The Flaw In Your Logic Regarding Homosexuality

Originally posted by BDBinc
MY claim are against the OP statement's that he has provided you with no proof of
Human babies are not born homosexual.
1) It does not follow from animals humping same sex that homosexuality in man is natural .

K, this is just sad. I think its safe to say that you cannot back up your claim. Just admit it and move on.

ETA: here, seems you missed this great post by ahairlessape, so ill post it again:



www2.nau.edu...

A 2005 study reported genetic scans showing a clustering of the same genetic pattern among gay men on three chromosomes - chromosomes 7, 8, and 10. The regions on chromosome 7 and 8 were associated with male sexual orientation regardless of whether the man got them from his mother or father. The regions on chromosome 10 were only associated with male sexual orientation if they were inherited from the mother.

A study published in Human Genetics in February 2006 examined X chromosome inactivation in mothers of gay sons and mothers whose sons were not gay. Researchers found extreme differences between women who had gay sons and women who did not.

A study from 2006 said that researchers have known for years that a man's likelihood of being gay rises with the number of older biological brothers, but the new study found that the so-called "fraternal birth order effect" persists even if gay men were raised away from their biological families & that "the research suggests that the development of sexual orientation is influenced before birth."

So, now, where is your evidence that refutes this?

Originally posted by BDBinc
reply to post by tony9802

 

OK can do ...
when the OP said that animals mount other same sex animals means homosexuality in man is natural.Sounds even worse!

I personally feel it sounds much better and that the word is much more tasteful. I get tired of the other word *hump* because it seems so explicit to me. The word "mount" or "mounting" on the other hand, is more gestorial, it feels better as a gesture, and it's more mature terminology than "h*mp" or "h*mping". .

By the way the OP is trying to state that all species express their sexualities in one form or another. That sexual expression in and of itself is natural, normal and equal. Therefore homosexuality, in the human species, should be observed as something natural, normal and equal as well. Homosexuals are part of the human species. 4 is equal to a+b.

reply to post by BDBinc

It does not follow from animals humping same sex that homosexuality in man is natural .

We play these games a lot on ATS. We know how this plays out.

We present reason. You then change how "natural" was being defined.

Then we refute you changing the definition. Instead of addressing that you completely switch things around and make it all about "well if monkeys throw poop then..." instead of whether it exists in nature.

It exists in nature. Therefore it's natural. Humans are animals too. That's how it connects. It's not complicated. Lets move on to other things shall we?

Originally posted by BDBinc
I do not have to prove the OP's claims as I am disagreeing with them as they lack logic and reason.

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by BDBinc

 

If there is not a genetic component to homosexuality then explain how the differences between the amygdala in homosexuals and heterosexuals. Or the INAH3 region of the brain.

Are you claiming that fMRI"S have proved that babies have differences in the amygdala and this one finding makes a baby homosexual, homosexuality is due to the amygdala at birth?

Newsfalsh individuals have different brains and the more we use an areas the more we build it up.
It has nothing to do with homosexuality as it has not been found to be from an abnormal amygdala.
If there was a genetic component it would've been found -but there is not.
Babies have not been found to be born homosexual, no homosexual babies, the amygala center in the brain does not make someone homosexual.
So may false unproven claims and when they are questioned just more false claims and side stepping the original claims.
The OP said that because animals mount each other that it follows that homosexuality is natural in man.
No logic or reason.Wasn't sound logic then and still isn't now.

reply to post by BDBinc


Why are you ignoring all the source material provided?

reply to post by BDBinc


No genetic component?

healthland.time.com...

To be specific, the new theory suggests that homosexuality is caused by epigenetic marks, or “epi-marks,” related to sensitivity to hormones in the womb. These are compounds that sit on DNA and regulate how active, or inactive certain genes are, and also control when during development these genes are most prolific. Gavrilets and his colleagues believe that gene expression may regulate how a fetus responds to testosterone, the all-important male sex hormone. They further argue that epi-marks may help to buffer a female fetus from high levels of testosterone by suppressing receptors that respond to testosterone, for example, (thus ensuring normal fetal development even in the presence of a lot of testosterone) or to buffer a male fetus from low levels of testosterone by upregulating receptors that bind to the hormone (ensuring normal fetal development even in the absence of high levels of testosterone). Normally, these epi-marks are erased after they are activated, but if those marks are passed down to the next generation, the same epi-marks that protected a man in utero may cause oversensitivity to testosterone among his daughters, and the epi-marks that protected a woman in utero may lead to undersensitivity to testosterone among her sons.

