Cairo Military Crackdown on Reuters Livestream: 14/08/2013

reply to post by ipsedixit

Mubarak was ousted in a coup that was, without a doubt in anyone but a cretin's mind, instigated by "outside" interests. The so called "Arab Spring" provided convenient cover for this, as it did for the ouster of Gaddafi in Libya.

You're right. The Muslim Brotherhood instigated it with support and help from U.S. and Western interests both public and private. Just as they did Tunisia and later, Libya. Same as it happening now in Syria. One of the key money men for the Egyptian coup against Mubarak was a Google employee of all people. Talk about showing what mischief can come from Googles "20% policy" and rich hands to work with on it.

Primarily though, it was outside ...Muslim Brotherhood isn't particularly native to Egypt as it's become in the modern version. It's really a pretty motley crew of the rejects, street fighters and fanatics of the region.

Now you say elected ..and I say selected by lack of any viable option after the legitimate Government under Mubarak had been violently removed ...in large part, by those same people who replaced it. A coup by any other name is still a coup. So is a Counter-Coup.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

You're right. The Muslim Brotherhood instigated it with support and help from U.S. and Western interests both public and private. Just as they did Tunisia and later, Libya. Same as it happening now in Syria. One of the key money men for the Egyptian coup against Mubarak was a Google employee of all people. Talk about showing what mischief can come from Googles "20% policy" and rich hands to work with on it.

Primarily though, it was outside ...Muslim Brotherhood isn't particularly native to Egypt as it's become in the modern version. It's really a pretty motley crew of the rejects, street fighters and fanatics of the region.

Geez, could you try a little harder? The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Ismailia, Egypt by Hassan al-Banna in March 1928.

Military aid — which comes through a funding stream known as Foreign Military Financing — has held steady at about $1.3 billion since 1987. Economic aid, on the other hand, has fallen by more than two-thirds since 1998.
www.propublica.org...

And then there's the support given to the Egyptian military by our very good friends in Saudi Arabia. So which side is the US supporting again?

The demonstrations against Morsi’s government were entirely organized and orchestrated by the armed forces and the three plotters-Saudi Arabia, Israel and America- poured billions of dollars to ensure its success.
www.colombotelegraph.com...

reply to post by frazzle


Why yes. I do try. Thanks for noticing. You may even notice I stated, in clarification at the time, "In it's present version", in relation to M.B. origins and Egyptian background as an organization. Points of clarification are lost on some people tho....even though I do still try.

If you take Military aid as the indicator? Well hell... We support everyone and no one and so do the Saudi's to almost the same schizophrenic degree. The US sent a billion or more a year to Mubarak. They sent a Billion or more a year to Morsi and the same billion or more a year will go to whomever replaces him. The band plays on and nothing ever really changes where that concerned. (Kinda like how Reagan was supporting Iraq to fight Iran while sending Iran HAWK Missile systems to fund the Contras in Nicaragua. Games within Games)

The Saudis play the same game though and probably learned a good bit of the finer points from us in 1990/91 from direct observation, I'm afraid. Stupid is as Stupid does...but only after watching Stupid in action.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by frazzle

 

Why yes. I do try. Thanks for noticing. You may even notice I stated, in clarification at the time, "In it's present version", in relation to M.B. origins and Egyptian background as an organization. Points of clarification are lost on some people tho....even though I do still try.

If you take Military aid as the indicator? Well hell... We support everyone and no one and so do the Saudi's to almost the same schizophrenic degree. The US sent a billion or more a year to Mubarak. They sent a Billion or more a year to Morsi and the same billion or more a year will go to whomever replaces him. The band plays on and nothing ever really changes where that concerned. (Kinda like how Reagan was supporting Iraq to fight Iran while sending Iran HAWK Missile systems to fund the Contras in Nicaragua. Games within Games)

The Saudis play the same game though and probably learned a good bit of the finer points from us in 1990/91 from direct observation, I'm afraid. Stupid is as Stupid does...but only after watching Stupid in action.

