Cairo Military Crackdown on Reuters Livestream: 14/08/2013

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


All I did was quote you, and take you at your word, and show how extreme your thoughts on this matter are.

You said that all of these demonstrators are terrorists, did you not? You said the demonstrators had it coming because the government warned them, did you not? You also seemed to say that the pro-Morsi people are not real Egyptians, did you not?

What did I get wrong exactly? Looking back, I misunderstood one of your uses of "them", so I guess you didn't say "good for the Egyptian military killing the pro-Morsi demonstrators", but rather you meant "good for the demonstrators dying for their cause at the hands of the US-backed Egyptian military junta. Not a lot of difference in fact.

You called the demonstrators terrorists accidentally? That's a very compelling argument.


I'm not arguing that the pro-Morisi faction is in large part the Islamic Brotherhood, and that a portion of this organization is militant in nature and even conducts some terrorism. One could make the same argument of Sinn Fein and its former IRA connections. Does that mean Sinn Fein didn't have legitimate grievances and that it should have no political rights?

The Islamic Brotherhood isn't the only political group that has been banned for decades. The problem is that the US (and before that the USSR) have supported military dictators in Egypt and all dissenting political parties have been oppressed, if not banned. And now the IB supporters are up in arms -- literally and figuratively -- because the government they brought to power through legal means has just been toppled in a coup by the US/Israelii-backed Egyptian military. Isn't this just the IB exercising its "2nd Amendment rights" to defend against a tyrannical government? I never claimed the anti-coup faction is using only peaceful methods? Why should they? The democratically elected government was removed by force. Why should they not use force as well to fight back against the military junta that conducted the coup?

Baredi, a moderate VP (?) of this new coup-backed regime, just resigned because of the extreme violence this junta is using to suppress dissent. That should tell anyone watching these events that this junta does not necessarily have the interests of the Egyptian people in mind.

reply to post by MrInquisitive


You call them demonstrators. I call them terrorists and an armed insurgent force within Egypt's national borders now that they've openly pulled long rifles to fight properly with the military. They were outlawed in Egypt until just before Morsi came to power. Again....there aren't "peaceful demonstrators" among those people in the street right now.

You might recall..these are the same "peaceful demonstrators" that threw a teenage kid off a structure, killing him for simply being among those celebrating Morsi's removal from power.

Now, what you're doing is mischaracterizing what I'm saying. Have I said every last person on the street should be rounded up and summarily executed? Nope... I have said that taking the Muslim Brotherhood leadership alive in the arrest sweeps they made was likely a mistake. Those are fighters, not diplomats in many cases. They'll just be commanders to face in fighting later. Every individual on the street though? No.... Murder isn't my cup of tea. Even for terrorists...which is what that would take.

You have sympathy with the side that was removed. That's clear enough while I absolutely have NO sympathy for them. Perhaps agreeing to disagree would be the better thing here.....as we seem to be worlds apart on just about every topic, on almost every thread as I've noticed.

reply to post by MrInquisitive

The military ousted Morsi after millions of Egyptians massed in the streets at the end of June to call for him to step down,

In the 'we want morsi back' demonstrations were people who were wanted by the police on charges hiding amongst the protestors, or even leading them?

The mosque has served as the epicenter of pro-Morsi campaign, with several Brotherhood leaders wanted by police believed to be hiding inside.

Were they arrested or just killed?

Among those seizedwere Brotherhood leaders Mohammed el-Beltagy and Essam el-Erian, and hard-line cleric Safwat Hegazy — all wanted by prosecutors to answer allegations of inciting violence and conspiring to kill anti-Morsi protesters.

Are there two sides to the story?

The pro-Morsi Anti-Coup alliance claimed security forces used live ammunition, but the Interior Ministry, which is in charge of the police, said its forces only used tear gas and that they came under fire from the camp.

The Interior Ministry statement also warned that forces would deal firmly with protesters who were acting “irresponsibly,” suggesting that it would respond in kind if its men are fired upon. It said it would guarantee safe passage to all who want to leave the Nasr City site but would arrest those wanted for questioning by prosecutors

.


So were they arresting people?

