Muhammad never preformed a single miracle his entire life

Throw in the part where Muslims believe that there religion will eventually be the only religion and well we end up with the mess we have today. Because islam is not tolerant of other religions i spent 2 yrs in Saudi Arabia you can be arrested for carrying a bible. This is the main reason why the west has such a lack of understanding towards muslims.westerners tend to accept other religions and Islam sees them as a threat. Sorry rambling anyway Islam is very rigid and takes over all aspects of a muslims life this concept is totally foreign to the west. As we see it its backwards and archaic problem becomes true believers will do what ever they have to if they figure its the will of god. And thats where it becomes scary as helpl!!!!!!!!

well muslims are victims before anyone else. who is beheading people in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and many other places !?
is not AlQaeda and Taliban supported by Saudi Arabia? those monarchies are oppressing people of middle east.
what west calls it arab spring was not for conquering the world. they wanted to be independent and less humiliated.
because of corrupted or puppet governments middle east is full of ignorance. full of terrors and wars.
the old repeated story. a minority is oppressing a majority in the name of religions, freedom and .......
monotheistic religions are all a threat for those in power. because Moses stood against Pharaoh, Jesus stood against the corrupted leaders of Israel tribe and Muhammad stood against the elites of Mecca.
so they should play with the card of monotheistic religions, unless those ideologies will play with them !
intolerance is the manner of dictators and Taghut.
if monotheistic religions were dictators, they could not attract so many people for so many years.
you should know that those deaf and blind terrorists are killing other muslims as some infidel and polytheists and of course justifying it by upside down commenting about Koran and Islam.
the same as what Israel is doing in the name of Judaism.
they just try to find and make the cultural infrastructures and to misuse it. somewhere in the name of freedom or democracy and somewhere else in the name of religions and ................. but the aim is just one thing. dirty power.

reply to post by dragonridr

Again, Arab/Palestinian claim to "Ownership of the land of Israel" has nothing to do with any Abrahamic covenant.

Let me repeat that more clearly: No arab says "This land is ours because we were chosen as the descendants of Ishmael" (unless they're being facetious in response to a Jewish claim along the lines of Isaac).

This isn't a thing.

Palestinian claim to the land is usually along the lines of "It is our land, we live/d here".

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Again, Arab/Palestinian claim to "Ownership of the land of Israel" has nothing to do with any Abrahamic covenant.

Let me repeat that more clearly: No arab says "This land is ours because we were chosen as the descendants of Ishmael" (unless they're being facetious in response to a Jewish claim along the lines of Isaac).

This isn't a thing.

Palestinian claim to the land is usually along the lines of "It is our land, we live/d here".

Here this might help obviously there is claims being made.

Allah says in the Quran Chapter 3 Surah Ale-Imraam verses 67-68:Ibrahim was neither a Jew, nor a Christian; but he was a Muslim; sound in his faith, and he was not of those who set up partners with Allah. Surely, only those people who follow Ibrahim, are entitled to claim a relationship with him. Now this Prophet (Mohamed) and the Believers are better entitled to this relationship. Allah is indeed the Protector of the Believers.

Really doesnt matter either way the whole covenant with god thing is well BS any way. Its just an excuse to fight over territory. If you wish to look at it logically the people who have been there the longest is indeed the jews even the Quran acknowledges this and even confirms the pact made to Ibrahim. This just puts them in an absurd position saying the quran is the word of god. But on the other hand they want the jews out of Israel. So there was 2 methods used over the centuries one claim lineage or two say they diserved to lose it do to there unwillingness for Jihad pick one.

reply to post by dragonridr

It isn't obvious, and no such claims are being made. I don't know how many different ways I can say this...
The Abrahamic covenant as a reason why muslims/arabs/palestinians have a right to the land has NEVER been used seriously as an argument. If you can find a single verifiable quote from any Palestinian or Arab leader, or even Palestinian or Arab cleric that uses the Abrahamic covenant as a reason why muslims/arabs/palestinians have a right to the land, I'd be happy to stop repeating myself.

