I don't buy this "theory" of gravity.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Yeah dude you are 100% on the right track ............ but the fact is that GRAVITY is a MYTH..... the Earth Sucks .... thats a fact

Rather than not getting the Irony, as sarcasm, which is far more humorous and far less evident here seems beyond your comprehension, I think the appropriate word is Naivete at the idiocy involved in the trolling. Of that I am guilty, but no more
Thanks for showing a noob the ropes though.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


The reason we have not been pulled into the sun, is because our orbital momentum prevents it. We are traveling at an enormous speed orbiting the sun. Yes this orbit is changing because of the sun, how ever over time as our sun's gravitational field becomes weaker we may very well fly off into space, or become completely enveloped in it, when it expands into a red giant.

Another interesting example of gravity is our moon, it's getting further and further away from us every year. Wanna know why? Gravity, every time the moon is pulled around the earth it is accelerated ever so slightly causing it to travel farther away from the earth. There will be a day many many many millions of years from now, Earth's moon may escape it's gravity.

Did you like drop out of highschool or something?

Birds fly by creating enough lift to overcome the force of gravity, this is why they flap their wings genius.

Helium balloons float because they are lighter then the predominant components of the atmosphere which are all held in place by gravity. Pour some oil on water, it floats because it is "lighter" than water. Same basic concept with gasses mate.

Seriously, this is as far as I cared to read, you are just ranting about things that a proven, repeatable and understood by many.

I agree, the theory on gravity is broken, but not because of any of the reasons you have stated here today.

Funny thing about gravity, when you understand the concept of how it works, everything you mentioned before hand makes sense.

How ever, when you dive into the maths involved with gravity, it becomes increasingly difficult to explain. There are certain anomalies we can find, that we don't really understand. For instance black holes. They have never been observed, there entire existence is based on the fact the current theory supports it. How ever, they can not be observed so we can't refute their existence either.

Dig deeper, I understand where you are coming from, but you chose some extremely poor examples. I sincerely hope you weren't fishing for stars, because many feel gravitational theories are busted but very few have read more than a few ridiculous conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience articles regarding the fact.

Originally posted by chr0naut


Where do I start?

Electric fields are limited in range. If they weren't then they would be stronger than gravity in the macro-world and we would have flying vehicles powered by electric fields alone - we don't. Gravitation between masses may not be as strong but it is universal. 100% of all mass that exists in the universe attracts all other mass in the universe (as far as we know). The same cannot be said for electric fields.

Any theory that "stood on its own" would probably indicate that the theory did not actually relate to any other. The fact that the "theory of gravity" does not stand on its own perhaps indicates that it is integral to an almost complete description of the observed universe.

Gravity has been harnessed, recreated and proven to exist. One example of this is the orbital mechanics that got us to the moon & back and that keeps the communication and GPS satellites in orbit. Gravity happens as an emergent property of the mathematics that describe space, time and forces. the wonderful thing is that we can also observe gravitational effects and confirm the details of those mathematical descriptions.

While gravity is weak (compared to the other three forces) at atomic scales, it does exist and is intrinsic to the atom.

Why question how gravity is possible when we can measure it? Gravity is not only possible, it is actual (unlike dark matter which we can't measure or sense in other ways, but can only calculate).

The four fundamental forces are strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electric and gravitation (in order of strength) not electric, chemical and material. 'Chemical' and 'material' forces are a combination of the four fundamental forces. A scientist (physicist) would talk in terms of the four forces rather than 'chemical' and 'material' forces.

Only your final sentence is logically consistent. Similarly, if we dispense with science, then there is no science.

edit on 19/7/2013 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)

Paragraph 1
Electromagnetic force is over 10^40 times stronger than gravity. It has been proven over and over again at all levels. That is out of mainstream science. As a footnote - without the electrical nature of the atom we would not be able to fly at all. Fuel may power an engine but electricity keeps it turning.

Paragraph 2
A theory that stands on its own is a good solid workable theory. Look at Electric theory. Stands on its own, is predictable, proven, and does not rely on any other theory. It is written in stone and does not change because it explains all possible scenarios. it is complete in that there are no new "surprises" or "mystical revelations".

Gravity is integral because science can not explain it otherwise especially within the theory itself.

Paragraph 3
Getting to the moon does not prove gravity. It only proved we can get there.
You are right in that gravity is an emergent property of the mathematics. And that is where the problem lies. Gravity is based on a mathematical model instead of scientific principle. Mathematics while a useful tool is a property of the abstract space. The foundation of gravity is also of the abstract space.

Unfortunately and far too often, mathematics is the cart before the horse. Scientific theory would be less mystical if they got the physics right first.

In contrast the effects of electromagnetic force are not only readily visible, we can create the current and magnetism at will. And we do it everyday by simply turning on a light or any other electronic devise. The commercial value alone validates good science.