A security official said 200 protesters were arrested at both sites. Several men could be seen walking with their hands up as they were led away by black-clad police.

Was the police using tear gas?
.

Police fired tear gas elsewhere in Cairo to disperse Morsi supporters who wanted to join the Nasr City camp after it came under attack.

police used tear gas to disperse pro-Morsi crowds in the city center.

Lots of tear gas for a police intent on murder of innocent people huh....

So just how innocent were they?

Clashes erupted on two roads in the capital’s upscale Mohandiseen district when Morsi supporters opened fire on passing cars and pedestrians.

But even then:

Police used tear gas to chase them away

So maybe in the instances the police had to use live ammunition it was for a reason? It always helps to get BOTH sides of a story....

Was this side simply state approved rhetoric?

The security officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to media.

and yes, people were allowed to leave the sit-ins peacefully without arrest or harm...

An AP reporter saw hundreds of protesters leaving the sit-in site carrying their personal belongings.

I will leave you with this...

The trial of the Brotherhood’s leader, Mohammed Badie, and his powerful deputy, Khairat el-Shater, on charges of conspiring to kill protesters is due to start later this month. Badie is on the run, but el-Shater is in detention. Four others are standing trial with them on the same charges.

Always get two sides... at least then you have something to go on rather than one person's view



The side that is being fought are such sweethearts aren't they?

Clashes broke out elsewhere in the capital and other provinces, injuring more than 1,400 people nationwide, as Islamist anger spread over the dispersal of the 6-week-old sit-ins of Morsi supporters that divided the country. Police stations, government buildings and Coptic Christian churches were attacked or set ablaze.

Source:

www.timesargus.com...

Originally posted by frazzle


I'm wondering if you would say the same thing if the US military did the same thing here, you know, calling ordinary citizens terrorists and throwing them in prison without just cause. Just sit down, shut up and stop protesting bad laws and unlawful detentions. And pay special attention to who has all the guns and tanks and F-16s.

Go home and cower under your bed while the IMPORTANT Americans with big guns make all your decisions for you.

Incidentally, the Egyptian "government" is the one that was elected, they didn't grab power from the elected government at the point of a gun.

Its an upside down world.

It's always going to be upside down for some one at some point. Personally I think the world is finally turning right side up..and those who have been used to being on top, are now finding themselves underneath and are still trying to figure out what happened. Folks now on top are still blinking as the sun gets in their eyes..its going to take a bit to focus. Bet they didn't see that pole shift coming huh? hehe....anyway. I don't think your analogy applies here.

In this case, the people of Egypt, being naive ( experientially) to the democratic political process and in rushing into decision making due to the level of social instability, in voting in Morsi, they where duped into allowing the MB to unofficially declare Egypt an Islamic state. which is NOT what they were voting for. When that mistake became clear, they took to the streets again and have demanded new elections be held. Morsi refused to step down and allow them. It was clear in the first days of government that Morsi intended to do away with secular Egypt..something he and his cronies had sworn not to do during the campaign.

The people of Egypt haven't waited for a second sign, sat in apathy and hohummed in the face of moral relativism as their just won and hard earned civil rights were stripped from them again, they rallied at the first sign of trouble and have en mass stood up and empowered their military to act in defense of their secular and human rights...which they have done.
Like any newborn life form, if Egyptian democracy and civil society is to grow in democracy, then their understanding of what is at stake before they vote also needs to grow..this is how they learn why..and how and this experience they are having now, will eventually help that process. As that awareness of responsibility grows, they will slow down and become more mature, if allotted time to become it..without external interference.

Also, any future government candidates ought to be learning from this experience too, that the people WILL stand up and they will empower the military so if any more silent coup's are planned..then they too can expect a nasty revolt. This may stop a full blown civil war later ( or lead to one ) and this process of military obeying the people instead of politicians is the very essence of government BY the people FOR the people..the majority of Egyptians are essentially doing in their country, what the US congress was supposed to be doing in yours!