And your translation of the verse was a bit cumbersome. Allow me to provide an easier to read (and more accurate, if you ask me) translation:

Surah Al-Imran 67-68
Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; but he was true in his submission (to the Will of God), and he was not one of the idolaters. Verily, the people closest to him are those who follow him, and this the Prophet and the faithful. And God is the Protector of those who have faith.

Now this is not to say that Muslims don't believe they are part of the covenant with Abraham. They use it as part of the justification of Muhammad's prophethood (in the sense that he was descended from Ishmael), and even today do their part of the covenant (circumcision). But they do not use it as "an excuse to fight over territory". Their (the Palestinians') "excuse" is "We live/d here, this is our home".

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by dragonridr

 

It isn't obvious, and no such claims are being made. I don't know how many different ways I can say this...
The Abrahamic covenant as a reason why muslims/arabs/palestinians have a right to the land has NEVER been used seriously as an argument. If you can find a single verifiable quote from any Palestinian or Arab leader, or even Palestinian or Arab cleric that uses the Abrahamic covenant as a reason why muslims/arabs/palestinians have a right to the land, I'd be happy to stop repeating myself.

And your translation of the verse was a bit cumbersome. Allow me to provide an easier to read (and more accurate, if you ask me) translation:

Surah Al-Imran 67-68
Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; but he was true in his submission (to the Will of God), and he was not one of the idolaters. Verily, the people closest to him are those who follow him, and this the Prophet and the faithful. And God is the Protector of those who have faith.

Now this is not to say that Muslims don't believe they are part of the covenant with Abraham. They use it as part of the justification of Muhammad's prophethood (in the sense that he was descended from Ishmael), and even today do their part of the covenant (circumcision). But they do not use it as "an excuse to fight over territory". Their (the Palestinians') "excuse" is "We live/d here, this is our home".

First of all palestinians have no claim to anything they didnt exist until Yasser Arafat created them they are nothing more then people who immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 18th and early 19th century to find work.Ever wonder why all the housing looks temporary with very few permanent buildings? The people that did live there owned houses and land and well still do. When Israel was formed they didnt eject anybody who owned property they either bought it or there family still lives there. But were digressing off topic as you your self state yes they do consider themselves an Abrahamic religion along with judaism and christianity.Thus once again the problems convert back to Abraham as i pointed out. Now you took it a step further and made some claims of your own but still bottom line is this is a battle for land. And one more thing since your an expert you do realize there are 3 different versions if Islam fighting for the middle east. And the Sunni whole heartedly believe they have a covenant with god.

reply to post by dragonridr

Originally posted by dragonridr
First of all palestinians have no claim to anything they didnt exist until Yasser Arafat created them they are nothing more then people who immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 18th and early 19th century to find work.

Yes, of course, the people who lived there, and who's families lived there for generations are all imaginary. They don't exist, and never did.

Originally posted by dragonridr
But were digressing off topic as you your self state yes they do consider themselves an Abrahamic religion along with judaism and christianity.Thus once again the problems convert back to Abraham as i pointed out. Now you took it a step further and made some claims of your own but still bottom line is this is a battle for land.

Indeed, we are digressing a bit, so lets get back to point. All three are indeed Abrahamic, and indeed, there is a battle for land, but the claim you made was that it was the Abrahamic covenant (i.e. that God promised the land to the seed of Abraham) that Muslims use as religious justification for their ownership of the land.

I'm just pointing out that that is absolutely and completely false.

1. The land belongs to the Jews not the Palistinians (Philistinians.)

2. Islam came almost 700 years after the people of the Book (Jews and Christians.)

3. Islam is a hodgepodge of different religions with things knitted together to make it seem relevant and meaningful.

4. The Quran contradicts itself so many times that the term "abrogation" was created to allow for inconsistencies and contradictions to be had.