OH SNAP!!! Someone sprayed the Troll Spray!!!

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by BDBinc

 

It does not follow from animals humping same sex that homosexuality in man is natural .

Humans are animals too.

edit on 2-7-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

No Humans are not animals they are human.Man is meant to aspire to be better than animals.
Some people behave worse than animals but it doesn't mean they should .

reply to post by BDBinc

No Humans are not animals they are human

So then I guess elephants arent animals, they are elephants. And Sharks arent animals they are sharks. And monkeys arent animals, they are monkeys.

Do you really believe this crap?

Man is meant to aspire to be better than animals.

And now, since you refuse on the other topic, I call for evidence on THIS claim, too.

Ill wait.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Nope .
Its just an unproven theory as epigentics is still in its infancy its a NEW line of study that does not factor in ALL influences.
Hormones don't cause homosexuality you would know this if you watched how scientists are trying to discover what causes homosexuality.
They have not proven anything.
Thanks for calling me a troll though.

Originally posted by HairlessApe
I'm writing this short-but-sweet thread in reaction to a comment made by another ATS'er on the thread titled "Why being Gay IS a Natural thing"

The comment was this:

Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

Now, as someone who's mental faculties run at acceptable levels, I simply laughed this off at first. Surely the average person couldn't hold such a blatantly bigoted and underthought position on the subject. But then I got to thinking - what if someone else sees this foolishness and begins to think it's a legitimate claim?

I'm sure, if confronted, this ATSer, as well as ANY person who thinks in such a logically-flawed manner would argue something along the lines of "I wasn't saying homosexuality is comparable to murder, rape, or cannibalism. I was just saying they're both naturally occuring." But clearly they ARE drawing that ridiculous comparison. If they weren't, they would have no reason to say something so incredibly inflammatory.
......

Think before you speak... Or write, for that matter.

Gonna try to help you out one last time.
As I've mentioned, the post you quoted was mine.

My point was, and is, that because something occurs in nature in different species --like homosexuality or the tendencies mentioned--does not make it normal, or acceptable behavior---or "Good."

The definitions of Good have a very wide range---from Conan's "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women" to things that are a little more relevant for civilization.

The more common definitions of "the Good" tend to involve those things, thoughts, or actions that promote 1)Life, 2)Liberty , 3)Health.

Plato's "mean between the extremes" is a little difficult--so many different kinds of extremes imaginable.

Biblical first commandment: "Be fruitful, multiply..." Ten commandments, Sermon on the Mount.

Inalienable Rights of the Declaration of Independence--Life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Scientology's "That which promotes the survival of the individual, the family, the group, and the nation"

And then Satanism's Anton LaVey--"Do what thou wilt"--We'll leave that one out.

Homosexuality does not promote Life---any species that should develop genetic or exposure mediated universal homosexuality would be eliminated in one generation. Heterosexuality is absolutely necessary for our life.

Homosexuality doe not promote Health. The health problems are well documented, from AIDs to HepB to different types of proctitis. The psychiatric problems seem obvious, but are essentially not discussed in the media.

Pursuit of Happiness--a good idea to the point where we're not interfering with others happiness, nor harming our health, nor insisting that others approve of our actions.

Homosexuality does not promote Liberty---many is the man who has been blackmailed or forced into actions that they would not otherwise have done because someone had knowledge of his actions.

____________________

As I've mentioned on this or the other thread, I believe there are at least three separate factors that can result in Homosexuality:
1)In-utero exposure to certain hormonal or environmental toxins at some points of development
2) X-linked genetic differences
3) lack of exposure to male role-model at young age.

To this I would add a fourth:
4) Mental Programming--through the MSM and the educational system.

None of these factors are the fault of the victim. However, they must still own their public actions and demands.

However, numbers 3 (frequently but not always) and 4 are the result of of the Welfare Statists manipulations. Those manipulations have worked also on the minds of heterosexuals. The result will be an increase in homosexuality (a long-standing goal of TPTB) when the counter-balance offered by previous generations' experiences are overwhelmed by the Media and Programmed Ed. We should be seeking a cure for #1, encouraging those with genetic predisposition to act in appropriate manners, and doing what we can to eliminate#3 and #4. However, the current attitudes of most people seems to be the opposite of what I have recommended, and the train will continue down this track at increasing speed.