The US equivalent to Egypt today would have been US populations rising up en mass against George Bush junior as he wrote off the bill of rights and shat on the declaration of independence, or when he refused to sunset the patriot act. Instead of rising up as a people, you allowed him and consecutive governments to effectively legislate out of any usefulness the only formal and legal political power you have over them, the Constitution..which included among other things, your legal and civil *responsibility* as citizens TO stand up to the government when any branch of government tries to do this to you all!

Not much point coming here whining about how your rights are gone if you stood by and let them go smiling and waving as they did..not much point being happy in ignorance when its your job to stay awake. How can any one living in an oppressed state look at Egypt and say what they are doing is bad and what you/we did is better? Their actively vigilant, politically aware and alert ( the price of freedom) population have just kicked out two sets of assholes in two years..I say good on them! I applaud their decision. I don't applaud the means or the use of violence..but I also get that this is where Egypt is at right now..and we have to meet them there..not impose some fantasy of what we expect them to be..especially when its obvious we don't or we struggle to uphold those standards under pressure ourselves.

You didn't consciously vote to install a president who would remove your human and secular civil rights did you? That tidbit of Bushes real policy and agenda, and his intention to do just that wasn't mentioned in his campaign was it? Same deal in Egypt. In the US, well...Bush did it anyway and ppl are only just now coming to see the extent and cost of that FIRST acquiescence to complacency in not taking him to task with the tools you have at your disposal..so you have increased the chance of eventual all out civil war in the US, not reduced it, where as back in Egypt, they saw Morsi effectively doing just that and from the get go they have risen as a body politic and aren't going to take it lying down and whine about it later. In acting, they have reduced the likelihood a full blown civil war will be necessary. Bush began the screwing over of the US people..Obama's continuing it only like Bush, he's wearing a political condom when he does it..so you think you're safe. Egyptians seem to know what being done over feels like with or without 'protection' and they aren't buying into the lie of it..good on them!

Either way, we can try to help Egypt in this political birthing process, grow up ourselves and see it for what it is and try to look at it how people from older and more ordered nations must have felt watching the civil war go down in the US or we can look at Egypt from outside, point at them in judgment and say how ugly this is how immature and barbarian the whole thing seems..and write them off...not once looking in the mirror...to see what they are gaining and we are missing.

It is fubar..it is horrible that it is even necessary..but Egypt is not the US..and its people as newly 'free' beings, are not being complacent anymore than the new citizens of the US were when that constitution was written, They *know* what they are fighting for.

What #s me most is that when ppl in the US did begin to stand up to alert you all of the responsibility you have to the political process in the US, THEY were hounded down...instead of support, they were ridiculed..as tree hugging hippy pacifists...commies and socialists..et al etc....you saw them exactly as the CIA worked so hard to get you to, as the faceless labels the government wanted you to see them as - not as the US citizens they were, standing in peaceful defense of the constitution. If both peaceful defense is bad and to be ignored and bloodshed is bad and to be judged..then what is it exactly you'd consider "good"?

babbling..sorry.


Ro

I kind of expected this on ATS actually, barely a thread about yesterdays events and the threads there are have idiots saying things like "well who cares, it's the Muslim brotherhood".
A couple of thousand people were mowed down and massacred yesterday, reporters on the ground confirmed this and also confirmed are the field hospitals with dozens of bodies in each of them that aren't in the 'official' count.

A sky tv cameraman was also killed by government forces.
A lot of bad things are happening.

A democratically elected leader was just recently removed from his job.
I'm no fan of the Muslim brotherhood, much like most people, but I am a fan of democracy and feel that it should be the correct process for removing politicians we don't care for.

Yesterdays massacre would have everyone on here going crazy and there would be 50 threads on it with people screaming for action, were it not Muslim Brotherhood supporters who'd been killed.

What a pathetic state of affairs.

reply to post by stargatetravels


You can sit in the comfort of your living room and judge whatever you like however you like. The fact is you aren't there, you aren't getting both sides of the story, you don't actually know who killed who, and you have never sat with a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and spoken to them or learned anything of their views....

The majority of the egyptian people, I am talking majority here, have the right to the country the way they want, and they do not want Morsi after seeing him and his policies in action...

It is not our place to force the majority of 82 million people to live with leaders they do not want or like once they saw what it was really all about....It is our place to stay out of the business of others when it is not our call, it is theirs.