I notice that whenever a issue arises with questions on Islam, that hordes of Christians bashers immediately start talking against Christianity. To me that shows that they have absolutely no argument as they go right off topic from the word go.

The story of Muhammad as told by history depicts a poor man who was picked up by a wealthy merchant woman, and who couldn't read or write. She was the head of the house as it were. He began to suffer from epilepsy and had many convulsive fits whereby to cover up this malady they began to say he was having angelic visitations. He had a preoccupation with young girls as he began to be his own man and this would be a big part of his life's obsession.

Eventually the first parts of the Quran were written in his name for him and the beginnings of Islam began to rise up. When they went to the Jews claiming to be the prophet of God, they were rejected and so it was abrogation time as all Jews were then worthy of death. Next they went to the Christian fathers and were rejected as heretics and so abrogation took effect as it was death to the Christians where ever you may find them.

Through the years Islam has devolved into a carnal religion where the goal is to gratify one's self in sex, dominating people, and killing for allah, and all in the name of allah. Look at how all they do is kill each other all the time. Not only do they wage war with the western nations but they slaughter each other all the day long. That's because in Islam it's all about death, dying, and killing. It's about having your neighbors goods, their women, and making them your slaves. The Islams have made and fought more wars in the past twenty years than the non Islamic nations have in the past 100.

Oh, and yeah, Muhammad never performed any miracle which means he had no special powers of any kind.

Hey Fromabove!

Originally posted by Fromabove
1. The land belongs to the Jews not the Palistinians (Philistinians.)

Adherence to a religion doesn't give anyone rights to land, sorry.

Originally posted by Fromabove
2. Islam came almost 700 years after the people of the Book (Jews and Christians.)

3. Islam is a hodgepodge of different religions with things knitted together to make it seem relevant and meaningful.

And Christianity came over 1000 years after Judaism, and is a hodgepodge of different religions with things knitted together to make it seem relevant and meaningful. What is your point?

Originally posted by Fromabove
4. The Quran contradicts itself so many times that the term "abrogation" was created to allow for inconsistencies and contradictions to be had.

Rather than ask you to point out any such, which would be useless, considering how little you know about Islam, I'd instead say "Yeah, just like Christianity".

Originally posted by Fromabove
I notice that whenever a issue arises with questions on Islam, that hordes of Christians bashers immediately start talking against Christianity. To me that shows that they have absolutely no argument as they go right off topic from the word go.

When a Christian starts attacking Islam from a point of their own faith, you think it is surprising that the counterpoint is "Errr...check your own faith first"?
When someone points out a supposed lack of miracles on the part of Muhammad, you think it is surprising that the response is "What about all these OT Prophets?"?
When a Christian points to Islam as something uniquely bloody and violent, you think it is surprising that the counterpoint is "Errr...what about the indescriminate slaughter at the hands of Moses and Jericho and other Jewish leaders and the early Christian kings and the Crusades and the Inquisitions and Witchhunts and even Jesus's promised bloodbath near the end of the world?"?

Muslim history has had its share of blood. But it is certainly not any more than Jewish or Christian history, and likely much less.

reply to post by babloyi


WOW..! Anyways, Christianity is a continuation of the linage of Abraham, the Jews, and to the Gentile acceptance through Christ, but you knew that already. It has teachings that came from it's ancestral roots all the way to Abraham.

I read the Quran. I know all about who and what Islam is. I studied it for my own knowledge. I agree with none of it because it sooo contradicts itself over and over. And I can't ever even think to follow the teaching of a man who took little pre-teen girls as wives and commanded his armies to take what they want and so forth. Have you not read historical accounts of what he did to people? Explain that if you can.

The only contradictions in Christianity are those that are contrived and preconceived to ease the mind from what is coming one day.

reply to post by OneManArmy


How could a book dictated to Muhammad by God himself have inconsistency's are you saying God who made the Universe was not knowledgeable of Science.....or are you saying the person who wrote the Quran was unsure like most people of his time? In other words was Muhammad talking bs and God has actually nothing to do with either him or his book

reply to post by Fromabove

Hey Fromabove!
More digressions, but hey, what the heck, right?