Anything can be an emergent property of mathematics. But this is not physical proof which science proclaims to hold dear. The scientific method/principle states 1- observe, 2- collect data, 3- develop a theory, and 4- disprove the theory. No one has bothered in mainstream science to disprove gravity. It not only fails the scientific method, it seems scientists have dispensed the science with gravity (pun intended).

Newton himself never tried to disprove his own theory but he was not aware of atomic theory. He just kept going. But still he should have been flagged back then.

Paragraph 4
All text books and theory state plainly it is electromagnetic force that hold the atom together. If what you say is true, then it would affect the intrinsic electrical nature of the atom. Electrical theory would have to include it. Electrical theory does not recognize gravity whatsoever. Gravity has no effect on the electron jumping to the atom above the one where it resides.

Paragraph 5
Gravity has never been measured physically only abstractly in mathematical models (cart before the horse). In addition it uses an arbitrary constant to "balance" out the measurements. Measuring gravity is complex and cumbersome when compared to other known scientific measurements because it can not be measured directly.

In contrast electromotive force is a known and real quantity. All one needs is a common voltmeter for a direct measurement.

Paragraph 6
You contradicted yourself in paragraph 1.

Originally posted by Araqiel
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

Have a look into Electric Universe theory. If gravity doesn't sit well with you, this might work better. I don't claim to be any sort of authority on anything really, but I do like to try and model things in my head, and I also have trouble with the theory. I believe that rotation and electromagnetism are intrinsically linked, far more important than mass, and that we do not understand photons properly. It doesn't make sense to me that light can have no detectable mass yet be attracted by a large enough gravitational field ie what we call black holes, and the observed behaviour of quasars seems to makes a mockery of our understanding of the limitations of light. Like I say this is just my feeling, if anyone can tell my why I'm talking nonsense please do. I'd rather be corrected once that be wrong forever, after all.

Black holes don't "pull on" photons or act as "photon magnets". Their mass warps space time, so as far as the photons are concerned, from their frame of reference, they are travelling in a straight line, but an observer can see that they are going round in circles and can't escape.

Here's an experiment that demonstrates how two spherical steel pétanque balls can be used to create a gravity field that will affect a torsion balance (a balance that depends entirely on the twisting of a material, in this case string). Using a time-lapse camera it demonstrates how the mass objects exert an attractive force.

A similar experiment can be done with floating toys in a bath-tub. They will always end up stuck at one side or another.

Originally posted by joer4x4
One thing scientist can't deny is that electromagnetic force has more interaction with physical bodies than gravity.

The interesting thing is that gravitational theory can not stand on it's own. When the theory doesn't work they call on some other theory to support it whether it be mystery meat or special sauce.

They can't harness it, recreate it, or prove it exists.

Now every scientist knows the universe is built on atoms and that all material is made of atoms. They also know that gravity has nothing to do with and is not intrinsic to the atom. The atom is fundamental and the groundwork for all things physical.

So how are things like gravity, dark matter, etc. possible?

With the atom in the picture gravity can only be an electrical force, chemical, or material. And according to scientist it none of these.

However, if gravity is taken out of the picture many theories and scientist are no longer relevant.

edit on 19-7-2013 by joer4x4 because: spelling

edit on 19-7-2013 by joer4x4 because: grammer

That's where the Higg's boson comes it - it somehow has an affinity for atoms as well as itself and likes to hang around the nucleii, causing them to acquire mass and inertia. The idea would be that these Higg's bosons would form a three-dimensional chain-mail fabric that holds everything in place.

Originally posted by joer4x4
One thing scientist can't deny is that electromagnetic force has more interaction with physical bodies than gravity.

The interesting thing is that gravitational theory can not stand on it's own. When the theory doesn't work they call on some other theory to support it whether it be mystery meat or special sauce.

They can't harness it, recreate it, or prove it exists.

Now every scientist knows the universe is built on atoms and that all material is made of atoms. They also know that gravity has nothing to do with and is not intrinsic to the atom. The atom is fundamental and the groundwork for all things physical.

So how are things like gravity, dark matter, etc. possible?

With the atom in the picture gravity can only be an electrical force, chemical, or material. And according to scientist it none of these.

However, if gravity is taken out of the picture many theories and scientist are no longer relevant.

edit on 19-7-2013 by joer4x4 because: spelling

edit on 19-7-2013 by joer4x4 because: grammer

That's where the Higg's boson comes it - it somehow has an affinity for atoms as well as itself and likes to hang around the nucleii, causing them to acquire mass and inertia. The idea would be that these Higg's bosons would form a three-dimensional chain-mail fabric that holds everything in place.

reply to post by Silicis n Volvo

It may have been a theory during the time of Newton, But it is a little more than that now. Scientists have very good ideas of how it works. Just because you think it sounds like a Vitamin doesnt mean its false.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no, science still doesn't have a clue how gravity works, or electricity or any explanation for force at all.

Force theory might as well be called magic theory.

While people like Tesla and Daimler made great strides in moving technology forward, our understanding of how all of this works hasn't moved much beyond Newton's day.