Step back a moment and think about US support for anyone in recent memory ~ why is it that rather than support the American people or set policies that would be good for the American people AT HOME the government flings OUR money at whomever is playing their MILITARY game against everyone who doesn't like our corrupt money system. Its all about forcing them to use our money to keep the banks solvent.

What's stupid is that the American people support US policy while its tearing other nations asunder and our own infrastructure rots on the ground. But maybe its because Americans are already stuck deep into the matrix of the central bankers who have driven the world's economy into territory from which it will never recover. And misery loves company. So the band plays on as the bodies pile up for filthy lucre's sake.

All I'm saying is that maybe we should worry more about what has become of the United States Republic "in its modern version" and let others worry about their own versions of their own institutions and policies and deal fairly with all of them. Uh, too easy.

reply to post by frazzle


Now your last point I will agree 100% with. We each have our own opinions about Egypt and it's future but ultimately they should be nothing BUT opinions to everyone outside Egypt with those who live the consequences. I support the Egyptian Government and would love to see the Muslim Brotherhood hard in the past tense of history because my nation, the US, isn't giving anyone a 3rd option of just staying out of it and making peace with whomever comes out on top ...without our help or "approval". The perfect world would be to do nothing but watch all this on TV as a news story with no more personal interest than that, if we don't live there. Remember when people watched news that way? lol.....

Heck, I was and still am a Ron Paul supporter (at heart if not behind a campaign anymore). One of his key positions was the disengagement from world affairs with our military and "Diplomacy by other means". It's one of the core things I came to love and respect about him. He really meant it for the right reasons.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by frazzle

 

Now your last point I will agree 100% with. We each have our own opinions about Egypt and it's future but ultimately they should be nothing BUT opinions to everyone outside Egypt with those who live the consequences. I support the Egyptian Government and would love to see the Muslim Brotherhood hard in the past tense of history because my nation, the US, isn't giving anyone a 3rd option of just staying out of it and making peace with whomever comes out on top ...without our help or "approval". The perfect world would be to do nothing but watch all this on TV as a news story with no more personal interest than that, if we don't live there. Remember when people watched news that way? lol.....

Heck, I was and still am a Ron Paul supporter (at heart if not behind a campaign anymore). One of his key positions was the disengagement from world affairs with our military and "Diplomacy by other means". It's one of the core things I came to love and respect about him. He really meant it for the right reasons.

I know you supported Ron Paul, as did I. But until we adopt his hands off policies on foreign countries it will remain US policy that's at fault, not Egypt or Syria or Iran or any of the rest of them. If we don't clean our own house first there will be wars all over the place and sooner or later there will be war right here at home. No one will be more to blame for that than those who said its okay for our policies to get people killed elsewhere.

Why is it that India and Russia and China and South America and Brazil were able to deal with Morsi diplomatically but the US and its allies must take the violent route? My own perspective on that is that violence has always been America's preferred route and its a road so well traveled by now that we can follow it blindfolded. And we do.

Another interesting tidbit about Morsi ~ he was a 9/11 "truther".

Apparently, Morsi isn't too big on the idea that Al-Qaeda struck America on September 11, 2001. He believes 9/11 is a sacred myth that serves to legitimize Washington's counter-terrorism policies at home and abroad, as do most Egyptians, by the way.

disquietreservations.blogspot.com...

The Blasphemy!!!!!

reply to post by frazzle


Ummm.. When did we suddenly re-write history to say the US was against Morsi?? This is the same US that those who replaced Morsi damn near threw out of Cairo for the wishy washy 'maybe we support ya and maybe we don't' response?

I think Morsi being ousted was one of the worse days in the White House and probably pissed off the people around Obama more than Benghazi ever did. Progress to the ultimate end goal was set back badly in losing Egypt from the 'cause'.

After all, the West looks and thinks "Nation Building! Let's GO!". Morsi and particularly those he represents around the region look and say "Caliphate Building! Insha'Allah!". The two goals are mutually exclusive. Our side just hasn't wised up to that yet, IMO.

Good riddens to the scum Morsi and his
brotherhood minions

Hope the egyptian military shoots every one of them!
After all they were trying to become Egyptiran.

When will these Muslim brotherhood lunatics learn to leave ordinary people be,
to live normally and to do what they dam well please.