Originally posted by Fromabove
WOW..! Anyways, Christianity is a continuation of the linage of Abraham, the Jews, and to the Gentile acceptance through Christ, but you knew that already. It has teachings that came from it's ancestral roots all the way to Abraham.

Indeed it did. As does Islam, which is a continuation of the lineage of Abraham and the Jews and Christ.
See, the same way you won't accept my statement, the same way Judaism would not accept your statement.

Originally posted by Fromabove
I read the Quran. I know all about who and what Islam is. I studied it for my own knowledge. I agree with none of it because it sooo contradicts itself over and over.

And I've read the Bible, and I know all about who and what Christianity is, etc., contradictions, etc., right back at you.

PS: You do realise that the Holy Spirit supposedly impregnated a pre-teen to give birth to Jesus, right? And then John married her and (depending on your denomination) had many kids as well. You've read about the "dashing of babies heads on rocks", and killing off and burnings of towns by the OT prophets simply for not believing in the same religion? That one Jewish king was actually reprimanded by God for not killing everyone? You also realise that Jesus will return for a bloodbath, where people of every nation will suffer and mourn death, and then he will rule with an iron rod? Yes?
THOSE incidents are clearly written out in your Bible, unlike these supposed "historical accounts".

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Fromabove

 

Hey Fromabove!
More digressions, but hey, what the heck, right?

Originally posted by Fromabove
WOW..! Anyways, Christianity is a continuation of the linage of Abraham, the Jews, and to the Gentile acceptance through Christ, but you knew that already. It has teachings that came from it's ancestral roots all the way to Abraham.

Indeed it did. As does Islam, which is a continuation of the lineage of Abraham and the Jews and Christ.
See, the same way you won't accept my statement, the same way Judaism would not accept your statement.

Originally posted by Fromabove
I read the Quran. I know all about who and what Islam is. I studied it for my own knowledge. I agree with none of it because it sooo contradicts itself over and over.

And I've read the Bible, and I know all about who and what Christianity is, etc., contradictions, etc., right back at you.

PS: You do realise that the Holy Spirit supposedly impregnated a pre-teen to give birth to Jesus, right? And then John married her and (depending on your denomination) had many kids as well. You've read about the "dashing of babies heads on rocks", and killing off and burnings of towns by the OT prophets simply for not believing in the same religion? That one Jewish king was actually reprimanded by God for not killing everyone? You also realise that Jesus will return for a bloodbath, where people of every nation will suffer and mourn death, and then he will rule with an iron rod? Yes?
THOSE incidents are clearly written out in your Bible, unlike these supposed "historical accounts".

"Is anything too hard for me..." (Quran) on birth of Isa. If then therefore God created Isa as He did Adam how is Isa not God's son. And if Isa was created by the will of God, and God is Spirit, how then is it that such a conception was not the holy act of God's Spirit? Yet you still deny Isa (Christ) and say that He was just a man. That's because of the contradiction in the very words of the Quran itself.

Islam is it's own creation, sort of like shape shifting, and has no part in Abraham, the Jews, or Christianity. But it is mentioned in the Bible in Daniel and identified and "neither the God of his fathers (Abraham) nor the desire of women (Jesus), but is the god of forces and fortresses, a foreign god to whom he (anti-god and anti Christ) shall honor.

From the book of Daniel "the Prophet".
"And he shall think to change the times and the laws (Sharia law) and shall divide the land for gain (destruction of Israel). And he shall exalt himself up against the God of Gods and the Prince of the host(Jesus).

Islam is talked about and identified. It's a religion of the sword, war, conquering, division, and fighting against God.