You can cry for the dead, recite Al-Fatiha for them.... but don't ever think its your place to force unwanted leadership upon 82 million people.

Originally posted by stargatetravels
I kind of expected this on ATS actually, barely a thread about yesterdays events and the threads there are have idiots saying things like "well who cares, it's the Muslim brotherhood".
A couple of thousand people were mowed down and massacred yesterday, reporters on the ground confirmed this and also confirmed are the field hospitals with dozens of bodies in each of them that aren't in the 'official' count.

A sky tv cameraman was also killed by government forces.
A lot of bad things are happening.

A democratically elected leader was just recently removed from his job.
I'm no fan of the Muslim brotherhood, much like most people, but I am a fan of democracy and feel that it should be the correct process for removing politicians we don't care for.

Yesterdays massacre would have everyone on here going crazy and there would be 50 threads on it with people screaming for action, were it not Muslim Brotherhood supporters who'd been killed.

What a pathetic state of affairs.

edit on 15-8-2013 by stargatetravels because: (no reason given)

This would be fair if the ppl of Egypt HAD the social maturity, the institutions. political tools and registered bodies or even a new constitution organized TO have had the means to bring about the changes in any other manner other than open revolt..they DON'T and if Morsi had had his way, they would never have. This is why people hit the streets in the first place..because he WOULDN'T listen to them and set those tools in place for the people. Even with no tools per say, there are other ways, and sure we can yell ' you should have done xyz' at them..but I genuinely think the people are doing their best with what they have.

Keep in mind this is a birthing democracy not one already established. If they had those things in place and functioning, you could point from a greater moral high ground and say " hey, you had another way and made a choice not to use it your scumbags"..you would have a basis for holding them to account for this type of action...but they don't have that like the people of the US do.

Don't get me wrong I think the military is wrong in shooting people..period....its self defeating and wrong to kill anyone as far as I am concerned..it will come back to bite..but take a look at what our militaries are doing 'in our name'? We/some have empowered them to go to war on 'our' behalf...did we empower them to commit war crimes too? I sure as hell didn't! Maybe the people of Egypt will look at their military and set some tighter boundaries in light of this? Maybe they wont I don't know..but it should've given them a wake up call to the consequences of not doing that as first order of business.

Shooting opposition is never good...it only breeds idols, hate and resentment...it sullys the soil of new growth and yes, a life is a life..whoever it is, a precious thing. I think there is room though, to ask yourself, as a citizen of a secular nation, would you, honestly, sit idle and allow an Islamic or any other religious or political group of the same absolutist ideology to take over your nation and set up a dictatorship?

If you say no, you wouldn't, then what would you do to stop them with the tools you have now?
What would you do if you had no tools? No constitutional legal right to "force a b*stard of the throne?" No military sworn to uphold and protect the constitution on your behalf?
The US was born as a nation effectively under these exact same circumstances...why judge Egypt now?
Were the deaths of thousands of citizens and soldiers a few hundred years ago to establish the seat of comfort US civilians occupy today, equally as meaningless, shameful, unjustifiable, immoral, wrong or bad and judge-worthy?

If so..why do you honor them?

While I cannot condone murder and won't, I also won't make the deaths of anyone during this time in Egypt meaningless by imposing my moral judgement on them, whatever 'side' those deaths are on..they are human beings, that's all that matters. I will just honor the struggle and I will honor their right to choose to fight for what they believe in and pray something GOOD comes of the loss.


Ro

Once the MB was overthrown and they (MB) showed no signs of wanting to work a dialogue, it was just a matter of time till the Military cracked down hard on them. This clash was inevitable. It's a power struggle the Military there will win. It's sad but at the same time, there was no other way this was going to go down. The MB and their supporters weren't about to legitimize the Military's takeover and the Military wasn't going to let the MB back into the political process. One side had to go........and it wasn't going to be the Military.