With in accepted norms.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Ummm.. When did we suddenly re-write history to say the US was against Morsi??

What they do is one hell of a lot more important than what they say, you should know that.

Ever heard the phrase "oppose what you propose and propose what you oppose"? But they'd never lie to you like that.

You said on another thread that the people support the Egyptian military ~ where exactly did you hear that? LOL, like our bought and paid for media would actually interview anyone from Egypt who supports Morsi.

It's after dark in Cairo now and watching on the Livestream one can see emergency vehicles out on the street. I'm not sure what happened, or if things will heat up again.

www.livestation.com...

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Ummm.. When did we suddenly re-write history to say the US was against Morsi??

What they do is one hell of a lot more important than what they say, you should know that.

Ever heard the phrase "oppose what you propose and propose what you oppose"? But they'd never lie to you like that.

You said on another thread that the people support the Egyptian military ~ where exactly did you hear that? LOL, like our bought and paid for media would actually interview anyone from Egypt who supports Morsi.

Well, I'm not sure where you find it funny that the removal of Morsi was at the behest of the Egyptian people. Were we watching entirely different events just a SHORT short time ago??? Are we this bad now for saying what JUST happened isn't what really happened??



That is a picture of the celebrations complete with fireworks across Cairo at the news Morsi was removed from power by the Egyptian Military.

After five days of giant protests demanding the resignation of President Morsi, the Egyptian Army toppled him and appointed the head of the Constitutional Court as interim president pending new elections.

The fall of Mohamed Morsi marks the end of the Muslim Brotherhood’s predominance in the Arab world, all the more since the Army announced its deposition by surrounding itself with the life forces of society, including "scholars" of the al-Azhar University.

Morsi’s failure is a hard blow to the West and its allies, Qatar and Turkey. Therefore, it is logical to ask whether it does not mark the end of the "Arab Spring" as well as the new upheavals in Tunisia, Libya, and of course in Syria.

Source

Morsi coming to power WAS the Coup that Washington largely supported and called a New Dawn for the Egyptian people. This story estimates 22 million Egyptians signed a petition against Morsi as their numbers in the streets grew. This one from clear back at July 1st captures the initial feeling and mood of the growing crowds and the depth of their demands that Morsi be ousted.

We can play like the Public loved Morsi. That was actually half way true in the start of his near year long period as a ruler there. By the end? They were celebrating by the millions in the streets ...with fireworks..to see him removed by force.

Not every Military move is an evil one and not every motive of a man in Uniform is a corrupt one. Egypt is a rare case where I think their own military stepped in to do nothing less than save the future of their nation.

Governments/Military opening fire on their own citizens - Disgusting behaviour. Absolutely shameful.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Currently Egypt is being run by the military. They have appointed a spokesperson,

www.nytimes.com...

. . . Adli Mansour, a senior judge seldom seen since his appointment five weeks ago by Gen. Abdul-Fattah el-Sisi, the military commander.

Calling the group that currently is in control of Egypt a government is a stretch in my opinion.

Here are the 2012 Egyptian election results.

Morsi is the legal president of the country if democracy has any value. He was elected in a result that was very similar to that seen in many US elections. He got 51% of the votes cast, by the 33% of the electorate who bothered to vote.

en.wikipedia.org...

By the way, the Egyptian Air Force flies F-16s. That is not an irrelevant fact.

edit on 14-8-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)

[/quote

It's a shame they didn't decide to implement proportional representation, then both sides would have some power and influence. That's the only way to settle this now.

reply to post by ipsedixit

What disturbs me about this is the way the US and US media played and spun this from the day the Morsi government fell after the largest demonstrations in history. It was all pro-Morsi with the word Coup used over and over again, as if the US interest was to support the deposed leader and the Muslim Brotherhood, that the people rose up against, en mass, to depose, largely because they felt that he represented the rise of an Islamist autocracy.

I have the sense that this backlash of Morsi supporters has been fomented, that's what my instincts tell me very strongly.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
Governments/Military opening fire on their own citizens - Disgusting behaviour. Absolutely shameful.