Originally posted by Fromabove
"Is anything too hard for me..." (Quran) on birth of Isa. If then therefore God created Isa as He did Adam how is Isa not God's son. And if Isa was created by the will of God, and God is Spirit, how then is it that such a conception was not the holy act of God's Spirit? Yet you still deny Isa (Christ) and say that He was just a man. That's because of the contradiction in the very words of the Quran itself.

I don't deny anything. Just because I created a computer program, doesn't mean it is my son. Is Adam God's son? If yes, then sure, so is Jesus, so am I, so are you, and so is everyone.

Originally posted by Fromabove
From the book of Daniel "the Prophet".
"And he shall think to change the times and the laws (Sharia law) and shall divide the land for gain (destruction of Israel). And he shall exalt himself up against the God of Gods and the Prince of the host(Jesus).

Sounds like European Colonialism to me, actually. Even the part about "exalting himself above God of Gods and Prince of the host"- You know what "host" means, right? ARMIES. For WAR. European Colonialism did quite well in indoctrinating itself and its colonies into servitude without needing all that much war.

Again, To put it crassly and simply,
Anyone who would follow the 'teachings' of a known drug abusing paedophile...
Well they're clearly stupid beyond belief...

But then again that 'religion' did give us;
Continued use of barbaric stoning to death,
The 'legal' punishment of a doctor making someone blind,
The calling of the mass genocide of jews,
The legality of men being able to hit women,
The encouragement of Paedophilia,

I could continue the list, But the thought of these people sickens me.

To end though, A drug abusing paedophile warmonger would never be blessed with a gods touch

Originally posted by LUXUS
are you saying the person who wrote the Quran was unsure like most people of his time? In other words was Muhammad talking bs and God has actually nothing to do with either him or his book

edit on 14-8-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)

That is exactly what Im saying.

Originally posted by Fromabove

1. The land belongs to the Jews not the Palistinians (Philistinians.)

2. Islam came almost 700 years after the people of the Book (Jews and Christians.)

3. Islam is a hodgepodge of different religions with things knitted together to make it seem relevant and meaningful.

4. The Quran contradicts itself so many times that the term "abrogation" was created to allow for inconsistencies and contradictions to be had.


I notice that whenever a issue arises with questions on Islam, that hordes of Christians bashers immediately start talking against Christianity. To me that shows that they have absolutely no argument as they go right off topic from the word go.

So on that basis, maybe its time to give the USA back to the native americans.

I mean if you are going to go back 5000+ years to a claim that is based on a promise made by God(in a book written by the same people that promised the land to themselves), then who is really crazy.

I mean to think that sort of thing in a world of superstition is forgivable, but to think that in the modern world is just crazy.

As for bashing christians as a response to people bashing islam, I only do it to make a point that to single out any one for ridicule is as ridiculous as the religious dogmas themselves.

Originally posted by LUXUS
reply to post by OneManArmy

 

How could a book dictated to Muhammad by God himself have inconsistency's are you saying God who made the Universe was not knowledgeable of Science.....or are you saying the person who wrote the Quran was unsure like most people of his time? In other words was Muhammad talking bs and God has actually nothing to do with either him or his book

edit on 14-8-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)

Bingo you get the door prize religion was needed at a time i suppose to maintain control. The problem is we are out growing it, well some of us anyway. The bible was written by man the qur'an again by man. Ive always found it funny how we can show when they were written by whom they were written yet somehow god did it.

Originally posted by AmmonSeth


To end though, A drug abusing paedophile warmonger would never be blessed with a gods touch

So GW Bush isnt blessed with the touch of god I presume?

Strange how a majority of the USA voted for him not only once but TWICE.
Id say that was pretty damn blessed by something.

Just to lighten the thread slightly here is a scene from the Life of Brian (We can make this without getting stoned),
www.bing.com...

Talking of getting stoned here is another,
www.bing.com...

And as for religious freedom fighters,
www.bing.com...

Suicide terrorists (pre explosives)
www.bing.com...

Now i have lost any moral high ground I think i will skidadle for a while and watch out for the stone's.
However to my fellow christians brian keeps saying he is not the messiah.