I thing Egypt and the Arab world in general want Democracy, but don't have the institutions in place to nurture it and allow it to grow. We take for granted all the things that exist that allow democracy to flourish. The concepts of "free press" "equal rights for men and women" "bi or multi-partizianship", ect. None of these really exist to a large extent in the Arab World. Even when there are free and fair elections, there are too many parties for one party that might represent the largest segment of the population to win an election. Instead, you end up with the MB's of the world who, while representing a much smaller part of society, due so with no opposition parties battling for their share of the vote end up getting the most overall votes. Problem with that is the MB's of the world, don't really want a Democracy and work towards setting up another dictatorship where opposition voices aren't allowed.

Freedom and Democracy isn't just given, it's earned. Usually with the cost of blood and tears till everyone gets on the same page. The MB wasn't going to be part of that page. If democracy is going to flourish, you can't have people like the MB get into power who then go about setting up their own dictatorship. 1111111


The real test will be when the Military has eliminated the MB from being a major influence of Egyptian Politics. Will the Military allow the civilian government to institute reforms that the Military may not like? I still hope the Egyptian Military are just caretakers who allow the Civilians to really work on a "national unity" government. There is the possibility that the Military will turn into the dictators too........then things get REALLY ugly.

Originally posted by pavil
The real test will be when the Military has eliminated the MB from being a major influence of Egyptian Politics. Will the Military allow the civilian government to institute reforms that the Military may not like? I still hope the Egyptian Military are just caretakers who allow the Civilians to really work on a "national unity" government. There is the possibility that the Military will turn into the dictators too........then things get REALLY ugly.

The first real test of any democracy...

good post.

Ro

Whew, sure are a lot of people around here who know what "regular, everyday Egyptians" want. What's amazing about that is how nobody knows what's going on right under their own noses but 5,600+ miles away, by damn we know it all.

As for what's going on right under your noses. How many NGOs operate on American soil? Do you know? Do you know what they're doing? There are thousands of them in every nook and cranny of American society and they're working hard on turning you all into good little global citizens/zombies.

Russia recently passed a law forcing foreign NGOs to at least report their sources of funding to the Russian government (mostly from the US, incidentally) and these folks are throwing a hissy fit that they don't still have free rein to interfere with Russian society without restraint.

Morsi tried passing similar laws and he even arrested some NGO leaders and deported others for working to undermine Egyptian society.

Oops, I guess he blew all that US government support the media keeps chortling about.

Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA) and Rep. Gerald Connolly (D-VA) today sent a letter to Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi expressing severe disappointment in the recent sentencing of 43 NGO workers, including 17 Americans, to jail. The letter pressed Morsi to immediately dismiss the charges and permit the NGOs to continue their important democracy promotion work unfettered.

The bipartisan letter was cosigned by 54 members of Congress.

votesmart.org...

And the rest, as they say, is history. Dig deeper than Fox News if you want to know the truth.

Originally posted by frazzle
Whew, sure are a lot of people around here who know what "regular, everyday Egyptians" want. What's amazing about that is how nobody knows what's going on right under their own noses but 5,600+ miles away, by damn we know it all.

I'm in contact daily with friends living in Egypt..everyday ordinary people...so yes, from the horses mouth I do know something about what ' every day' Egyptians are doing and saying..not everyone here comments in complete ignorance.

From the live feed posted in the OP it looks pretty crazy. Lots of cars on fire etc. That place is a mess right now....

reply to post by Rosha


Friends. Like your friends right down the street from you know what their local city councils, their local branch of he International Chamber of Commerce or local NGOs are doing to them, much less what the federal government is doing to them? Like you know all that.

My comments were not directed at anyone specifically, just sharing information to show that we do not know it all, we don't know a thing. Why did you take my remarks so personally?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
Governments/Military opening fire on their own citizens - Disgusting behaviour. Absolutely shameful.

And that appears to have been the desired result/outcome by interests in alignment with the Muslim Brotherhood.

It is disgusting. I don't understand why the interim Military government couldn't have used non-lethal means to disperse the crowds.

And again I think this Morsi supporting backlash was fomented by shadowy operators in alignment with the M.B.

It makes me mad when I know that there's other stuff going on behind the scene which leads to blooshed.

Like the war in Syria which was I believe started by CIA elements with their hand up certain puppet groups.