IMO, Einstein took us on a detour down the wrong path, that our institutions greatly encouraged, because it has turned modern science into something more akin to religion, than actual science, because institutions really don't like the whole discovery of truth process.

People obsessed with power would rather keep a mask on the face of truth.

reply to post by stormcell


I think the higgs experiment has been a disappointment to scientist to this day. It did not deliver what was expected.

I believe this idea was based on mathematical observation putting the cart before the horse again. An no wonder it didn't deliver. I mean really - how can you expect something to exist in the physical universe to be massless?

To me it defies common sense.

Originally posted by joer4x4
reply to post by stormcell

 

I think the higgs experiment has been a disappointment to scientist to this day. It did not deliver what was expected.

I believe this idea was based on mathematical observation putting the cart before the horse again. An no wonder it didn't deliver. I mean really - how can you expect something to exist in the physical universe to be massless?

To me it defies common sense.

edit on 20-7-2013 by joer4x4 because: (no reason given)

umm photons are apparently massless, and higgs fields were never proposed to be massless in any way. Rather they were proposed to explain mass in particles.

Please tell me this is a troll post?
Thanks for the laughs regardless.

Originally posted by katyehh
Please tell me this is a troll post?
Thanks for the laughs regardless.

It is, and I fell for it...twice

reply to post by Jonjonj


I think satire is more appropriate

Originally posted by Jonjonj

Originally posted by joer4x4
reply to post by stormcell

 

I think the higgs experiment has been a disappointment to scientist to this day. It did not deliver what was expected.

I believe this idea was based on mathematical observation putting the cart before the horse again. An no wonder it didn't deliver. I mean really - how can you expect something to exist in the physical universe to be massless?

To me it defies common sense.

edit on 20-7-2013 by joer4x4 because: (no reason given)

umm photons are apparently massless, and higgs fields were never proposed to be massless in any way. Rather they were proposed to explain mass in particles.

In fact the Higgs field mediating particle (the Higgs boson) is massive.

reply to post by joer4x4


Really the most important find in physics was proved and scientists were disappointed? No just the people who can't understand it were.

reply to post by joer4x4


The mathematics describes, and explains gravity very well. If you understand the mathematics, you don't have to look for another reason to explain gravity. Gravity exists because space-time is compressible and expandable.

Electric fields are too weak to hold atoms together. The binding force that holds atoms together atoms is the strong nuclear force (and to a much lesser extent, the weak nuclear force). These forces, though strong, operate at very small distances, much smaller than electromagnetic fields.

Electromagnetic attraction is what holds molecules together.

reply to post by chr0naut



The existence of nuclear forces has yet to proven. These, like gravity only exist in the math world. They are not dogma - just theories that scientist have been trying to prove for too long a time.

Math is a tool to help solve problems but it works only if the parameters are right. Mathematical solutions do not manifest themselves in the physical universe. One must create the necessary physical conditions to prove the math.

To understand math is to understand it is not proof in itself.

Originally posted by joer4x4
reply to post by chr0naut

 

The existence of nuclear forces has yet to proven. These, like gravity only exist in the math world. They are not dogma - just theories that scientist have been trying to prove for too long a time.

Math is a tool to help solve problems but it works only if the parameters are right. Mathematical solutions do not manifest themselves in the physical universe. One must create the necessary physical conditions to prove the math.

To understand math is to understand it is not proof in itself.

You may have noticed how magnets neither attract or repel certain materials like, for instance, glass. This points out the most obvious hole in your theory that electromagnetism explains all forces - it simply doesn't. Ask yourself why does glass, although it is measurably and provably unaffected by magnetism and is a non-conductor, still fall to earth?

The same mathematics that explains the other three forces explains electromagnetic forces, and why, and how, they are different. Electromagnetism itself is intimately integrated into a physics that has four distinct forces. The mathematics of the four forces is not some abstract fantasy but comes from observed and measured physics. We can apply the mathematics to understand exactly the magnitude and direction of the forces and can confirm that those forces always act as calculated.

The electromagnetic force is insufficient in strength to hold subatomic particles together and so, at a minimum, cannot be substituted for either the strong or weak nuclear forces.

The central tenet that theories of all forces are falsifiable is equally true for all forces. Scientific method has been used in each case to determine and investigate all forces (as opposed to what you stated earlier, which is not the case).

The fact that you believe that electromagnetic forces are more fully understood than the other three forces indicates, perhaps, a lack of knowledge on your part, not a faulty basis to the science of physics.

Nor is there a lack of knowledge of physics by many thousands of physicists and teachers whom you seem to believe have turned their backs on what would be a gaping theoretical hole if it existed.

reply to post by chr0naut


Photons are fairy dust.

The Higgs boson, is the very stuff of magic itself, that allows witches to turn people into toads, wizards to shoot lightening bolts out of their wands and or staffs, and the stuff that turns jewelry into magical amulets.