_____________________

A possible 5th factor is over-population--like the rats in a cage example. Forgot that one.

reply to post by BDBinc


That was merely an example. As I have mentioned INAH3 region, a region associated with sexuality, is also different. We also see differences in things like prevalence of left handedness, direction of hair whorl, size of the hypothalamus, reaction to fluoxetine, larger superchiasmatic nucleus... It has even been found that homosexual males on average have a longer and thicker penis.

These are common differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. Not only that the differences are similar among homosexuals. For example the amygdala and INAH3 region in a significant number of homosexual males is similar to that of heterosexual females. The fact that these differences occur in a statistically significant portion of the homosexual population and that they tend towards a common trend clearly indicates something more than a choice.

Originally posted by BDBinc
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Nope .
Its just an unproven theory as epigentics is still in its infancy its a NEW line of study that does not factor in ALL influences.
Hormones don't cause homosexuality you would know this if you watched how scientists are trying to discover what causes homosexuality.
They have not proven anything.
Thanks for calling me a troll though.

edit on 2-7-2013 by BDBinc because: (no reason given)

You are moving goal posts. Evidence and proof are two different things. I provided evidence. Proof is nearly impossible. Especially for a mendicant who thinks humans aren't animals.

Originally posted by HairlessApe
I'm writing this short-but-sweet thread in reaction to a comment made by another ATS'er on the thread titled "Why being Gay IS a Natural thing"

The comment was this:

Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

Now, as someone who's mental faculties run at acceptable levels, I simply laughed this off at first. Surely the average person couldn't hold such a blatantly bigoted and underthought position on the subject. But then I got to thinking - what if someone else sees this foolishness and begins to think it's a legitimate claim?

I'm sure, if confronted, this ATSer, as well as ANY person who thinks in such a logically-flawed manner would argue something along the lines of "I wasn't saying homosexuality is comparable to murder, rape, or cannibalism. I was just saying they're both naturally occuring." But clearly they ARE drawing that ridiculous comparison. If they weren't, they would have no reason to say something so incredibly inflammatory.

In short, I only need ONE sentence to defeat your logic. But for comedic value, I'll add a second.

"Heterosexuality is naturally occuring - just like rape, murder, theft, and cannibalism. I'm not saying heterosexuality and these atrocious acts which don't involve two consenting adults are comparable, I'm just comparing them for absolutely no reason."

Think before you speak... Or write, for that matter.

correct response would have been that we are all in a fallen state here... all fall short... the word "sin" comes from archery "missing the mark"...

that is all, missing the mark, if your goal is to glorify God...

Christ is the path out... gay, straight, whoever you are, you need Christ!

reply to post by BDBinc


Im still left wondering why it is that you cherry pick which posts you will reply to...with the ones presenting evidence being the ones most ignored.

"It is error only and not truth that shrinks from inquiry. "-Thomas Paine

if it is being promoted my main stream media, films etc, as it obviously is, it is likely serving the agenda of tptb... breaking down families, dividing people and glorifying nihilism, as most main stream messages do, when not being openly satanic...

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by BDBinc

 

That was merely an example. As I have mentioned INAH3 region, a region associated with sexuality, is also different. We also see differences in things like prevalence of left handedness, direction of hair whorl, size of the hypothalamus, reaction to fluoxetine, larger superchiasmatic nucleus... It has even been found that homosexual males on average have a longer and thicker penis.

These are common differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. Not only that the differences are similar among homosexuals. For example the amygdala and INAH3 region in a significant number of homosexual males is similar to that of heterosexual females. The fact that these differences occur in a statistically significant portion of the homosexual population and that they tend towards a common trend clearly indicates something more than a choice.

and yet, the other major difference seems to be in lifestyle...

more suicidal, nihilistic and drug-taking without Christ...

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak

Originally posted by HairlessApe
I'm writing this short-but-sweet thread in reaction to a comment made by another ATS'er on the thread titled "Why being Gay IS a Natural thing"

The comment was this:

Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

Now, as someone who's mental faculties run at acceptable levels, I simply laughed this off at first. Surely the average person couldn't hold such a blatantly bigoted and underthought position on the subject. But then I got to thinking - what if someone else sees this foolishness and begins to think it's a legitimate claim?

