, narrow-minded, self-serving "faith" that Quran is actually true and correct and if you follow it to the letter you will be spared from Hell.

It isn't true, or correct, or uncorrupted, or from God, and Gabriel didn't talk to Mohammed. All Mohummed did was add more twists and turns to a VERY unoriginal story that had predated him by thousands of years, and was an effective tool to scare people into submission and have his way. He just wanted to have his way. Same as you do.

His 'prophecy' was built around dozens of older, previous MYTHS which had started way BEFORE Judaism came to be...and developed throughout the centuries, and got turned into a fantastic horror story by people who wanted POWER (and continues to be propagated by people who want POWER). NONE of it is original, or even that smart.

Stars are lamps that get fired at demons in the sky?

Are those verses in the Koran, or ARE THEY NOT? It doesn't matter whether I found them on Sesame Street, or FalseIslam, or TheThinkingAtheist, or AllahDirect.com --- All that matters is that THEY EXIST, that Muhammed is supposed to have "uttered them" in the name of God via Gabriel (yeah. right) and that nowadays people are EXPOSING THEM, and WHAT THEY SAY as the same tripe that the monotheistic cults have spewed and elaborated on since Zoraster. Lame.

It's pathetic. But, carry on. I'm sure we'll never change your mind, seeing as how we are only humans who AREN'T afraid of your fake eternal damnation, and therefore must be WRONG. And you call yourself an educated man.

DO THOSE VERSES EXIST OR NOT?

reply to post by logical7

Come on wildtimes, i didnt expect this from you. There was a time when i really respected you and looked forward to discussions with you.

LOL!! Oh, lucky me.
Damn it all, guess I blew it. Your profound respect for women couldn't override your childish beliefs in false stories - because you're too afraid, and the discussions failed because YOU refuse to admit the weaknesses in YOUR religion.

reply to post by boncho

And tell me, how do you differentiate a
thousand year old lie from a thousand
year old truth? Deductive reasoning
might be a means. Yet, I see none in
the religious debate.

yes there should be more deductive reasoning.
I do however have a question for you. The opinions you have about Islam, i am assuming you made that after listening to information that was provided to you. Did you check for its truthfulness before accepting it?

Simply look at the shift of paganism to
christianity during the Roman empire.
Clearly the right, true choice was not
the objective. As one minute christians
were being flayed at the spine, then
pagans. Definitely not a scientific observation into the phenomena of
our creator speaking to us, more like a
dark political force looking to
consolidate power and burn their
detractors at the stake!

Go figure.

you are going into deductions without taking into consideration all the variables.
I have tired to explain it earlier on ATS.
Just because something is/was abused, does not make it automatically false.

If the church hijacked and altered the teachings of Jesus pbuh and used his name wrongly, it does not mean that Jesus pbuh wasn't sent by God.

Its about more important matters. If death is the end then nothing matters. If its not then we sure need guidance about what we should expect on the other side. If u keep building on these logical deductions, you'l reach some questions, whose answers you will find in basically all abrahamic scriptures.

reply to post by logical7


Here, log, I did the first one for you. I went to search "quran surah 4". And ....

WAIT FOR IT>>>>>

LO and BEHOLD!! ("Lo" means "listen"):

quran.com...

Sahih International
14: And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits - He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment.

Yup! Sure as crap! THAR SHE BLOWS~!~

So...NOW what's your excuse for it?

What the hell, I'll do the next four for you as well, from the same source (quran.com)

Sahih International
18: But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.

37: Who are stingy and enjoin upon [other] people stinginess and conceal what Allah has given them of His bounty - and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment -

55:Sahih International
And some among them [who had received Scripture before] believed in it, and some among them were averse to it. And sufficient is Hell as a blaze.

56:Sahih International
Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Yup! They're in there. Regardless of where I saw them first.

And now for the bolded part in my other post of these verses:

Sahih International
150: Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between -

Sahih International
151: Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

THIS sounds like a noble and honest TEACHER?

Right.

reply to post by logical7

Did i tell you about a site called deismsucks.org and americansarestupid.com.
You'l get to know all the truths from those

Dammit! I just took my open mind to check them out...because I'm a GROWNUP, who can handle such things as they might have said. But ---- They don't exist!!!

:EYEROLL:

falseislam.org, however, is real, and contains LOTS of information and links.