And that appears to have been the desired result/outcome by interests in alignment with the Muslim Brotherhood.

It is disgusting. I don't understand why the interim Military government couldn't have used non-lethal means to disperse the crowds.

And again I think this Morsi supporting backlash was fomented by shadowy operators in alignment with the M.B.

It makes me mad when I know that there's other stuff going on behind the scene which leads to blooshed.

Like the war in Syria which was I believe started by CIA elements with their hand up certain puppet groups.

There's much more going on here than meets the eye.

reply to post by ipsedixit


The proud normal everyday non lunatic people of Egypt started demanding Morisy and his Muslim Brotherhood step down over them getting busted talking on live TV about how their real enemy is the U.S. and Israel, what they plan to do about that and their neighbors who they blame for stealing water.

The Egyptian people wanted no part of a Terrorist Government like Hamas or Hezbollah that would start trouble with Israel or worse. They said Oh hell no, get out!!!

The military had no choice to step in and remove these terrorist supporting scumbags. I wish ours would do the same.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


Precisely, it was the will of the people with whom the military are very much embedded in Egypt.

But note how CNN has played this from day one and all the way along...

the Egyptian Army toppled him and appointed the head of the Constitutional Court as interim president pending new elections.

Why?, Why even bother having new elections since the election results can obviously be so easily overturned by protestors and military intervention? Will they just keep having elections until someone is elected who the military approves of?
Wouldn`t it be easier to just let the military appoint someone they approve of?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Well, the Egyptian Government has been warning and warning again for days if not a couple weeks. They've been trying through every means available and possible to tell the Morsi supporters to disperse. Stop the public demonstrations. The Morsi supporters say 'over their dead bodies'. Well? Egypt will grant them their wish if that is how they feel about it. Good for them. This can't go on forever and the terrorists need to accept that Egypt is for Egyptians. Not for them.

Wow. So you are against public demonstrations now. Good to know.

So if a government doesn't care for its people demonstrating, it is justified in killing them? That is what you are saying, isn't it? In fact you're saying "good for them" to the military junta killing protesters demonstrating against the overthrow of a democratically elected government. More over you seem to be calling all of these demonstrators terrorists. What is with that? Egyptians are protesting and they are being killed by a military that is furnished arms with US money. Seems the real Egyptians are the ones you are calling terrorists. The military is just the tool of the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia and the other stinking rich Gulf monarchies.

You like to complain about Obama, but I don't hear you raising a fuss that the US State Dept. has come out and said that it doesn't have to acknowledge that this recent coup against an elected government was a coup, because then it would have to cut off military aid. So I guess you like Obama when he is supporting illegitimate governments in other countries, in which the military is killing the citizens. Cognitive dissonance.

reply to post by MrInquisitive


You realize you spent the WHOLE message telling me what I actually said, meant to say or was thinking ...and not a single bit of it reflects what I have actually said? Well, the fact I call them terrorists was accurate, but that was almost accidental, I'd think.

Now, I have nothing against demonstrations and that ought to be obvious enough by what I've personally been a part of.

The Muslim Brotherhood are terrorists. They've been a group literally at war on and off with the Egyptian Government for well over half a century and weren't even legal in the nation until 2011. Some make them sound like a peaceful protest group ...which is about as outright provable a lie as one could utter. The history of their "peaceful" efforts are long, distinguished and easily shown.

Now in this case, they've illegally been protesting and camping in Cairo. They been warned for over a week as I've been watching the reports, to break up the camps because they WOULD be broken up by the military if they refused. They ignored it and deadlines passed before the military finally moved.

By the way.. for a PEACEFUL movement they had a hell of a lot of AK-47's among them. (CNN and others are broadcasting quite a bit of footage right now) :shk:

Some "civilian protest" that turned out to be. The protest camps were what the military claimed them to be. The rifles showed that clearly enough and Egypt isn't Iraq where every house gets to have one.

Now I'd say they make this group of terrorists illegal AGAIN...after seeing that allowing them to join the process in 2011 has pretty well been a failure. I suppose it's back to the fighting the M.B. have been running against the Cairo Government since the 50's and before. It's been a long fight we need to stay out of....as usual.