I'm sure, if confronted, this ATSer, as well as ANY person who thinks in such a logically-flawed manner would argue something along the lines of "I wasn't saying homosexuality is comparable to murder, rape, or cannibalism. I was just saying they're both naturally occuring." But clearly they ARE drawing that ridiculous comparison. If they weren't, they would have no reason to say something so incredibly inflammatory.
......

Think before you speak... Or write, for that matter.

Gonna try to help you out one last time.
As I've mentioned, the post you quoted was mine.

My point was, and is, that because something occurs in nature in different species --like homosexuality or the tendencies mentioned--does not make it normal, or acceptable behavior---or "Good."

The definitions of Good have a very wide range---from Conan's "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women" to things that are a little more relevant for civilization.

The more common definitions of "the Good" tend to involve those things, thoughts, or actions that promote 1)Life, 2)Liberty , 3)Health.

Plato's "mean between the extremes" is a little difficult--so many different kinds of extremes imaginable.

Biblical first commandment: "Be fruitful, multiply..." Ten commandments, Sermon on the Mount.

Inalienable Rights of the Declaration of Independence--Life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Scientology's "That which promotes the survival of the individual, the family, the group, and the nation"

And then Satanism's Anton LaVey--"Do what thou wilt"--We'll leave that one out.

Homosexuality does not promote Life---any species that should develop genetic or exposure mediated universal homosexuality would be eliminated in one generation. Heterosexuality is absolutely necessary for our life.

Homosexuality doe not promote Health. The health problems are well documented, from AIDs to HepB to different types of proctitis. The psychiatric problems seem obvious, but are essentially not discussed in the media.

Pursuit of Happiness--a good idea to the point where we're not interfering with others happiness, nor harming our health, nor insisting that others approve of our actions.

Homosexuality does not promote Liberty---many is the man who has been blackmailed or forced into actions that they would not otherwise have done because someone had knowledge of his actions.

____________________

As I've mentioned on this or the other thread, I believe there are at least three separate factors that can result in Homosexuality:
1)In-utero exposure to certain hormonal or environmental toxins at some points of development
2) X-linked genetic differences
3) lack of exposure to male role-model at young age.

To this I would add a fourth:
4) Mental Programming--through the MSM and the educational system.

None of these factors are the fault of the victim. However, they must still own their public actions and demands.

However, numbers 3 (frequently but not always) and 4 are the result of of the Welfare Statists manipulations. Those manipulations have worked also on the minds of heterosexuals. The result will be an increase in homosexuality (a long-standing goal of TPTB) when the counter-balance offered by previous generations' experiences are overwhelmed by the Media and Programmed Ed. We should be seeking a cure for #1, encouraging those with genetic predisposition to act in appropriate manners, and doing what we can to eliminate#3 and #4. However, the current attitudes of most people seems to be the opposite of what I have recommended, and the train will continue down this track at increasing speed.

edit on 2-7-2013 by MuzzleBreak because: (no reason given)

_____________________

A possible 5th factor is over-population--like the rats in a cage example. Forgot that one.

edit on 2-7-2013 by MuzzleBreak because: (no reason given)

yup. plus Christ.

Xcalibur254

Then its just a scientifically flawed example then.
The differences in amygdala you speak of are not fMRI results from babies negating my claim babies are not homosexual.
Your claims gets worse.I must correct you as you have no proof.
Left handedness is not homosexuality, nor are all/most homosexuals left handed .
Size of the hypothalamus is not associated with homosexuality in babies or adults.
Babies have not been tested for their reaction to fluoxetine and the general reactions of homosexuals have been the same as other peoples reaction to fluoxetine there is no difference in dosage labeling for the drug.
A larger superchiasmatic nucleus has nothing to do with homosexuality
Homosexual males don't have longer and thicker penises than hetrosexual males.(internet poll?)

If you use parts of the brain( this is not isolated from influences and experiences) it can increase the size of amygdala and INAH3 regions regardless of your sexual preference.
You want to say homosexual people are different, thats a mistake, as we all vary in brain function and the size of the regions of the brain .
It ignores the basic fact we are all human beings and our brains develop differently as we act and are acted on. b)Babies are not born homosexual.
1)a It does not follow logic that animals mounting each other makes homosexuality in man natural.