There's much more going on here than meets the eye.

edit on 14-8-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

I asked myself the same question, why didnt they use a force less lethal? No water cannons in Egypt, really!? I think you're on to something when you say there's more going on than meets the eye.

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by Rosha

 

Friends. Like your friends right down the street from you know what their local city councils, their local branch of he International Chamber of Commerce or local NGOs are doing to them, much less what the federal government is doing to them? Like you know all that.

My comments were not directed at anyone specifically, just sharing information to show that we do not know it all, we don't know a thing. Why did you take my remarks so personally?

edit on 15-8-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)

I know enough to know that the Egyptian people today, especially activists involved in this struggle for freedom and the political right to self determination, are some of the most politically engaged, informed and aware people on the planet...they do know...and they know exactly who has and hasn't screwed them over in the process..they are not a naive people or a complacent one. You can't judge them by projecting what its like in other body politics.

Originally posted by Rosha

Shooting opposition is never good...it only breeds idols, hate and resentment...it sullys the soil of new growth and yes, a life is a life..whoever it is, a precious thing. I think there is room though, to ask yourself, as a citizen of a secular nation, would you, honestly, sit idle and allow an Islamic or any other religious or political group of the same absolutist ideology to take over your nation and set up a dictatorship?

You hit the nail on the head with this. Look at what is happening, the Egyptian Military goes after the M.B., you would think the M.B. would go right after the Military, right? What does the M.B. do? Attack Coptic Churches..... Once a hard-line fundamentalist, always a hard-line fundamentalist I guess. Pretty soon they will be attacking tourists and Foreign reporters I'm sure or even worse, figuring out how to lob some stuff over to Israel.

There was no way the M.B. was going to integrate with the rest of Egypt's political scene. Every time they had a chance/choice to work on a consensus with the rest of the political groups in Egypt, they chose to just give themselves more power. Given that kind of scenario, the Military really didn't have much of a choice. It's not like the M.B. was ever going to change their stripes.

If there ever is to be a "real" Arab Spring those radical groups like the M.B. need to be treated like wolves in sheep's clothing. Those groups have no desire for a true multiparty democracy in their countries, they just want to rule.

There seems to be ample reason in retrospect, why the M.B. was banned in Egypt in the recent past........... Look at who the people who assassinated Sadat were offshoots from.

Just sayin.

Originally posted by Rosha

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by Rosha

 

Friends. Like your friends right down the street from you know what their local city councils, their local branch of he International Chamber of Commerce or local NGOs are doing to them, much less what the federal government is doing to them? Like you know all that.

My comments were not directed at anyone specifically, just sharing information to show that we do not know it all, we don't know a thing. Why did you take my remarks so personally?

edit on 15-8-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)

I know enough to know that the Egyptian people today, especially activists involved in this struggle for freedom and the political right to self determination, are some of the most politically engaged, informed and aware people on the planet...they do know...and they know exactly who has and hasn't screwed them over in the process..they are not a naive people or a complacent one. You can't judge them by projecting what its like in other body politics.

That diatribe could have come directly from an NGO propaganda sheet. Activists is exactly what they call themselves. And yes they can be judged in identical terms regardless of country because they are international by design and they work toward the same goals in every country. To promote globalism.

And let me add that many of them aren't aware that this is what they're doing, they've simply fallen for some slick marketing techniques.

Originally posted by frazzle

That diatribe could have come directly from an NGO propaganda sheet. Activists is exactly what they call themselves. And yes they can be judged in identical terms regardless of country because they are international by design and they work toward the same goals in every country. To promote globalism.

And let me add that many of them aren't aware that this is what they're doing, they've simply fallen for some slick marketing techniques.

edit on 15-8-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)

In the interest of not feeding a troll..in the interests of maintaining personal sanity... " Ok sure frazzle your soooo so right that is ALLL they are.."

ciao.

Ro

reply to post by Rosha


Salaam Alaikum...

www.silvergames.com...

^^^ Dont feed the trolls game.... practice makes perfect !

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Rosha

 

Salaam Alaikum...

www.silvergames.com...

^^^ Dont feed the trolls game.... practice makes perfect !

♥♥ salaam OpB..thanks for the smile, and take care..

Ro